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Thread: 25% of Americans say it's time to split up

  1. #61
    Book (PDF): Common Sense: The Case for an Independent Texas

    Audio (MP3): The Bob Murphy Show Ep. 225 - Buck Johnson Interviews Bob Murphy on the Case for an Independent Texas

    The Case for an Independent Texas with Bob Murphy
    My guest this week is an economist, a professor, an author, a Mises Institute Senior Fellow and a podcast host. He is Robert Murphy and he's here to discuss his new short-form book, "Common Sense: The Case for an Independent Texas". Bob and I go through several common issues of pushback when it comes to the State of Texas becoming an independent nation. We talk: social security, military, money and other logistical issues that you will find interesting. Bob and I both agree that secession is imminent and that a peaceful transmission is the preferable way. To find this new book and all of Bob's work, go here: https://consultingbyrpm.com
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHx3mhymyn8



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  3. #62
    https://twitter.com/RepThomasMassie/...25156473131010


    Is Kentucky Republican Thomas Massie Making a Case for Secession?
    https://www.newsweek.com/kentucky-re...ession-1660399
    Aila Slisco (17 December 2021)

    Representative Thomas Massie (R-Ky.) took to Twitter to ponder the issue of secession on Thursday while recent polls indicate growing support for the U.S. breaking up along ideological lines.

    A pair of polls released over the summer suggested that a majority of Republicans supported states seceding from the U.S. for political reasons. Massie broached the topic in a tweet using the Civil War example of West Virginia joining the Union by breaking away from Confederate Virginia. The Kentucky Republican recalled that one of his Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) classmates had been unaware that West Virginia was a state.

    "Has secession ever succeeded?" asked Massie. "One of my freshmen classmates at MIT (from Bronx Science, NYC) didn't know West Virginia was a state - he thought it was just a region of Virginia. Most people know it's a state, but few know it seceded from VA. It's a story that's not often told."


    It is unclear why Massie used the example of West Virginia, his birth state, to illustrate the issue of secession. Two other states were formed by breaking away from other states in a similar manner but under different circumstances. Massie's home state of Kentucky was also part of Virginia before becoming a state in 1792, while Maine formed following separation from Massachusetts in 1820.

    However, secession more commonly refers to states breaking away from the U.S. as a whole rather than separating from other states, a process sometimes referred to as partitioning. The only historical example of secession from the U.S. was ultimately a failure, given that the 11 states that broke away to form the Confederacy were decisively defeated by the Union at the conclusion of the Civil War in 1865.

    No other states have successfully broken away from the federal government, although Texas broke away from Mexico in 1836 as the Republic of Texas before being admitted as a U.S. state in 1845.

    Many failed proposals for states or cities to secede from the U.S. or to partition existing states have been put forward over the years. Polling indicates that the proposals [& see THIS POST - OB] have become increasingly popular as U.S. politics have become more polarized.

    A recent poll [& see THIS THREAD - OB] from the University of Virginia's Center for Politics, based on responses from July and August, indicated that 52 percent of those who voted for former President Donald Trump in 2020 would support "red states seceding from the union to form their own separate country," while 41 percent of those who voted for President Joe Biden said that blue states should break away to form a different country.

    A June poll from YouGov and Bright Line Watch indicated that support for secession among Southern Republicans became particularly enthusiastic after Trump left office, moving from 50 percent who supported a new Southern breakaway country in January to 66 percent who supported the quasi-Confederacy in June.

  4. #63
    Andrew Torba of Gab is really pushing for Christians and other liberty types to build a full on parallel society.
    If we can't officially secede, then we need to pursue this where we segregate.

    I mean, segregation is en vogue again right? I see the BLMers and Wokers advocating for it all of the time now.
    Welcome to the R3VOLUTION!

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Okie RP fan View Post
    Andrew Torba of Gab is really pushing for Christians and other liberty types to build a full on parallel society.
    If we can't officially secede, then we need to pursue this where we segregate.

