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Thread: "Derek Chauvin used unauthorized neck restraint on George Floyd, training officer testifies"

  1. #1

    Post "Derek Chauvin used unauthorized neck restraint on George Floyd, training officer testifies"

    As national focus turns inwards (following decades of foreign policy projects to spread our freedoms abroad and defend our way of life), old race & policing related issues are bubbling up to surface again. This could also bring back into limelight sending of US Police for training to perpetual insecurity and confused racial doctrines based mideast countries.
    Source is a controversial fakenews outlet but this report appears to be non-fakenews:


    Derek Chauvin used unauthorized neck restraint on George Floyd, training officer testifies

    Use-of-force coordinator: Knee on neck after Floyd was under control and handcuffed ‘unauthorized’

    Minneapolis Police Department use-of-force training coordinator Johnny Mercil said the restraint used by officer Derek Chauvin on George Floyd was unnecessary. (The Washington Post)
    By Holly Bailey
    April 6, 2021

    MINNEAPOLIS — An officer who trained Derek Chauvin on techniques he could use to subdue suspects testified Tuesday that the neck restraint he used on George Floyd was not authorized because Floyd was already handcuffed and under control.

    Lt. Johnny Mercil, who oversees the Minneapolis department’s training on use of force and other defensive tactics, said that at the time of Floyd’s death on May 25, officers were permitted to restrain suspects by applying pressure to the side of a person’s neck to gain compliance, but only if they were actively resisting and if other techniques had not worked.


    Prosecutor Steve Schleicher showed Mercil a still taken from bystander video of Chauvin kneeling on Floyd’s neck and asked if Chauvin was performing “a MPD-trained neck restraint.”

    “No, sir,” Mercil replied. He said that “knee-on-the-neck is something that might happen” as officers try to gain control of suspects but said the act should stop when a person is no longer actively resisting. He said a neck restraint was considered “active aggression” under MPD use-of-force policy and that officers had been specifically warned to be careful of the neck because of the danger of rendering someone unconscious.

    washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/04/06/derek-chauvin-trial/



    Related

    MN cops learned Knee-On-Neck in Israeli training trip.

    Durham Becomes First City in US to Ban Cops From Going to Israel for ‘Military-Style’ Training

    Potentially-Related

    "Feeling The Hate In Jerusalem"

    The Jerusalem Post
    jpostJun 8, 2009 — feeling the hate 248 88 (photo credit: Screenshot from Youtube) ... for Obama's speech in Cairo on Thursday, director Max Blumenthal visited Jerusalem's downtown pub area with video camera ... "White power, f**k the ni***rs!"



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  3. #2

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Destroyed.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  5. #4
    He held Floyd down too long. He is guilty of manslaughter, not murder. Being held that long contributed to but didn't cause the death.

    Sometimes a knee to the neck can be warranted, like they had to deal with Floyd flipping out on drugs and needed to get him cuffed. They should have had him cuffed in less than a minute and got off his neck. 8 minutes was excessive force.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    He held Floyd down too long. He is guilty of manslaughter, not murder. Being held that long contributed to but didn't cause the death.

    Sometimes a knee to the neck can be warranted, like they had to deal with Floyd flipping out on drugs and needed to get him cuffed. They should have had him cuffed in less than a minute and got off his neck. 8 minutes was excessive force.
    You are wrong. You need to listen to or read about the cross examination. First of all, he was legally justified in using MORE force than he actually did, he used the minimal amount of force. Second, the same witness from the OP contradicted himself during cross examination and said that he himself had done the same thing and restrained an individual in the same way until EMS arrived.

    Third, we also learned yesterday that his knee wasn't on his neck. They showed photos from a different angle, and it was on his shoulder blade/back. Even the prosecutor is now referring to the knee on the "neck, or back".

    Chauvin is 5'9, 140 lbs. Floyd is 6'6 240 lbs. Even if the person you are holding down stops struggling, they are still able to continue to hold you down in those circumstances - especially where you have someone who has already physically resisted arrest, kicked police officers and is extremely physically large and strong - and you have a crowd of people chanting violent threats against the officers and have other officers holding them back.

    You really need to ponder why you continue to read such garbage news sources.

    https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/0...e-prosecution/
    Last edited by dannno; 04-07-2021 at 05:40 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  7. #6
    Can this guy really get a fair trial with everybody knowing that BLM is threatening to burn the country down if they don't get the out come they want? You and I did not cause the death of GF why should we have to worry about what BLM is going to do?

  8. #7
    Isn't it a conflict-of-interest to ask the training coordinator from MPD to testify in respect to what was authorized in this situation? If Chauvin is found guilty, lawsuits against MPD have almost no chance of succeeding since they can just cite the case as "criminal misconduct" by one of their officers, for which they are not liable. On the other hand, if Chauvin is acquitted, MPD will almost certainly be sued and the chances that the lawsuit(s) succeed is greater unless they can separately "prove" that Chauvin was civilly liable, even if he was not found criminally liable.

    And note that I'm not raising any kind of "red flag" about this relatively minor issue because the entire case is a gigantic red flag. No, cops should not be liberally applying all these extremely dangerous coercive combatives on people but the root cause of that is that police are not being held individually accountable along the entire spectrum of force (and injuries caused by that). Until somebody dies, literally nothing happens. And then once somebody dies, it becomes a "national tragedy" aka "national circus." So of course police are reckless. If the guy on the next shift has to sweep up the flour I spill, I'm going to chuck those flour bags as fast as possible, broken bags be damned. I don't have to be "literally Hitler" to not care about the flour-bags (or body-bags, as the case may be), it's just human nature to cut corners that are not actually enforced...
    Jesus Is Lord

  9. #8
    Yeah. I just saw the videos where it showed that his knee was on his shoulder. Any fricking news media could have shown this in May and saved the burning of cities.

