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Thread: Secret Congress

  1. #1

    Secret Congress

    Secret Police, secret courts, why not a secret Congress? It seems that some on the left are floating this idea.

    The rationale goes something like this: “If the impeachment trial vote was secret, could Trump have been convicted”? The implication being that many Republicans would vote to convict if only it could be hidden from voters. George Stephanopoulos mentioned this today.

    If this is a good idea for impeachment votes, why not all votes? Why would the Congress have to go on record for anything? It’s none of your business how they vote!

    In a totalitarian democratic socialist government, shouldn't everything done by government be secret?

    Conversely, nothing done by the peons can be secret. Big Mother must know all.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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  3. #2
    WASHINGTON — Question:
    Could the Senate decide to make the impeachment vote of President Donald Trump secret or anonymous?
    Answer:
    Hypothetically yes. However, a trio of legal experts explain that this is exceedingly unlikely for numerous reasons.
    First of all, current Senate rules dictate that all votes must be cast publicly, which is reiterated in the standing rules for the impeachment trial. The Senate could hypothetically take the extraordinary action of changing these rules to make the vote private if they have enough votes to do so.
    Video at link: https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/v...ment-in-secret
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  4. #3
    Senator Markey:

    If the impeachment vote was a secret vote, Republicans would convict Trump without question. The problem is they're too cowardly to do what they know is right.

    https://www.twitter.com/EdMarkey/sta...61163894382595
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Secret Police, secret courts, why not a secret Congress? It seems that some on the left are floating this idea.

    The rationale goes something like this: “If the impeachment trial vote was secret, could Trump have been convicted”? The implication being that many Republicans would vote to convict if only it could be hidden from voters. George Stephanopoulos mentioned this today.

    If this is a good idea for impeachment votes, why not all votes? Why would the Congress have to go on record for anything? It’s none of your business how they vote!

    In a totalitarian democratic socialist government, shouldn't everything done by government be secret?

    Conversely, nothing done by the peons can be secret. Big Mother must know all.
    I am not for it, however there is likely some truth that some did not vote to convict out of fear of retaliation from the Trump and his supporters. That is not just a fear of lost votes at the ballot box either.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    I am not for it, however there is likely some truth that some did not vote to convict out of fear of retaliation from the Trump and his supporters. That is not just a fear of lost votes at the ballot box either.
    The idea is that they did their jobs because they represent their constituency, people who think the elections weren't fair or honest. There was no basis of reality to impeach. They took a play out of 1984 and literally changed the meaning of his words in order to make the argument he was trying to incite violence or insurrection. They repeated it constantly on the news in order to hypnotize people. This was all staged and there is no reason to impeach someone over made up stories. They said Trump was using the big lie propaganda technique but it was really them doing it.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    The idea is that they did their jobs because they represent their constituency, people who think the elections weren't fair or honest. There was no basis of reality to impeach. They took a play out of 1984 and literally changed the meaning of his words in order to make the argument he was trying to incite violence or insurrection. They repeated it constantly on the news in order to hypnotize people. This was all staged and there is no reason to impeach someone over made up stories. They said Trump was using the big lie propaganda technique but it was really them doing it.
    I wonder if it’s possible to prosecute them for doctoring evidence? You can bet if an ordinary citizen misled Congress, there’d be charges filed.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    The idea is that they did their jobs because they represent their constituency, people who think the elections weren't fair or honest. There was no basis of reality to impeach. They took a play out of 1984 and literally changed the meaning of his words in order to make the argument he was trying to incite violence or insurrection. They repeated it constantly on the news in order to hypnotize people. This was all staged and there is no reason to impeach someone over made up stories. They said Trump was using the big lie propaganda technique but it was really them doing it.
    Funny how they called out Trump for using tactics from their own playbook. Lets be real though, sure they could not impeach him but it was really, "protest peacefully", wink, wink, after he amped them up. This was after his camp and his surrogates were amping people up in the build up. Legally in a court of law there is nothing there but impeachment really is not like a court trial.

    So what I am saying based on that I could see how some would vote to impeach but decided not to out of fear of retaliation and perhaps fear of further protests that could destabilize the country. For the good of the country thinking what would be the point, whether they believed the election was stolen or not.