    I mean, segregation is en vogue again right? I see the BLMers and Wokers advocating for it all of the time now.
    Segregation is wholly inadequate. If we're still in Uncle Sugar's territory, we're still subject to his dictates and "justice".

    Secession is literally the only solution to this situation. Otherwise, we're on a fast boat to China... literally.



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  7. #65
    Imagine another American Civil War, but this time in every state
    https://www.npr.org/2022/01/11/10710...in-every-state
    Ron Elving (11 January 2022)

    Not long ago, the idea of another American Civil War seemed outlandish.

    These days, the notion has not only gone mainstream, it seems to suddenly be everywhere.

    Business Insider published a poll in October 2020 saying a majority of Americans believed the U.S. was already in the midst of a "cold" civil war. Then last fall, the University of Virginia Center for Politics released a poll finding that a majority of people who had voted to reelect former President Donald Trump in 2020 now wanted their state tosecede from the Union.

    The UVA data also showed a stunning 41% of those who voted for Joe Biden in 2020 also said it might now be "time to split the country."

    Researchers have found such downbeat assessments of America's democracy are especially salient among the young. Last month, the Institute of Politics at Harvard's Kennedy School published a poll that found half of voting age Americans under 30 thought our democracy was "in trouble" or "failing." A third also said they expected there to be "a civil war" within their lifetimes. And a quarter thought at least one state would secede.

    The more one hears this particular drumbeat, the louder it becomes.

    Late last year, the University of Maryland and The Washington Post produced a poll saying that one-third of Americans thought violence against the government was "sometimes justified" — a belief they found even more widely held among Republicans and independents. According to the Post, just about 1 American in 10 held that view in the 1990s.

    Do the respondents in all these polls fully realize what these terms mean or their answers imply? Possibly not. Talk is often cheap, and pollsters can ask a lot of provocative questions in pursuit of something noteworthy — or buzzworthy.

    What do people even mean by "civil war"? Let us assume it would not be a return to the 1860s, when 11 Southern states left the Union and fought a four-year war to assert their right to do so and preserve the practice of slavery, which had about 4 million African Americans in bondage at the time.

    The American Civil War cost the lives of at least 600,000 Americans and contributed to the deaths of many thousands more. It devastated the South economically and left most of those in the region who had been emancipated to lives of peonage and penury.

    Moreover, it did little to settle the constitutional issue of "states' rights," a problematic point in our national conversation ever since. Salient in the struggles for civil rights and voting rights, it remains so in the squabbles over the mask and vaccine mandates of today.

    States' rights, still with us

    The rights of states to go their own way on fundamental issues are also still front and center in the Supreme Court, where abortion rights pose an immediate example. Texas and other states want to make the procedure all but unavailable, while much of the nation prefers the access granted nationwide by the court's Roe v. Wade decision in 1973.

    "We already are seeing 'border war' with individual states passing major legislation that differs considerably from that in other places," says Darrell West, director of governance studies at the Brookings Institution, and William Gale, a Brookings senior fellow in economic studies, who have written a pair of articles on the fraying of the American social and political fabric.

    They note that conflicts between entire states are not the only way civil war may emerge in our time, or even the most likely. When and if the issue turns to violent confrontations between local citizens and federal officers, or between contentious groups of citizens, the clash might well take place far closer to home. As West and Gale write:

    Today's toxic atmosphere makes it difficult to negotiate on important issues, which makes people angry with the federal government and has helped create a winner-take-all approach to politics. When the stakes are so high, people are willing to consider extraordinary means to achieve their objectives.

    And what do these careful scholars mean by "extraordinary means"?

    "America has an extraordinary number of guns and private militias," they write. How many? They cite the National Shooting Sports Foundation's estimate of 434 million firearms in civilian possession in the U.S. right now. That would be 1.3 guns per person.

