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Thread: Agorism vs Anarcho Capitalism for Dummies

  1. #1

    Agorism vs Anarcho Capitalism for Dummies

    Talking about libertarian politics will likely leave many people confused.


    It’s no secret that libertarians have fierce independent streaks, which makes it next to impossible for them to organize in large groups. Large splinter factions abound, all with their own infighting, disagreements, and factionalism.


    Just look at the radical anarchist wing of libertarianism. There’s even schisms among anarchist libertarians with regards to ideology and strategy. This is best exemplified by the agorism vs anarcho capitalism debate in the libertarian movement.


    While both ideologies are anarchist in outlook, they differ substantially in strategy and to a lesser degree in terms of overall market analysis, which will be discussed below.


    What is Agorism


    The theory of agorism was put forward by libertarian philosopher Samuel Edward Konkin III. Konkin was known for his fierce promotion of market anarchism and was part of a new generation of market anarchists who began to challenge the orthodoxies of libertarian thought at the time.


    The libertarians who preceded him were largely inspired by limited government classical liberal figures such as F.A. Hayek and Ludwig von Mises. Konkin, on the other hand, was ready to shake things up.


    His theory of agorism was a novel way of fighting the state. Under agorism, individuals would abandon the pursuit of traditional politics. Instead, they would attempt to build libertarian institutions to serve as alternatives to the current political economy. To resist the state, many agorists would engage in black and grey market activity.


    What set agorism apart from other libertarian sub-sects was its emphasis on proactive work in the market. After all, agorists rejected political participation and put an emphasis on using counter-economics to reduce the state’s influence on society. The agora (the open marketplace) is the ideal that proponents of agorism strive for.


    How Agorism Differed From Rothbardian Anarchism


    At the time of Konkin’s rise to prominence, libertarianism was being led by Mr. Libertarian himself, Murray Rothbard. Rothbard was the pre-imminent voice for the liberty movement, whose works on history and economics made him a renowned thought leader.


    What set Rothbard apart from was his libertarian counterparts was his advocacy for anarcho-capitalism. Rothbard fiercely hated the state and saw it as an entirely illegitimate institution. Even traditionally legitimate functions of government — defense, law enforcement, and the courts — were perceived as illegitimate.


    In the ancap view, the market would provide these services, just like any other activity in everyday life. Agorists were in agreement with this outlook. In fact, their decision to participate in counter-economics is motivated by the agorist hatred of the state.


    In a similar vein, their antipathy towards the state is what makes them view political activity as a waste of time at best. At worst, political work is an activity that legitimizes the state. Konkin called the concept of using political parties and political processes to advance libertarian agenda items as “the patriarchy.”


    This criticism wasn’t solely directed towards Rothbardians. Konkin believed that this was a flaw of limited government libertarians or minarchists (another term he coined). The disciples of Konkin stressed the importance of building the counter-economy of free-market economic institutions and businesses as a pragmatic way to bring change.


    These ventures that exist outside of the state’s umbrella of intervention and coercion are viewed as the principal means of bringing about a free society. The champions of agora regard the counter-economy as a means of peaceful direct action. In essence, agorists would avoid state power, while simultaneously building parallel institutions.


    Konkin’s Strong Defense of the Agora


    The decision to participate in traditional politics is viewed as surrendering to the prevailing statist order. Konkin stressed this point in his debates with Rothbard. Eventually he penned The New Libertarian Manifesto in 1980 to outline his views on agorism.


    In his work, Konkin made the case for workers and free market entrepreneurs to band together and build institutions outside the state’s control. Konkin brought forward a new form of class theory to explain how the state derives its power and how libertarians can properly combat it.


    Konkin’s class theory is derivative of Marxism, although it has various differences. Instead of framing political conflict between the bourgeoisie vs. the proletarians, Konkin saw the conflict between the state and politically connected businesses vs. free individuals and revolutionary businesses.