  9. #8
    Why not? Everything else they do is done in Secret. They plan Coups in Secret. They have Secret Laws you and I are not allowed to know, or break, but are still held accountable, they have Secret Meetings like Bilderberg and Davos Group, they have Secret proceedings. All done in Secret because they know damn good and well they are planning causing harm not only to the American People but the People of the World. They NEED their Shadows because they know they will burn in the Light of Truth.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

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    Our central bank is not privately owned.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    Funny how they called out Trump for using tactics from their own playbook. Lets be real though, sure they could not impeach him but it was really, "protest peacefully", wink, wink, after he amped them up. This was after his camp and his surrogates were amping people up in the build up. Legally in a court of law there is nothing there but impeachment really is not like a court trial.

    So what I am saying based on that I could see how some would vote to impeach but decided not to out of fear of retaliation and perhaps fear of further protests that could destabilize the country. For the good of the country thinking what would be the point, whether they believed the election was stolen or not.
    That's not what it was at all. The left installed bad actors that instigated people. The election was stolen by force by the left and Trump organized an event for people to vocally vent their frustration and to rally support behind politically opposing and protesting the installation of neo-feudalism. The left used financial coercion and psychological tricks and moral blackmail to rig the election.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    That's not what it was at all. The left installed bad actors that instigated people. The election was stolen by force by the left and Trump organized an event for people to vocally vent their frustration and to rally support behind politically opposing and protesting the installation of neo-feudalism.
    1. They have not yet proven it was stolen by force. Some guy on Youtube or some guy that makes pillows that saw a video on Youtube is not evidence the election was stolen. There was voter fraud but whether it was not enough or was actually enough was not proven in a court of law. If the Trump camp had evidence and did not use the process correctly to bring all that evidence to court then that is on them.

    2. Sure, nothing bad ever happens when claiming an election was stolen and then agitating already angry mob of people into a frenzy.

    3. That is a stretch of the truth to say a few bad actors helped instigate that entire very large angry mob. Sure there were allot of peaceful protestors but to say all the non-peaceful ones were those sent by the left is stretching the truth. As if that is all it took when these people were told the election was stolen.

    4. The elites gave the right 4 years to blow of steam by giving them Trump. Either Trump wanted 4 more and that was not part of the plan or they decided now to take on the right (particularly the hard core ones that show up for protests) for whatever reason. You are fooling yourself if you think Trump is not one of them.

    btw - before this I thought nothing was going to happen since I did not expect Trump to amp up the protesters the way he did. Usually a President on his way out lets voter fraud play out in the courts.
    Last edited by kahless; 02-14-2021 at 04:10 PM.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    1. They have not yet proven it was stolen by force. Some guy on Youtube or some guy that makes pillows that saw a video on Youtube is not evidence the election was stolen. There was voter fraud but whether it was not enough or was actually enough was not proven in a court of law. If the Trump camp had evidence and did not use the process correctly to bring all that evidence to court then that is on them.

    2. Sure, nothing bad ever happens when claiming an election was stolen and then agitating already angry mob of people into a frenzy.

    3. That is a stretch of the truth to say a few bad actors helped instigate that entire very large angry mob. Sure there were allot of peaceful protestors but to say all the non-peaceful ones were those sent by the left is stretching the truth. As if that is all it took when these people were told the election was stolen.

    4. The elites gave the right 4 years to blow of steam by giving them Trump. Either Trump wanted 4 more and that was not part of the plan or they decided now to take on the right (particularly the hard core ones that show up for protests) for whatever reason. You are fooling yourself if you think Trump is not one of them.

    btw - before this I thought nothing was going to happen since I did not expect Trump to amp up the protesters the way he did. Usually a President on his way out lets voter fraud play out in the courts.
    Every person who has accepted the results of this election is complicit. There is plenty of proof of force. They called it the summer of love wink wink.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    Funny how they called out Trump for using tactics from their own playbook. Lets be real though, sure they could not impeach him but it was really, "protest peacefully", wink, wink, after he amped them up. This was after his camp and his surrogates were amping people up in the build up. Legally in a court of law there is nothing there but impeachment really is not like a court trial.