    Also, the POC with his knee on Floyd's back would have caused more distress.

    I am sick of this manipulation!

    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    You are wrong. You need to listen to or read about the cross examination. First of all, he was legally justified in using MORE force than he actually did, he used the minimal amount of force. Second, the same witness from the OP contradicted himself during cross examination and said that he himself had done the same thing and restrained an individual in the same way until EMS arrived.

    Third, we also learned yesterday that his knee wasn't on his neck. They showed photos from a different angle, and it was on his shoulder blade/back. Even the prosecutor is now referring to the knee on the "neck, or back".

    Chauvin is 5'9, 140 lbs. Floyd is 6'6 240 lbs. Even if the person you are holding down stops struggling, they are still able to continue to hold you down in those circumstances - especially where you have someone who has already physically resisted arrest, kicked police officers and is extremely physically large and strong - and you have a crowd of people chanting violent threats against the officers and have other officers holding them back.

    You really need to ponder why you continue to read such garbage news sources.

    https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/0...e-prosecution/
    ...



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    8 minutes was excessive force.
    Perhaps we need a new term.... "cruel, but not unusual, punishment"...
    Jesus Is Lord

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Working Poor View Post
    You and I did not cause the death of GF why should we have to worry about what BLM is going to do?
    I didn't know that you had a girlfriend.
    ...

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    You are wrong. You need to listen to or read about the cross examination. First of all, he was legally justified in using MORE force than he actually did, he used the minimal amount of force. Second, the same witness from the OP contradicted himself during cross examination and said that he himself had done the same thing and restrained an individual in the same way until EMS arrived.

    Third, we also learned yesterday that his knee wasn't on his neck. They showed photos from a different angle, and it was on his shoulder blade/back. Even the prosecutor is now referring to the knee on the "neck, or back".

    Chauvin is 5'9, 140 lbs. Floyd is 6'6 240 lbs. Even if the person you are holding down stops struggling, they are still able to continue to hold you down in those circumstances - especially where you have someone who has already physically resisted arrest, kicked police officers and is extremely physically large and strong - and you have a crowd of people chanting violent threats against the officers and have other officers holding them back.

    You really need to ponder why you continue to read such garbage news sources.

    https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/0...e-prosecution/
    No matter where the knee was, 8 minutes is too long. I'm ok with the use of force, but not that long.

    Sometimes cops have to be brutal to do their job and I'm ok with that. But Floyd was held down too long.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    I didn't know that you had a girlfriend.
    Ahem , cough cough GF= George Floyd.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    You are wrong. You need to listen to or read about the cross examination. First of all, he was legally justified in using MORE force than he actually did, he used the minimal amount of force. Second, the same witness from the OP contradicted himself during cross examination and said that he himself had done the same thing and restrained an individual in the same way until EMS arrived.
    ...
    Legally justified? Following policy and procedures? Yeah, I’ll use other criteria to decide what is right, justified or moral.

    It’s quite a dilemma for the prosecution. Every police official witness (or Union leader) will eventually argue that the officer would be justified in walking up to the car and shooting him in the head before a word was said.
    Last edited by Brian4Liberty; 04-07-2021 at 10:35 PM.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
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    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  16. #14
    "Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."

    Calvin Coolidge

  17. #15
    What a $#@!ing liar. I apologize in advance if this post turns out to be too long, but I just have to share this. Some people, masquerading as saviors under the moniker Anonymous, took down the Minneapolis city government website and the police department website immediately after the incident. I don't know if this is still there. Probably not, considering they are NOW saying that they did not authorize that type of restraint.

    Here is Section 5-300 - Use Of Force
    Subsections 5-301 to 5-311

    Pay very close attention to 5-311.

    5-300 Use of Force
    5-301 PURPOSE (10/16/02) (08/17/07) (07/28/16)
    A. Sanctity of life and the protection of the public shall be the cornerstones of the MPD’s use of force policy.

    B. The purpose of this chapter is to provide all sworn MPD employees with clear and consistent policies and procedures regarding the use of force while engaged in the discharge of their official duties. (Note: MPD Training Unit Lesson Plans – Use of Force, are used as a reference throughout this chapter.)

    5-301.01 POLICY (10/16/02) (08/17/07)
    Based on the Fourth Amendment’s “reasonableness” standard, sworn MPD employees shall only use the amount of force that is objectively reasonable in light of the facts and circumstances known to that employee at the time force is used. The force used shall be consistent with current MPD training.
    5-301.02 STATE REQUIREMENTS (10/11/02)
    The MPD shall comply with Minn. Stat. §626.8452 to establish and enforce a written policy governing the use of force, including deadly force and state-mandated pre-service and in-service training in the use of force for all sworn MPD employees.(08/17/07)