    The Political Uniqueness of the Agora


    Agorists still believed in private property, but their belief in free-market anarchism gave them a unique perspective on political economy. In contrast to mainstream conservatives and some libertarians, agorists did not categorically praise all business activity.


    They acknowledged that certain individuals and companies would game the state in order to extract benefits from it at productive people’s expense. This is why many pro-agora figures made it a point to promote activities in the counter-economy and only praised entrepreneurship that operated ethically and created value for others.


    Unlike fusionist libertarian factions of the 20th century, which combined forces with traditional conservative figures, Konkin and his disciples saw agorism as an extension of the left-wing tradition. The political philosophy of the agora eschewed many associations with the conservative movement in the United States.


    Ultimately, a stateless society would be achieved through voluntary exchanges in the free market instead of political activity. Konkin was a revolutionary through and through. He saw the fatal flaws of limited government minarchism and proposed a more radical alternative involving people getting involved in black and grey markets.


    How Konkin’s Philosophy Inspired Others


    Many would be led to believe that agorism is an obscure philosophy that only belongs in the dark crevices of the Internet. While it never grew into a mainstream force, the principles of agora have inspired a number of notable individuals during Konkin’s lifetime.The science fiction novelist J. Neil Schulman published Alongside Night in 1979.


    In this novel, Schulman expressed agorist principles and even noted himself that he was inspired by Konkin’s work. Alongside Night remains a fixture in the libertarian science fiction space. To this day, the novel remains popular in liberty circles and is often cited as a source of inspiration for modern liberty figures.


    For example, Silk Road founder Ross Ulbrich credits the work of Konkin and Schulman for his decision to create an online market on the darknet. Agorists works have inspired subsequent generations of anarchists, most notably crypto-anarchists, to work on non-state solutions to fiat money through the adoption of cryptocurrencies.


    After his death in 2004, Konkin became immortalized in libertarian circles. In addition, he has motivated others to join the fight for the agora, which shows that Konkin’s ideas are still highly respected and even being passed onto future generations.

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  3. #2
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    That's a good read. I suggest you do a refresher from page 43 where it talks about using counter economics to supply "unproven medicines" to people who want/need them. That's what are facing right now. "Unproven" medicines for COVID like ivermectin and hydroxycloroquine as well as proven medicines such as monoclonal antibodies are being restricted on purpose by the federal government. It's admirable you want to get rid of the entire system. Nice long term goal. But the beauty of counter-economics is that it's designed to work around the current system rather than requiring the current system to be abolished first. Hence the term counter economics. This reminds me of a conversation I had with a (likely socialist) ministerial student. We were at a roundtable talking about ways to help the black community. At his turn he went on an unhinged rant about needing to "Get the man's boot off our necks" so we could do something about "food deserts." (From my own research the "food desert" claim is bogus fake academia.) I couldn't take it. My response was "If you want to have a store, start a store. Nobody is stopping you." I saw a movie some years ago about Rev. Vernon Johns, the preacher who proceded MLK at the church in Montgomery. One of the activist things Rev. Johns did was to start a farmers market in the church parking lot, much to the chagrin of the deacon board. Counter economics at it's finest.

    So, now you know the problem. Needed (or at least desired) COVID medicine is being stiffled by the feds. Without having to first do a revolution and overturn the entire system, how would you apply counter economics to circumvent the current system and fill and obvious need? I look forward to your answer.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    That's a good read. I suggest you do a refresher from page 43 where it talks about using counter economics to supply "unproven medicines" to people who want/need them. That's what are facing right now. "Unproven" medicines for COVID like ivermectin and hydroxycloroquine as well as proven medicines such as monoclonal antibodies are being restricted on purpose by the federal government. It's admirable you want to get rid of the entire system. Nice long term goal. But the beauty of counter-economics is that it's designed to work around the current system rather than requiring the current system to be abolished first. Hence the term counter economics. This reminds me of a conversation I had with a (likely socialist) ministerial student. We were at a roundtable talking about ways to help the black community. At his turn he went on an unhinged rant about needing to "Get the man's boot off our necks" so we could do something about "food deserts." (From my own research the "food desert" claim is bogus fake academia.) I couldn't take it. My response was "If you want to have a store, start a store. Nobody is stopping you." I saw a movie some years ago about Rev. Vernon Johns, the preacher who proceded MLK at the church in Montgomery. One of the activist things Rev. Johns did was to start a farmers market in the church parking lot, much to the chagrin of the deacon board. Counter economics at it's finest.