    So what I am saying based on that I could see how some would vote to impeach but decided not to out of fear of retaliation and perhaps fear of further protests that could destabilize the country. For the good of the country thinking what would be the point, whether they believed the election was stolen or not.
    If you really believe what you're saying about the "wink wink" stuff, that Trump was promoting that his supporters be violent, don't you think they should have noticed that and beefed up the lackluster security at the Capitol? Did you think they were going to storm the Capitol before it happened? I didn't.. Was anybody saying that? I was eating popcorn and watching the congressional electoral vote counting and debates.. I had no idea what they went into to recess.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Why not? Everything else they do is done in Secret. They plan Coups in Secret. They have Secret Laws you and I are not allowed to know, or break, but are still held accountable, they have Secret Meetings like Bilderberg and Davos Group, they have Secret proceedings. All done in Secret because they know damn good and well they are planning causing harm not only to the American People but the People of the World. They NEED their Shadows because they know they will burn in the Light of Truth.
    Exactly. Trump impeachment aside, the Congressional leadership already avoids having to openly vote and take responsibility as much as they can. That's one of the reasons for huge omnibus bills. No votes on any individual issues, just a huge crony and lobbyist porkfest that nobody knows what is in it.

    How can we forget when our favorite Congressman tried to force a vote on $2 trillion crony coronavirus grab bag and was attacked by everybody?
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    How can we forget when our favorite Congressman tried to force a vote on $2 trillion crony coronavirus grab bag and was attacked by everybody?
    Everybody including many here, because Bozo in Chief said so



    Since Twitter suspended the Bozo's account the tweet is only available on archive.is

    https://archive.is/Ky6Jn

    RPF'rs should remember that some on this forum were all for this. While the Bozo in Chief did NOTHING about Big Tech Censorship - "Private companies and can do whatever they want"

    Including Treason. So say the current batch of Exceptional Americans

    If Twitter is going to use the national infrastructure then shouldn't they have to follow American ideals?


    "What are Ideals?" - today's "Republican" - and "Democrat"


    Today's America is infested with Liars, Cheats and Thieves who have sold out their birthright for the promise of a bag of coins, or "ideology". Fools and chumps.

    Rand lied about Crimea and Iran
    " US Must Take Strong Action Against Putin's Aggression" -Rand
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    WARNING: mods/admins are editing sigs without notice

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Every person who has accepted the results of this election is complicit. There is plenty of proof of force. They called it the summer of love wink wink.
    Then you can blame Trump and his administration since they could see this coming long before the election and did nothing. Either they were lying and it was propaganda to get us to believe it was coming so they can falsely make the case of voter fraud or they were complicit as part of this show. One big show with a mountain of propaganda promoted on both sides to keep you engaged in it. Meanwhile it is a controlled burn as they move the country slowly to the left like they have for the last 120 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    If you really believe what you're saying about the "wink wink" stuff, that Trump was promoting that his supporters be violent, don't you think they should have noticed that and beefed up the lackluster security at the Capitol? Did you think they were going to storm the Capitol before it happened? I didn't.. Was anybody saying that? I was eating popcorn and watching the congressional electoral vote counting and debates.. I had no idea what they went into to recess.
    I did not think it was going to happen until he decided to make that speech and I tuned in. If they beefed up the police they could not have had the riots they wanted. I think both sides wanted this.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    I wonder if it’s possible to prosecute them for doctoring evidence? You can bet if an ordinary citizen misled Congress, there’d be charges filed.
    Is the GOP thinking of doing so? I hope.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    Then you can blame Trump and his administration since they could see this coming long before the election and did nothing. Either they were lying and it was propaganda to get us to believe it was coming so they can falsely make the case of voter fraud or they were complicit as part of this show. One big show with a mountain of propaganda promoted on both sides to keep you engaged in it. Meanwhile it is a controlled burn as they move the country slowly to the left like they have for the last 120 years.



    I did not think it was going to happen until he decided to make that speech and I tuned in. If they beefed up the police they could not have had the riots they wanted. I think both sides wanted this.
    It's possible Trump has contingency plans if they carried out their color revolution that started when he got elected. The whole country now has something to trauma bond to. That fake capitol event sealed the deal. Trump invoking the insurrection act and bringing up the politicians on sedition charges wouldn't have helped in a simulated color revolution fake news cycle.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    I did not think it was going to happen until he decided to make that speech and I tuned in. If they beefed up the police they could not have had the riots they wanted. I think both sides wanted this.
    What a joke..