    5-302 USE OF FORCE DEFINITIONS (10/16/02) (10/01/10)
    Active Aggression: Behavior initiated by a subject that may or may not be in response to police efforts to bring the person into custody or control. A subject engages in active aggression when presenting behaviors that constitute an assault or the circumstances reasonably indicate that an assault or injury to any person is likely to occur at any moment. (10/01/10) (04/16/12)
    Active Resistance: A response to police efforts to bring a person into custody or control for detainment or arrest. A subject engages in active resistance when engaging in physical actions (or verbal behavior reflecting an intention) to make it more difficult for officers to achieve actual physical control. (10/01/10) (04/16/12)
    Deadly Force: Minn. Stat. §609.066 states that: “Force which the actor uses with the purpose of causing, or which the actor should reasonably know creates a substantial risk of causing death or great bodily harm. The intentional discharge of a firearm other than a firearm loaded with less-lethal munitions and used by a peace officer within the scope of official duties, in the direction of another person, or at a vehicle in which another person is believed to be, constitutes deadly force.” (10/01/10)
    Flight: Is an effort by the subject to avoid arrest or capture by fleeing without the aid of a motor vehicle. (10/01/10)
    Great Bodily Harm: Bodily injury which creates a high probability of death, or which causes serious permanent disfigurement, or which causes a permanent or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ, or other serious bodily harm.
    Non-Deadly Force: Force that does not have the reasonable likelihood of causing or creating a substantial risk of death or great bodily harm. This includes, but is not limited to, physically subduing, controlling, capturing, restraining or physically managing any person. It also includes the actual use of any less-lethal and non-lethal weapons. (08/17/07)
    Objectively Reasonable Force: The amount and type of force that would be considered rational and logical to an “objective” officer on the scene, supported by facts and circumstances known to an officer at the time force was used. (08/17/07)
    Passive Resistance: A response to police efforts to bring a person into custody or control for detainment or arrest. This is behavior initiated by a subject, when the subject does not comply with verbal or physical control efforts, yet the subject does not attempt to defeat an officer’s control efforts. (10/01/10) (04/16/12)
    Use of Force: Any intentional police contact involving: (08/17/07) (10/01/10)
    The use of any weapon, substance, vehicle, equipment, tool, device or animal that inflicts pain or produces injury to another; or
    Any physical strike to any part of the body of another;
    Any physical contact with a person that inflicts pain or produces injury to another; or
    Any restraint of the physical movement of another that is applied in a manner or under circumstances likely to produce injury.

    5-303 AUTHORIZED USE OF FORCE (10/16/02) (08/17/07)
    Minn. Stat. §609.06 subd. 1 states, “When authorized…except as otherwise provided in subdivision 2, reasonable force may be used upon or toward the person of another without the other’s consent when the following circumstances exist or the actor reasonably believes them to exist:
    When used by a public officer or one assisting a public officer under the public officer’s direction:
    In effecting a lawful arrest; or
    In the execution of legal process; or
    In enforcing an order of the court; or
    In executing any other duty imposed upon the public officer by law.”
    In addition to Minn. Stat. §609.06 sub. 1, MPD policies shall utilize the United States Supreme Court decision in Graham vs Connor as a guideline for reasonable force.
    The Graham vs Connor case references that:
    “Because the test of reasonableness under the Fourth Amendment is not capable of precise definition or mechanical application, its proper application requires careful attention to the facts and circumstances of each particular case, including:
    The severity of the crime at issue,
    Whether the suspect poses an immediate threat to the safety of the officers or others, and;
    Whether he is actively resisting arrest or attempting to evade arrest by flight.
    The "reasonableness" of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of the reasonable officer on the scene, rather than with the 20/20 vision of hindsight.
    The calculus of reasonableness must embody allowance for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split-second judgments - in circumstances that are tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving - about the amount of force that is necessary in a particular situation.”
    Authorized use of force requires careful attention to the facts and circumstances of each case. Sworn MPD employees shall write a detailed, comprehensive report for each instance in which force was used.

    5-303.01 DUTY TO INTERVENE (07/28/16)
    (A-D)
    A. Sworn employees have an obligation to protect the public and other employees.

    B. It shall be the duty of every sworn employee present at any scene where physical force is being applied to either stop or attempt to stop another sworn employee when force is being inappropriately applied or is no longer required.


    5-304 THREATENING THE USE OF FORCE AND DE-ESCALATION (10/16/02) (06/01/12) (07/28/16)
    (A-D)
    A. Threatening the Use of Force

    As an alternative and/or the precursor to the actual use of force, MPD officers shall consider verbally announcing their intent to use force, including displaying an authorized weapon as a threat of force, when reasonable under the circumstances. The threatened use of force shall only occur in situations that an officer reasonably believes may result in the authorized use of force. This policy shall not be construed to authorize unnecessarily harsh language. (08/17/07) (07/28/16)

    B. De-escalation

    Whenever reasonable according to MPD policies and training, officers shall use de-escalation tactics to gain voluntary compliance and seek to avoid or minimize use of physical force. (06/01/12) (07/28/16)

    1. When safe and feasible, officers shall:

    a. Attempt to slow down or stabilize the situation so that more time, options and resources are available.

    i. Mitigating the immediacy of threat gives officers more time to call additional officers or specialty units and to use other resources.

    ii. The number of officers on scene may make more force options available and may help reduce overall force used.

    b. Consider whether a subject’s lack of compliance is a deliberate attempt to resist or an inability to comply based on factors including, but not limited to:

    · Medical conditions
    · Mental impairment
    · Developmental disability
    · Physical limitation
    · Language barrier
    · Influence of drug or alcohol use
    · Behavioral crisis

    Such consideration, when time and circumstances reasonably permit, shall then be balanced against incident facts when deciding which tactical options are the most appropriate to resolve the situation safely.