    So, now you know the problem. Needed (or at least desired) COVID medicine is being stiffled by the feds. Without having to first do a revolution and overturn the entire system, how would you apply counter economics to circumvent the current system and fill and obvious need? I look forward to your answer.
    I am glad you took the time to read it.

    Refresher not necessary, I refer the read, and portions of it, regularly.

    The nice thing about Agorism, people are free to exercise it in the manner which provides maximum benefit to him/her; it is a guide, not a cemented set of instructions.

    As to this medicine:

    1. Covid has a +99.7% survival rate. Leaving .3%, who are typically aged, preexisting conditions, and are or should be hospitalized in the first place. Opening government clinics around the state(s) for average Joe to walk in, complain of symptoms, and request/demand a drug, makes no sense at all to me, when there are many other remedies available and can be purchased over-the-counter.

    2. I am not a physician. Talking in passing about possible alternatives is one thing, but in my personal experience, all I hear from people is "take Ivermectin! take monoclonal! take hydroxycloroquine!" etc.". They are not physicians, they are not my or your doctor. They have no idea what other medications people may be on, or how medications may interact with each other. It is Mass Hysteria, over something that has a 99.7% survival rate, and in my opinion (I am not a physician) should be left to the natural immune system, or discussed with your own private physician who knows and understands implications combined with other medications you may be on.


    If you want to have a store, start a store.
    Exactly, I agree. I am not suggesting that you implied it, but I am not going to suggest to somebody to "start a store" on the state/fed tax-payer dime.


    One of the activist things Rev. Johns did was to start a farmers market in the church parking lot, much to the chagrin of the deacon board. Counter economics at it's finest.
    My liberty circle did one better: It is called the "Really Really Free-Market Market". Food, flower/vegetable plants, old, new and hand-made goods, brand new items that may have been bought or given as gifts but never used, tools, Trades and Services, etc. Even better than a run-of-the mill farmers/flea market, at the Really Really Free-Market Market, you are free to barter, trade, use frn's, gold, silver, copper or anything else, or give-away-for-free, just so that nothing goes to waste. Counter-economics and its VERY finest.

    As for other ways to circumvent the system, I have provided many examples in various threads that I actually do. But, "you broke the law!", "wait until they find out!", and "the Marxists will never allow that!" are typical responses.
    Last edited by PAF; 09-19-2021 at 08:42 AM.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    I am glad you took the time to read it.

    Refresher not necessary, I refer the read, and portions of it, regularly.

    The nice thing about Agorism, people are free to exercise it in the manner which provides maximum benefit to him/her; it is a guide, not a cemented set of instructions.

    As to this medicine:

    1. Covid has a +99.7% survival rate. Leaving .3%, who are typically aged, preexisting conditions, and are or should be hospitalized in the first place. Opening government clinics around the state(s) for average Joe to walk in, complain of symptoms, and request/demand a drug, makes no sense at all to me, when there are many other remedies available and can be purchased over-the-counter.

    2. I am not a physician. Talking in passing about possible alternatives is one thing, but in my personal experience, all I hear from people is "take Ivermectin! take monoclonal! take hydroxycloroquine!" etc.". They are not physicians, they are not my or your doctor. They have no idea what other medications people may be on, or how medications may interact with each other. It is Mass Hysteria, over something that has a 99.7% survival rate, and in my opinion (I am not a physician) should be left to the natural immune system, or discussed with your own private physician who knows and understands implications combined with other medications you may be on.




    Exactly, I agree. I am not suggesting that you implied it, but I am not going to suggest to somebody to "start a store" on the state/fed tax-payer dime.




