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Thread: [Split] COVID, Vaccines and Lockdowns

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    If those 2 pages in that document are your "evidence" then you have no evidence. The pages you referenced had zero relevance to the question.

    The facts of the situation, give no credibility at all to your claim. Funding was distributed relatively equally across states per capita, regardless of lockdown. North Dakota had zero lockdowns, and they got some of the highest per capita funding.

    https://www.pgpf.org/understanding-t...state-by-state
    All of the funding included there is funding that was provided by bills passed by Congress.

    None of that was for the purpose of implementing lockdowns. I am not aware of Congress passing a bill federally to support state level lockdowns. That lockdown plan came straight from the executive branch.

    However, that is another good point to mention. While this stimulus funding wasn't contingent on states cooperating with the "The US Government COVID-19 Response Plan," which the Trump administration spearheaded without needing any new laws or funding passed by Congress, it still enabled the lockdowns for the states that had them. Again, as I pointed out earlier, they never would have been able to impose those lockdowns, at least not for the duration they did and to the degree they did, without the federal government providing that safety net. And Trump championed and spearheaded that, above and beyond the executive branch actions he had already taken.

    The fact remains that if North Dakota had opted to impose lockdowns on their state, they would have been eligible for federal assistance, provided directly from the executive branch (detailed in the link I just gave), in covering the cost of that. This is beyond the level of federal COVID relief spending that they got without doing that.
    Last edited by Invisible Man; 02-10-2021 at 02:38 PM.



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by BSWPaulsen View Post
    There was no Trump lockdown. If there was a Trump lockdown, then it would have blanketed the entire country.
    Except that there was a Trump lockdown, and it did not blanket the entire country.

    Again, consider the analogy of the federal prohibition of marijuana.

    The existence of some states and localities that don't enforce marijuana prohibition doesn't mean that the feds are free from blame in the ones that do, because it is a cooperative effort involving both the feds and those state and local governments.

    In fact, I would posit that in almost every instance of gross violations of the 10th Amendment, the way the federal government pulls it off is because they use other tools to entice and manipulate state action besides something as stark as a mandate.

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    Except that there was a Trump lockdown and it did not blanket the entire country.
    If it did not blanket the country, then it was not a Trump lockdown. All Trump lockdowns would blanket the entire country.

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by BSWPaulsen View Post
    If it did not blanket the country, then it was not a Trump lockdown. All Trump lockdowns would blanket the entire country.

    You are wrong and no amount of your intellectually deficient analogies can change the above logic.
    That's a convenient way of getting out of it. Sure, by the way you define it, then by definition there was no Trump lockdown. I'm willing to grant that.

    But by other more reasonable definitions that take into account how cooperative efforts between federal and state governments actually work all the time, there was.



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    That's a convenient way of getting out of it. Sure, by the way you define it, then by definition there was no Trump lockdown. I'm willing to grant that.
    I am glad that basic logic has served its purpose.

    But by other more reasonable definitions that take into account how cooperative efforts between federal and state governments actually work all the time, there was.
    Your definition of reasonable should be launched into the sun.

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    All of the funding included there is funding that was provided by bills passed by Congress.
    What other funding was there? Need source.

    provided directly from the executive branch (detailed in the link I just gave)
    Where in the link that you gave? It's certainly not in the 2 pages you referenced earlier!

    If you're unable to provide a source for this claim, I'll have to assume its a conspiracy theory. Is there a leftist QAnon?
    Last edited by TheTexan; 02-10-2021 at 02:58 PM.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    What other funding was there? Need source.
    Already provided.

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    Already provided.
    Where in the link that you gave? It's certainly not in the 2 pages you referenced earlier!

    If you're unable to provide a source for this claim, I'll have to assume its a conspiracy theory. Is there a leftist QAnon?
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!

  11. #69
    "Since some states still haven't opted into the Obamacare Medicaid expansion, by definition there is no Obamacare Medicaid expansion."

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Where in the link that you gave? It's certainly not in the 2 pages you referenced earlier!
    On one of those two pages, it says:
    Support SLTT authorities in implementation of social distancing mitigation measures (e.g., school dismissals, workplace measures and closures, bans on public gatherings, closures of public spaces)
    What do you think "support" means? Just offer moral support?

    To see that federal funding is included, see, among other places, page 5, which says:
    States will request federal assistance when requirements exceed state , local, tribal, and territorial (SLTT) capabilities to respond to COVID - 19. This may include requests for assistance of HHS through the HHS Region based on the scope of assistance available through an emergency supplemental appropriation and may include additional assistance under the Stafford Act.
    The reason I chose the pages I mentioned earlier was because those pages specifically include lockdown measures executed at the state and local levels as part of this plan, which the Trump admin came up with, as the "federal" response to COVID-19. State and federal actions are not as neatly separated as you and other Trump apologists want to pretend they are.
    Last edited by Invisible Man; 02-10-2021 at 04:02 PM.

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    On one of those two pages, it says:


    What do you think "support" means? Just offer moral support?

    To see that federal funding is included, see, among other places, page 5, which says:


    The reason I chose the pages I mentioned earlier was because those pages specifically include lockdown measures executed at the state and local levels as part of this plan, which the Trump admin came up with, as the "federal" response to COVID-19. State and federal actions are not as neatly separated as you and other Trump apologists want to pretend they are.
    So, in other words, the funding was authorized by Congress.