    2. De-escalation tactics include, but are not limited to:

    · Placing barriers between an uncooperative subject and an officer.
    · Containing a threat.
    · Moving from a position that exposes officers to potential threats to a safer position.
    · Reducing exposure to a potential threat using distance, cover or concealment.
    · Communication from a safe position intended to gain the subject’s compliance, using verbal persuasion, advisements or warnings.
    · Avoidance of physical confrontation, unless immediately necessary (e.g. to protect someone or stop dangerous behavior).
    · Using verbal techniques to calm an agitated subject and promote rational decision making.
    · Calling additional resources to assist, including more officers, CIT officers and officers equipped with less-lethal tools.


    5-305 AUTHORIZED USE OF DEADLY FORCE (08/17/07) (08/18/17)

    A. Statutory Authorization

    Minn. Stat. §609.066 sub. 2 – “The use of deadly force by a peace officer in the line of duty is justified only when necessary:

    · To protect the peace officer or another from apparent death or great bodily harm;
    · To effect the arrest or capture, or prevent the escape, of a person whom the peace officer knows or has reasonable grounds to believe has committed or attempted to commit a felony involving the use or threatened use of deadly force, or;
    · To effect the arrest or capture, or prevent the escape, of a person who the officer knows or has reasonable grounds to believe has committed or attempted to commit a felony if the officer reasonably believes that the person will cause death or great bodily harm if the person’s apprehension is delayed.”

    B. United States Supreme Court: Tennessee v. Garner

    In addition to Minn. Stat. §609.066, MPD policies shall utilize the United States Supreme Court decision in Tennessee v. Garner as a guideline for the use of deadly force.

    The Tennessee v. Garner case references that:

    “Apprehension by the use of deadly force is a seizure subject to the Fourth Amendment’s reasonableness requirement.”

    “The use of deadly force to prevent the escape of all felony suspects, whatever the circumstances, is constitutionally unreasonable.”

    C. Sworn MPD employees shall recognize that:

    · The use of a firearm, vehicle, less-lethal or non-lethal weapon, or other improvised weapon may constitute the use of deadly force.
    · This policy does not prevent a sworn employee from drawing a firearm, or being prepared to use a firearm in threatening situations.

    D. For the safety of the public, warning shots shall not be fired.

    E. Moving/Fleeing Motor Vehicles

    1. Officers are strongly discouraged from discharging firearms at or from a moving motor vehicle.

    2. Officers should consider their positioning and avoid placing themselves in the path of a vehicle when possible. If officers find themselves positioned in the path of a vehicle they should, when possible, tactically consider moving out of the path of the vehicle instead of discharging a firearm at it or any of its occupants.

    F. Officers’ Actions that Unnecessarily Place Themselves, Suspects, or the Public at Risk

    1. Officers shall use reasonableness, sound tactics and available options during encounters to maximize the likelihood that they can safely resolve the situation.

    2. A lack of reasonable or sound tactics can limit options available to officers, and unnecessarily place officers and the public at risk.

    5-306 USE OF FORCE – REPORTING AND POST INCIDENT REQUIREMENTS (08/17/07)
    Any sworn MPD employee who uses force shall comply with the following requirements:

    Medical Assistance: As soon as reasonably practical, determine if anyone was injured and render medical aid consistent with training and request Emergency Medical Service (EMS) if necessary.

    Supervisor Notification and CAPRS Reporting Requirements

    No CAPRS Report Required

    Unless an injury or alleged injury has occurred, the below listed force does not require a CAPRS report or supervisor notification.

    · Escort Holds
    · Joint Manipulations
    · Nerve Pressure Points (Touch Pressure)
    · Handcuffing
    · Gun drawing or pointing

    CAPRS Report Required – No Supervisor Notification required

    The following listed force requires a CAPRS report, but does not require supervisor notification.

    · Takedown Techniques
    · Chemical Agent Exposures

    CAPRS Report Required - Supervisor Notification Required

    All other force, injuries or alleged injury incidents require both a CAPRS report and supervisor notification. The sworn employee shall remain on scene and immediately notify a supervisor by phone or radio of the force that was used.

    Supervisors shall not conduct a force review on their own use of force. Any other supervisor of any rank shall conduct the force review. (04/16/12)

    A CAPRS report entitled “FORCE” shall be completed as soon as practical, but no later than the end of that shift. A supplement describing the use of force incident in detail shall be completed and entered directly into the CAPRS reporting system (no handwritten force reports). Employees shall ensure that all applicable force portions of the CAPRS report are completed in full.

    Sworn employees shall complete a CAPRS report entitled "PRIORI" for all incidents in which a person has a prior injury, or prior alleged injury, and there is actual physical contact or transportation by the police.

    Transfer of Custody

    Prior to transferring custody of a subject that force was used upon, sworn MPD employees shall verbally notify the receiving agency or employee of:

    · The type of force used,
    · Any injuries sustained (real or alleged) and
    · Any medical aid / EMS rendered



    5-307 SUPERVISOR FORCE REVIEW (08/17/07) (12/15/09)


    On-duty Supervisor Responsibilities

    The supervisor who is notified of a Use of Force incident by any sworn MPD employee shall:

    1. Determine if the incident meets the criteria for a Critical Incident. If so, follow Critical Incident Policy (P/P 7-810). (09/23/15)

    2. Instruct the involved employees to have the subject of the use of force remain on-scene until the supervisor arrives, if it is reasonable to do so.