    The police lines were being breached about 2/3 of the way into the speech, which was a 45 minute walk away, and people were in the Capitol before the speech ended.. The speech he gave, where he told people to march peacefully and patriotically to the Capitol and make your voice heard, had no impact either way.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    It's possible Trump has contingency plans if they carried out their color revolution that started when he got elected. The whole country now has something to trauma bond to. That fake capitol event sealed the deal. Trump invoking the insurrection act and bringing up the politicians on sedition charges wouldn't have helped in a simulated color revolution fake news cycle.
    You are projecting Trump as the President you wanted him to be not the man he actually was-is.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    What a joke..

    The police lines were being breached about 2/3 of the way into the speech, which was a 45 minute walk away, and people were in the Capitol before the speech ended.. The speech he gave, where he told people to march peacefully and patriotically to the Capitol and make your voice heard, had no impact either way.
    wink, wink, ok, I get it. Sure.

    btw - when they come to take the guns I am sure people are going to march peacefully and patriotically to. Elbow, wink, wink.

  24. #21
    THe GOP senators that voted to impeach should be primaried because they are those who did not do the job of representing constituents .
    Do something Danke

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    ...
    I did not think it was going to happen until he decided to make that speech and I tuned in. If they beefed up the police they could not have had the riots they wanted. I think both sides wanted this.
    I didn’t keep up with the last minute drama before the final Senate vote, but what little I did hear indicated that the Democrats agreed to the vote to get it all over to avoid questions about who was responsible for a lack of Police and security. Sounds like it was going to be blamed directly on the Democrats.

    Anyway, the bigger picture topic is secret votes by Congress. They are floating the idea of completely secret voting. We have secret police (CIA, FBI), secret courts (FISA), and secret detention facilities (GITMO, various foreign subcontractors). Don’t secret Congressional votes naturally follow?
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    You are projecting Trump as the President you wanted him to be not the man he actually was-is.
    Using executive power to stop the coordinated deception and propaganda the left were using to stage a simulated color revolution would have been a failed strategy. Even if he would have gotten the best PR possible and proved it was justifiable any future administration would be able to use executive power to go after their political opponents with impunity. It would have normalized that sort of behavior. The only option to win and not do permanent damage to the country was with speech, that's why in the end they censored him.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    I didn’t keep up with the last minute drama before the final Senate vote, but what little I did hear indicated that the Democrats agreed to the vote to get it all over to avoid questions about who was responsible for a lack of Police and security. Sounds like it was going to be blamed directly on the Democrats.

    Anyway, the bigger picture topic is secret votes by Congress. They are floating the idea of completely secret voting. We have secret police (CIA, FBI), secret courts (FISA), and secret detention facilities (GITMO, various foreign subcontractors). Don’t secret Congressional votes naturally follow?
    I think we already know how they will justify it while the news media pundits will ram it down our throats why it is so necessary. Foreign and domestic threats. Something like blame Iran and China. If you are against that then you are for keeping us less safe which will be said repeatedly enough times that within months people will just accept it. The other side will be domestic terrorism, as if there is some gorillion hard core Trump supporters, White Supremacists and KKK members ready to rise up.

    That's okay, I am sure Hollywood will give us endless hours of law enforcement dramas telling us how hard they have it and why this is all so necessary.

    It is getting all so tiresome. One can only hope that after everything people are more wise to it but peoples memories are very short. The level of conditioning from all forms of media are just too great.



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  29. #25
    Yeah I'm sure if this trial was held in secret and nobody was allowed to see it Trump could have definitely been convicted.
    "Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."