    My liberty circle did one better: It is called the "Really Really Free-Market Market". Food, flower/vegetable plants, old, new and hand-made goods, brand new items that may have been bought or given as gifts but never used, tools, Trades and Services, etc. Even better than a run-of-the mill farmers/flea market, at the Really Really Free-Market Market, you are free to barter, trade, use frn's, gold, silver, copper or anything else, or give-away-for-free, just so that nothing goes to waste. Counter-economics and its VERY finest.

    As for other ways to circumvent the system, I have provided many examples in various threads that I actually do. But, "you broke the law!", "wait until they find out!", and "the Marxists will never allow that!" are typical responses.
    Thank you for your response. I'm not a doctor either. (My ex-wife is but so what?) I'm not suggesting people try to play doctor. But if your doctor would like to prescribe you something and can't get it, then what? That's the situation we find ourselves in. For example patients who have been admitted to the hospital and who's doctors are fine with prescribing ivermectin only to have the hospital overrule the doctor. That's happening. And with the monoclonal antibodies everybody agrees they're helpful. But the supply is being artificially throttled. And it's neat that you've promoted all sorts of solutions for all sorts of other problems, but I was specifically asking about this problem. And if the answer is "I just haven't thought this one through yet"...that's still an answer.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    And it's neat that you've promoted all sorts of solutions for all sorts of other problems, but I was specifically asking about this problem. And if the answer is "I just haven't thought this one through yet"...that's still an answer.
    I did think it through, and did provide answers. Here, I'll bold:

    1. Covid has a +99.7% survival rate. Leaving .3%, who are typically aged, preexisting conditions, and are or should be hospitalized in the first place. Opening government clinics around the state(s) for average Joe to walk in, complain of symptoms, and request/demand a drug, makes no sense at all to me, when there are many other remedies available and can be purchased over-the-counter.

    2. I am not a physician. Talking in passing about possible alternatives is one thing, but in my personal experience, all I hear from people is "take Ivermectin! take monoclonal! take hydroxycloroquine!" etc.". They are not physicians, they are not my or your doctor. They have no idea what other medications people may be on, or how medications may interact with each other. It is Mass Hysteria, over something that has a 99.7% survival rate, and in my opinion (I am not a physician) should be left to the natural immune system, or discussed with your own private physician who knows and understands implications combined with other medications you may be on.

    If that doesn't help, and again, I'm not a physician: outside fresh air, sunlight, vitamins if necessary, and rest. And herd immunity, to build a proper immune system. We do not want to raise an immune-deficient generation, which will ensure more problems down the road. You know, common sense things.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    I did think it through, and did provide answers. Here, I'll bold:




    If that doesn't help, and again, I'm not a physician: outside fresh air, sunlight, vitamins if necessary, and rest. And herd immunity, to build a proper immune system. We do not want to raise an immune-deficient generation, which will ensure more problems down the road. You know, common sense things.
    That's nice. But my understanding of counter economics is doing things the government has not given you permission to do. So as good as those things are that you've mentioned, they don't fit into counter economics.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    That's nice. But my understanding of counter economics is doing things the government has not given you permission to do. So as good as those things are that you've mentioned, they don't fit into counter economics.
    Talk to DeSantis, he has the answers that you want, along with government clinics that he is building across the state. “Counter-economics” at its finest.

    /s


    Liberty can’t be taught, it can’t be force; it only comes from and is within.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer



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  11. #9
    They are both ludicrous, damaging and unsustainable trojan horse theories, stolen from better gentile philosophies, repackaged as alternatives, false ones, by two Jews, at least one, Rothbard, a sickening hypocrite. Each would lead to violence, demands for Marxist reactions and an unstable, deleterious marketplace.
    "For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy ... Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed."

  12. #10
    Agorism is a nice idea in theory. Basically try to avoid the problem with creative black market solutions.

    Which is nice, in theory.

    But at the end of the day, the statists are the gatekeepers. They are guarding all the doors, they are holding all the keys...
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!



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