    · If the subject of the use of force does not remain on-scene, the supervisor shall go to the subject’s location, if necessary, to complete the investigation.

    3. Respond to the incident scene and conduct a preliminary investigation of the Use of Force incident. (09/23/15)

    a. Debrief the employee(s) who engaged in the use of force.

    b. Note any reported injury (actual or alleged) to any individual involved.

    c. Photograph: (09/23/15)

    · the force subject, including any visible injuries
    · the immediate area of the force event
    · injuries to any other individual involved in the force event
    · damage to equipment or uniforms caused by the force event

    d. Note any medical aid/EMS rendered to any individual involved.

    e. Locate and review any evidence related to the force incident (e.g. MVR, security video, private cameras, etc.). (12/15/09)

    f. Ensure any on-scene evidence is preserved and collected.

    g. Locate and identify witnesses to the use of force incident. (12/15/09)

    h. Obtain statements from witnesses to the use of force incident.

    i. Contact the Internal Affairs Unit Commander immediately by phone if the force used appears to be unreasonable or appears to constitute possible misconduct. (04/16/12)

    4. Complete and submit the Supervisor Use of Force Review and Summary in CAPRS as soon as practical, but prior to the end of that shift.

    a. Ensure that all actions taken in the preliminary investigation process and the information obtained from these actions are included in the Summary and that all other relevant information is entered in the appropriate sections of the report. (12/15/09)

    b. If, based upon the totality of the information available at the time of the report, the supervisor feels that the use of force may have been unreasonable or not within policy, the supervisor will: (04/16/12)

    · State in the supervisor force review that they believe the use of force requires further review; and
    · Notify the commander of Internal Affairs of their findings that the force requires further review.

    5. Review all sworn employees’ CAPRS reports and supplements related to the use of force incident for completeness and accuracy.

    5-308 NOTIFICATION OF FIREARM DISCHARGES (10/16/02) (04/30/15)
    A. Employee Responsibility

    Any employee who discharges a firearm, whether on or off duty, shall make direct contact with their immediate supervisor or the on-duty Watch Commander and the local jurisdiction as soon as possible except: (08/17/07) (04/30/15) (04/05/16)

    · While at an established target range;
    · While conducting authorized ballistics tests;
    · When engaged in legally recognized activities while off-duty.

    B. Supervisor Responsibility

    1. The supervisor shall respond to any scene in which an employee has discharged a firearm while on-duty or in the course of duty. (04/30/15) (04/05/16)

    2. The supervisor is responsible for notifying the Watch Commander and when appropriate, the employee’s Deputy Chief and the on-duty Homicide investigator. This does not include the discharge of a firearm with the intention of dispatching an animal, unless it results in injury to a person. (04/30/15) (04/05/16)

    3. Notifications to the Internal Affairs Unit shall be made in accordance with the Internal Affairs Call-Out Notification Policy (P/P 2-101). (04/05/16)

    4. The advised supervisor shall ensure that drug and alcohol testing is conducted in accordance with the conditions and procedures in the MPD Drug & Alcohol Testing Policy (P/P Section 3-1000). (04/30/15)

    5. At any officer-involved shooting incident in which a person is shot, the Critical Incident Policy (P/P Section 7-800) shall be followed. (04/30/15)

    C. Reporting Firearms Discharges to the State (10/16/02) (04/30/15)

    Minn. Stat. §626.553 requires the Chief of Police to report to the State Commissioner of Public Safety whenever a peace officer discharges a firearm in the course of duty, other than for training purposes or when killing an animal that is sick, injured or dangerous. Written notification of the incident must be filed within 30 days of the incident. The notification shall include information concerning the reason for and circumstances surrounding discharge of the firearm. The Internal Affairs Unit supervisor shall be responsible for filing the required form(s) with the State Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. (04/05/16)

    5-309 WRITTEN REPORT ON DISCHARGE OF FIREARMS (10/16/02)
    All employee firearm discharges that require notification, other than Critical Incidents, shall be reported in CAPRS, including a supplement, by the employee involved and the supervisor who was notified. The report shall be titled, “DISWEAP.” The supervisor shall then complete a Supervisor Force Review. (08/17/07)
    If the involved employee is unable to make a CAPRS report, the supervisor shall initiate the CAPRS report.
    The Watch Commander shall include all case numbers on the Watch Commander log.
    5-310 USE OF UNAUTHORIZED WEAPONS (10/16/02) (08/17/07)
    Sworn MPD employees shall only carry and use MPD approved weapons for which they are currently trained and authorized to use through the MPD Training Unit. If an exigent circumstance exists that poses an imminent threat to the safety of the employee or the public requiring the immediate use an improvised weapon of opportunity, the employee may use the weapon. (08/17/07)