    And still none of this has any relevance to your claim that funding was predicated on lockdown.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!

  14. #72
    Hey, Covid lockdown talking peeps. How about a thread of it's own? I believe this thread is about the impeachment.



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    So, in other words, the funding was authorized by Congress.
    In the sense that it was executive branch allocation of funding that they had previously gotten for more generic purposes from Congress, yes. But Congress did not authorize this specific use of the funding to support state lockdowns.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    And still none of this has any relevance to your claim that funding was predicated on lockdown.
    Lockdowns is another word for "social distancing mitigation measures(e.g., school dismissals, workplace measures and closures, bans on public gatherings, closures of public spaces)."

    So it is directly relevant to, and explicitly supportive of my claim.

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    In the sense that it was executive branch allocation of funding that they had previously gotten for more generic purposes from Congress, yes. But Congress did not authorize this specific use of the funding to support state lockdowns.



    Lockdowns is another word for "social distancing mitigation measures(e.g., school dismissals, workplace measures and closures, bans on public gatherings, closures of public spaces)."

    So it is directly relevant to, and explicitly supportive of my claim.
    aherm...

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Hey, Covid lockdown talking peeps. How about a thread of it's own? I believe this thread is about the impeachment.

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    ...
    She can compare and contrast her record on COVID with that of (former) media darling Andrew Cuomo. She didn't mandate masks, she didn't mandate businesses shut down, she didn't mandate nursing homes take COVID positive patients, she didn't mandate her health officials cook the numbers. And the results speak for themselves.
    ...
    I was told that Trump shut down everything, and Governors had no say in the matter...

    And yes, Noem has proven herself in action, not just a bunch of hollow rhetoric.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    I was told that Trump shut down everything, and Governors had no say in the matter...
    I don't know who told you that. Trump certainly tweeted against Georgia supposedly opening "too early." That in itself shows the governors had a say. Trump certainly gave a bully pulpit to Dr. Fauci by having Fauci on the presidential COVID task force and never replacing him with someone competent. And after Bob Woodward's leak about Trump privately telling him "I knew this was bad in January...but I didn't want people to panic", I have no idea why anybody is still trying to defend Trump's COVID record. It's time to move on.

    And yes, Noem has proven herself in action, not just a bunch of hollow rhetoric.
    I agree.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    I don't know who told you that. ...
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post7022102
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    So do you absolve Dr. Fauci for his role in promoting the lockdowns?

    Edit: And clicking on your link I do not see where anyone said that the governors had no role in the lockdowns.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 02-28-2021 at 01:01 PM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    I don't know who told you that. Trump certainly tweeted against Georgia supposedly opening "too early." That in itself shows the governors had a say. Trump certainly gave a bully pulpit to Dr. Fauci by having Fauci on the presidential COVID task force and never replacing him with someone competent. And after Bob Woodward's leak about Trump privately telling him "I knew this was bad in January...but I didn't want people to panic", I have no idea why anybody is still trying to defend Trump's COVID record. It's time to move on.



    I agree.
    Dont know ? LOL , Invisible Man tells everyone that .
    Do something Danke

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    Dont know ? LOL , Invisible Man tells everyone that .
    I haven't seen a post where he @Invisible Man said that governors have no role in the matter.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    I haven't seen a post where he @Invisible Man said that governors have no role in the matter.
    Actually he has been consistent saying it is all from Trump . personally I could care less what a Pres or anyone in DC has to say about business in my state . I expect business to be open unless the business owner chooses not .
    Do something Danke

  26. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    Actually he has been consistent saying it is all from Trump . personally I could care less what a Pres or anyone in DC has to say about business in my state . I expect business to be open unless the business owner chooses not .
    No, jmdrake is correct. I have consistently said that blame belongs to both Trump and the governors who followed his plan. And I'm sure you know that.

    But the Trumpers seem to want to let Trump himself off the hook. And I refuse to sit back and let them rewrite history that way.

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    No, jmdrake is correct. I have consistently said that blame belongs to both Trump and the governors who followed his plan. And I'm sure you know that.

    But the Trumpers seem to want to let Trump himself off the hook. And I refuse to sit back and let them rewrite history that way.
    All the governors would be my primary concern . They are are still in power , Trump isnt and isnt going to be . Then there is the added bonus that the Governors were actually screwing over their own people and own states. I will never give them a pass .
    Do something Danke

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    All the governors would be my primary concern . They are are still in power , Trump isnt and isnt going to be . Then there is the added bonus that the Governors were actually screwing over their own people and own states. I will never give them a pass .
    Why pretend it's an either or? As for Trump "isn't going to be" he might plan to run in 2024. Regardless, my point is now proven.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    So do you absolve Dr. Fauci for his role in promoting the lockdowns?

    Edit: And clicking on your link I do not see where anyone said that the governors had no role in the lockdowns.
    Hyperbole and sarcasm. Many people use it.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  30. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    All the governors would be my primary concern . They are are still in power , Trump isnt and isnt going to be . Then there is the added bonus that the Governors were actually screwing over their own people and own states. I will never give them a pass .
    I agree. Now that we've gotten rid of the lockdowner at the top of the totem pole, let's turn our attention to the culprits who are still around at the next level down from him. Being a lockdowner should be an insurmountable political liability.

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