    Calvin Coolidge

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    wink, wink, ok, I get it. Sure.

    btw - when they come to take the guns I am sure people are going to march peacefully and patriotically to. Elbow, wink, wink.
    Now you've gotta be just trolling. You said that you didn't think it would happen, until you tuned into his speech.. Except the people who breached the Capitol were not at the speech. So you are full of fake news $#@!.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Now you've gotta be just trolling. You said that you didn't think it would happen, until you tuned into his speech.. Except the people who breached the Capitol were not at the speech. So you are full of fake news $#@!.
    Oh come on, everyone knew he was making the speech and they could hear it on their phones. There was a long build up to this. You are like a total Trump surrogate here and now you say I am the one that is trolling and full of fake news $#@!. LOL.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    Oh come on, everyone knew he was making the speech and they could hear it on their phones. There was a long build up to this. You are like a total Trump surrogate here and now you say I am the one that is trolling and full of fake news $#@!. LOL.
    Come on, man? Are you some sort of controlled opposition biden bro now?

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    Oh come on, everyone knew he was making the speech and they could hear it on their phones. There was a long build up to this. You are like a total Trump surrogate here and now you say I am the one that is trolling and full of fake news $#@!. LOL.
    I saw a lot of videos, and I didn't see anybody watching Trump's speach on their phones... you gotta be freaking kidding me.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    1. They have not yet proven it was stolen by force. Some guy on Youtube or some guy that makes pillows that saw a video on Youtube is not evidence the election was stolen. There was voter fraud but whether it was not enough or was actually enough was not proven in a court of law. If the Trump camp had evidence and did not use the process correctly to bring all that evidence to court then that is on them.
    Many people believed that there was election changing fraud well before Mark Lindell or any YouTube video. The mail-in vote scheme was bad enough, with people insisting against any protest that there is no conceivable way that a mail-in ballot can be abused. The "4:00 a.m. ballot dumps" only compounded the issue by turning the previous suspicion of fraud into perceived confirmation of fraud. Most of the evidence that people cite is circumstantial (which doesn't necessarily discount it), but it all seems to point toward the possibility of fraud due to anomalous data, etc. Unfortunately, "proof" of the alleged fraud is an impossible burden for tens of millions of aggrieved voters without a bona fide audit which they will never get.

    Even the appearance of impropriety within an election should be avoided, and none of the actions taken could be construed to allay voters' suspicion that there was fraud, especially with the subsequent and heavy-handed censorship. January 6th was a predictable consequence of tens of millions of people concluding that our elections are now completely fraudulent. Ron Paul would call that "blowback."

    2. Sure, nothing bad ever happens when claiming an election was stolen and then agitating already angry mob of people into a frenzy.
    Many if not most people believed there was fraud independently of Trump's accusation. Should they not talk about it? Should they not "peacefully protest" in a manner that they were trained to accept in 2020?

    3. That is a stretch of the truth to say a few bad actors helped instigate that entire very large angry mob. Sure there were allot of peaceful protestors but to say all the non-peaceful ones were those sent by the left is stretching the truth. As if that is all it took when these people were told the election was stolen.
    I agree with this in part. I believe that Congress may have helped steer the protestors inside the capitol by intentionally folding so that they could execute a feigned retreat strategy, with the counterpunch being media and legal retribution. However, I think people are too hasty to assume that the entire thing was a false flag considering that Trump urged his base to go to D.C. on the 6th. If it was nothing but "Antifa" agitators, perhaps we should hire them to get things done.

    4. The elites gave the right 4 years to blow of steam by giving them Trump. Either Trump wanted 4 more and that was not part of the plan or they decided now to take on the right (particularly the hard core ones that show up for protests) for whatever reason. You are fooling yourself if you think Trump is not one of them.
    If Trump is controlled opposition then they were doing a poor job. Rather than allowing the right to blow off steam, they are now more enraged than ever before. If Trump was part of the plan, why would it be so far of a stretch that he wasn't part of the plan and that there was election fraud in order to get the plan back on track?

    btw - before this I thought nothing was going to happen since I did not expect Trump to amp up the protesters the way he did. Usually a President on his way out lets voter fraud play out in the courts.
    I would trust a bum living beneath a bridge before I'd trust any court. It's not normal for an accusation of fraud at this level. The last contested election was Bush/Gore, and that was only over a single state. I don't know that there is a "usually" here.
    Last edited by Philhelm; 02-15-2021 at 03:46 PM.
    "I shall bring justice to Westeros. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that."
    -Stannis Baratheon

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