    5-311 USE OF NECK RESTRAINTS AND CHOKE HOLDS (10/16/02) (08/17/07) (10/01/10) (04/16/12)
    DEFINITIONS I.
    Choke Hold: Deadly force option. Defined as applying direct pressure on a person’s trachea or airway (front of the neck), blocking or obstructing the airway (04/16/12)
    Neck Restraint: Non-deadly force option. Defined as compressing one or both sides of a person’s neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway (front of the neck). Only sworn employees who have received training from the MPD Training Unit are authorized to use neck restraints. The MPD authorizes two types of neck restraints: Conscious Neck Restraint and Unconscious Neck Restraint. (04/16/12)
    Conscious Neck Restraint: The subject is placed in a neck restraint with intent to control, and not to render the subject unconscious, by only applying light to moderate pressure. (04/16/12)
    Unconscious Neck Restraint: The subject is placed in a neck restraint with the intention of rendering the person unconscious by applying adequate pressure. (04/16/12)
    PROCEDURES/REGULATIONS II.
    The Conscious Neck Restraint may be used against a subject who is actively resisting. (04/16/12)
    The Unconscious Neck Restraint shall only be applied in the following circumstances: (04/16/12)
    On a subject who is exhibiting active aggression, or;
    For life saving purposes, or;
    On a subject who is exhibiting active resistance in order to gain control of the subject; and if lesser attempts at control have been or would likely be ineffective.
    Neck restraints shall not be used against subjects who are passively resisting as defined by policy. (04/16/12)
    After Care Guidelines (04/16/12)
    After a neck restraint or choke hold has been used on a subject, sworn MPD employees shall keep them under close observation until they are released to medical or other law enforcement personnel.
    An officer who has used a neck restraint or choke hold shall inform individuals accepting custody of the subject, that the technique was used on the subject.


    And now they are deliberately clearing all trace of Section 5-311 on neck restraints to enable mob justice and save their asses.
    Haul out that picture of Stonewall, tack it up with an old gray pin
    Raise up them Stars and Bars, the South shall rise again!"- Johnny Rebel


    All I know is that to see and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell, Rivers of Blood Speech


    "Unless we make sure that there is no infiltration of our country, then just as certain as you sit there, in the period of our lives you will see a red world."
    -Joseph McCarthy

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Working Poor View Post
    Can this guy really get a fair trial with everybody knowing that BLM is threatening to burn the country down if they don't get the out come they want? You and I did not cause the death of GF why should we have to worry about what BLM is going to do?
    Probably not. The best this guy can hope for is a hung jury, in which case the prosecution will try again. If he is acquitted, he walks and game over. But that seems highly unlikely.
    Haul out that picture of Stonewall, tack it up with an old gray pin
    Raise up them Stars and Bars, the South shall rise again!"- Johnny Rebel


    All I know is that to see and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell, Rivers of Blood Speech


    "Unless we make sure that there is no infiltration of our country, then just as certain as you sit there, in the period of our lives you will see a red world."
    -Joseph McCarthy



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Working Poor View Post
    Can this guy really get a fair trial with everybody knowing that BLM is threatening to burn the country down if they don't get the out come they want? You and I did not cause the death of GF why should we have to worry about what BLM is going to do?
    Couple of days ago noticed some documentary on LA Rodney King riots on youtoob news page, was wondering if it was trending up due to such speculations in social media related to this trial. Or could be because it's April, per wiki LA riots started in April 1992 and 29th anniversary was coming up.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Legally justified? Following policy and procedures? Yeah, I’ll use other criteria to decide what is right, justified or moral.
    That is more referring to the outcome of the case, it's difficult to prosecute somebody for following the training procedures.

    But for a moral justification, how about the fact that Chauvin is 5'9" 140 lbs and George Floyd was 6'6" 240 lbs? He was being detained over passing a counterfeit bill. Unfortunately, because of the war on drugs, he had to eat his drugs and OD'd on fentanyl. I'm not saying it was all George Floyd's fault, if it wasn't for the drug issue he probably wouldn't have been as concerned about being detained and having his car searched, etc..

    But I'm not sure what you want Chauvin to have done differently, apart from choosing a different career path.
    Last edited by dannno; 04-07-2021 at 11:39 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    No matter where the knee was, 8 minutes is too long. I'm ok with the use of force, but not that long.

    Sometimes cops have to be brutal to do their job and I'm ok with that. But Floyd was held down too long.
    The guy in the OP when cross examined admitted that if he had passed out, if he woke back up he could have continued to be aggressive. Did you even see all of the videos of him resisting arrest? They went on for a long time. Also, by then you had bystanders who were threatening the officers. The defense made a pretty good case that part of the reason Chauvin had to keep him in that position was to ensure things didn't get out of hand again, because they had an angry crowd who may have come in to aid him.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    The guy in the OP when cross examined admitted that if he had passed out, if he woke back up he could have continued to be aggressive. Did you even see all of the videos of him resisting arrest? They went on for a long time. Also, by then you had bystanders who were threatening the officers. The defense made a pretty good case that part of the reason Chauvin had to keep him in that position was to ensure things didn't get out of hand again, because they had an angry crowd who may have come in to aid him.
    Man, take a step back. You're seriously taking the State line on this??!

    The reason Chauvin "HAD" to keep him in that position is because a poor guy was laid off because of state covid policies, then he tried to swindle a pack of smokes. Then the Keystone Kop agents of the State escalated the situation into putting the guy face down in the street in front of a gathering crowd.

    And yes, this cop was just doing his job, as evidenced by all the other cops supporting the arrest and methods. I don't think racism had anything to do with this - this is a problem with the enforcement edicts of the State. Agents of the State murdered a citizen. Period.

    It's kinda sick to break it down to the last few minutes as a justification for why the cops "had" to do anything.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Man, take a step back. You're seriously taking the State line on this??!

    The reason Chauvin "HAD" to keep him in that position is because a poor guy was laid off because of state covid policies, then he tried to swindle a pack of smokes. Then the Keystone Kop agents of the State escalated the situation into putting the guy face down in the street in front of a gathering crowd.

    And yes, this cop was just doing his job, as evidenced by all the other cops supporting the arrest and methods. I don't think racism had anything to do with this - this is a problem with the enforcement edicts of the State. Agents of the State murdered a citizen. Period.

    It's kinda sick to break it down to the last few minutes as a justification for why the cops "had" to do anything.
    This video seems very similar to the Tony Timpa video. No one would watch that and assume that the officers didn't kill that man, but the misdemeanors they were charged with were dismissed.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe McCarthy View Post
    5-311 USE OF NECK RESTRAINTS AND CHOKE HOLDS (10/16/02) (08/17/07) (10/01/10) (04/16/12)
    DEFINITIONS I.
    Choke Hold: Deadly force option. Defined as applying direct pressure on a person’s trachea or airway (front of the neck), blocking or obstructing the airway (04/16/12)
    Neck Restraint: Non-deadly force option. Defined as compressing one or both sides of a person’s neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway (front of the neck). Only sworn employees who have received training from the MPD Training Unit are authorized to use neck restraints. The MPD authorizes two types of neck restraints: Conscious Neck Restraint and Unconscious Neck Restraint. (04/16/12)
    Conscious Neck Restraint: The subject is placed in a neck restraint with intent to control, and not to render the subject unconscious, by only applying light to moderate pressure. (04/16/12)
    Unconscious Neck Restraint: The subject is placed in a neck restraint with the intention of rendering the person unconscious by applying adequate pressure. (04/16/12)
    PROCEDURES/REGULATIONS II.
    The Conscious Neck Restraint may be used against a subject who is actively resisting. (04/16/12)
    The Unconscious Neck Restraint shall only be applied in the following circumstances: (04/16/12)
    On a subject who is exhibiting active aggression, or;
    For life saving purposes, or;
    On a subject who is exhibiting active resistance in order to gain control of the subject; and if lesser attempts at control have been or would likely be ineffective.
    Neck restraints shall not be used against subjects who are passively resisting as defined by policy. (04/16/12)
    After Care Guidelines (04/16/12)
    After a neck restraint or choke hold has been used on a subject, sworn MPD employees shall keep them under close observation until they are released to medical or other law enforcement personnel.
    An officer who has used a neck restraint or choke hold shall inform individuals accepting custody of the subject, that the technique was used on the subject.


    And now they are deliberately clearing all trace of Section 5-311 on neck restraints to enable mob justice and save their asses.
    Technical note: Section 5-311 is not talking about the neck pin used on Floyd, it is talking about choke restraints (applied to the front of the neck) using the hands, arms or legs. Such chokes can render a person unconscious without killing them (and they can also cause death) by disrupting the blood supply to the brain as well as constricting air-flow (thus reducing oxygenation of the blood). The neck pin puts pressure on the spine at the base of the skull and can cause serious injury or death by pinching, rupturing or even severing the spinal cord.
    Jesus Is Lord

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe McCarthy View Post
    What a $#@!ing liar. I apologize in advance if this post turns out to be too long, but I just have to share this. Some people, [COLOR=#000000][FONT=verdana]masquerading as saviors under the moniker Anonymous, took down the Minneapolis city government website and the police department website immediately after the incident. I don't know if this is still there. Probably not, considering they are NOW saying that they did not authorize that type of restraint.
    ...
    Interesting. Like I said before, I don't doubt that any and all use of force is trained and “authorized”. Polices and procedures are always followed.

    CYA is part of the design.

    But... those guidelines also provide some ammo for the prosecution. Namely:

    ...
    5-303.01 DUTY TO INTERVENE (07/28/16)
    (A-D)
    A. Sworn employees have an obligation to protect the public and other employees.

    B. It shall be the duty of every sworn employee present at any scene where physical force is being applied to either stop or attempt to stop another sworn employee when force is being inappropriately applied or is no longer required.
    ...
    b. Consider whether a subject’s lack of compliance is a deliberate attempt to resist or an inability to comply based on factors including, but not limited to:

    · Medical conditions
    · Mental impairment
    · Developmental disability
    · Physical limitation
    · Language barrier
    · Influence of drug or alcohol use
    · Behavioral crisis

    ...
    That is where they violated policies and procedures.

    Of course everything is up to individual discretion and judgement in the heat of the situation, which is another big CYA.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    Technical note: Section 5-311 is not talking about the neck pin used on Floyd, it is talking about choke restraints (applied to the front of the neck) using the hands, arms or legs. Such chokes can render a person unconscious without killing them (and they can also cause death) by disrupting the blood supply to the brain as well as constricting air-flow (thus reducing oxygenation of the blood). The neck pin puts pressure on the spine at the base of the skull and can cause serious injury or death by pinching, rupturing or even severing the spinal cord.
    I believe this is the relevant part that applies to this case:

    Neck Restraint: Non-deadly force option. Defined as compressing one or both sides of a person’s neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway (front of the neck).
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Man, take a step back. You're seriously taking the State line on this??!

    The reason Chauvin "HAD" to keep him in that position is because a poor guy was laid off because of state covid policies, then he tried to swindle a pack of smokes. Then the Keystone Kop agents of the State escalated the situation into putting the guy face down in the street in front of a gathering crowd.

    And yes, this cop was just doing his job, as evidenced by all the other cops supporting the arrest and methods. I don't think racism had anything to do with this - this is a problem with the enforcement edicts of the State. Agents of the State murdered a citizen. Period.

    It's kinda sick to break it down to the last few minutes as a justification for why the cops "had" to do anything.
    I'm not defending the "state", they are the ones who made the drug laws that caused Floyd to eat all his drugs. Chauvin wasn't enforcing drug laws, he was enforcing counterfeit laws, which is essentially theft. It would be nice if they would enforce those against the federal reserve as well, but that's another story.

    I presume you saw the video where he went up to his car initially, and Floyd started reaching for random $#@! in his car. Have you seen all the videos on youtube of officers being shot during traffic stops?
    Last edited by dannno; 04-08-2021 at 09:50 AM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    That is more referring to the outcome of the case, it's difficult to prosecute somebody for following the training procedures.

    But for a moral justification, how about the fact that Chauvin is 5'9" 140 lbs and George Floyd was 6'6" 240 lbs? He was being detained over passing a counterfeit bill. Unfortunately, because of the war on drugs, he had to eat his drugs and OD'd on fentanyl. I'm not saying it was all George Floyd's fault, if it wasn't for the drug issue he probably wouldn't have been as concerned about being detained and having his car searched, etc..

    But I'm not sure what you want Chauvin to have done differently, apart from choosing a different career path.
    Hindsight is 20/20, and it’s hard to evaluate a situation unless you are there in the heat of the moment, but if I was to Monday morning quarterback this, I would recommend sitting him up against the car after handcuffed, and asking him why he can't breath, and if he needed medical treatment. Were those cops carrying Narcan?

    But I was not there, and not angry that he wouldn't get into the car.
    Last edited by Brian4Liberty; 04-08-2021 at 10:01 AM.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    I believe this is the relevant part that applies to this case:
    In context, it just doesn't make sense. A pin to the back of the neck on a prone person could not compress "one or both sides" of a person's neck unless they were being pinned down onto something else, like a thick rope under tension.

    I realize the language "The MPD authorizes two types of neck restraints" could be construed to mean that pinning someone by their neck when prone is not authorized but I think that's a misreading of the entire section, which isn't addressing pins at all.

    I haven't dug into the details of the legal case, but I'm willing to bet that a massive percentage of the police in this country have routinely used the neck-pin that was used on Floyd, and that in many of those cases, it has been applied for longer durations than 8 minutes. The point is that Chauvin's use-of-force in this situation is (or at least was) pretty routine. This is nowhere near Rodney King territory. My personal view is that police should not be using this technique (except in limited applications, such as against soft ground, or as part of a momentary control while performing some other restraint technique), but I also think it's (yet another) travesty of justice to sacrifice Chauvin to appease the BLM mob, which is what is really happening here.
    Jesus Is Lord

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Hindsight is 20/20, and it’s hard to evaluate a situation unless you are there in the heat of the moment, but if I was to Monday morning quarterback this, I would recommend sitting him up against the car after handcuffed, and asking him why he can't breath, and if he needed medical treatment. Were those cops carrying Narcan?

    But I was not there, and not angry that he wouldn't get into the car.
    I got word yesterday that the reason the EMS and fire department took so long to get there (they were called to come on site LOOONG before) was due to some communication issues at the call center or something..

    That is why he died in police hands, because it took EMS too long to arrive. The cop who had to hold him is taking all the blame.

    He said he couldn't breath when they were trying to put him in the police car. Floyd said "put me on the ground" because Floyd knew the process, they hold you until EMS arrives, then these guys who eat their drugs just voluntarily go to the hospital to get their stomach pumped, as opposed to jail.

    This former cop on Timcast last night talked all about how guys will feign having a medical condition, or just straight up tell the cops they took too many drugs and need EMS. He is a pretty good guy, not great on the war on drugs issue, but not the worst either. Tim Pool was trying to persuade him on the war on drugs issue several times.

    They start by discussing the fact that the patrol car was searched by the defense team 8 months later, and they found a half chewed speedball that tested positive for Floyd's DNA.



    In hindsight, yes, he should have taken his knee off after he stopped struggling in this situation.. but in other situations, guys will try and fight if you let up. Guys will wake up and start fighting more. Then you have the crowd - which - I believe if the crowd was not harassing and threatening the police (one guy was literally wanted to step in and stop it, another bystander was caught on video trying to hold him back), they likely would have been able to focus more on Floyd and possibly could have taken a different approach.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  33. #29
    One of Tim Pools' theories (just a theory, he isn't sure of it, but it fits the situation) is that yes, in fact Chauvin did recognize Floyd from their employment together and was called on the site, hearing a bunch of noise about some rookie cops struggling with this guy who was fighting, kicking and wrestling them, got to the scene and was like "oh man, it's Floyd.." and this is why they went so light on him. They could have tased him (which could have also caused cardiac arrest), they could have beaten him, but they didn't.. and the witness on use of force testified during cross examination that they had every right to do that, and that holding him down, not tasing or beating him, was actually the most minimal force they could have applied in the situation.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    I got word yesterday that the reason the EMS and fire department took so long to get there (they were called to come on site LOOONG before) was due to some communication issues at the call center or something..

    That is why he died in police hands, because it took EMS too long to arrive. The cop who had to hold him is taking all the blame.
    Sorry, man... The way I see it is that the cops got called because a guy tried to pass off a bogus FRN to get a pack of cigs and they escalated it to the point of choking a guy out in front of a crowd. This is a law enforcement issue - not an issue with any particular cop.

    You can blame the victim for not being subservient enough, you can blame the crowd for getting involved, you can blame miscommunication... But ultimately, the cops turned a weak attempt at petty theft into murder.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

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