    "Semi-automatic weapons comprise around 19.8 million in total," they add ominously, "making for a highly armed population with potentially dangerous capabilities."

    The New York Times recently reviewed How Civil Wars Start by political scientist Barbara F. Walter of the University of California at San Diego. In an interview with NPR member station KPBS in San Diego a year ago, Walter said the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol was surprising but should not have been because we had been watching "American democracy decline since 2016."

    A scholar of international law, Walter adds: "The U.S. used to be considered a full democracy like Norway, Switzerland or Iceland," she said, "and it's now considered a partial democracy like Ecuador, Somalia or Haiti."

    Drawing different lines today

    The geographical divides in our time are different from those of the 1860s. We can still trace the original Mason-Dixon line that separated the regions of "free soil" from "slave states," and there are real differences on either side of that ancient demarcation even today.

    But the most meaningful geographic separation in our society is no longer as tidy as North and South, or East and West. It is the familiar divide between urban and rural, or to update that a bit: metro versus non-metro.

    Thus a "blue state" such as Maine has populous coastal counties that voted for Biden and sparsely populated interior counties that went heavily for Trump, enough to tip the majority to him in one of the state's two congressional districts. Conversely, in ruby red state Nebraska, one congressional district anchored in the city of Omaha went for Biden.

    This dynamic also shows up in the biggest population states, the top prizes in the Electoral College. In California, where the coastal cities are famously liberal, the Central Valley counties are still far more conservative.

    And in Texas, Biden carried the six largest metros in 2020, due largely to their growing numbers of people of color. But most of the state's 254 counties are outside these metros; in rural Texas, the Republican vote share is still the lion's share.

    That may change over time, but for now we're less a nation divided into 50 states than we are two nations that are both present in each of those states. Each is dominant in its own space and certain that it is the real America.

    You can measure some of this geographic/demographic division in the 2020 election results. Trump won in 2,588 counties covering most of the national landscape, as Republican candidates usually do. (This is why we are accustomed to Election Night maps that are strikingly red even as the popular vote is close or leans Democratic.)

    Biden, in stark contrast, carried only 551 counties, less than a quarter as many as Trump. But the counties Biden carried had a total population of nearly 198 million, while Trump's altogether had just 130.3 million. That is a difference of nearly 68 million people. Put another way, Biden won the counties that are home to 60% of the total U.S. population.

    It is hard to believe when staring at a map on which Biden's counties are scattered blue dots on a sea of red. But those blue dots are where most of the country lives. When you look at the top ten states by metro percentage of total state population, Biden won all ten.

    Trump did win a few inner-core urban counties here and there, with a combined population of 4.7 million. Biden won the rest of that category with a combined population of 97 million. That is a ratio of 20 to 1.

    Moreover, the Biden counties are where most of the population growth is happening. Less than a fifth of the counties account for 77% of the Latino or Hispanic community and 86% of Asian American community nationwide.

    Is civil war a self-fulfilling anxiety?

    The forces of disunity are disquieting, to say the least. But must it all come to blows? Can we still center ourselves and pull back from whatever brink we are approaching?

    Irish Times writer Fintan O'Toole offered a cautionary message just before Christmas in The Atlantic, recounting some of his horrific memories from "the troubles" in his homeland in the late 1900s. Even then, he says, with all the provocation on both sides, "it never got to a full-blown civil war."

    It doesn't do to behave as if our divisions must compel us to bloodshed, he adds, because dwelling on such thoughts and making such predictions may bring that prospect closer to reality, even if intended to do the opposite.

    That makes sense, especially if you believe that too much thinking about the unthinkable can become acceptance of the unacceptable.

    And however you personally regard the meaning of what happened on Jan. 6, 2021, we know now that nothing in American politics is unthinkable.

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    "We already are seeing 'border war' with individual states passing major legislation that differs considerably from that in other places," says Darrell West, director of governance studies at the Brookings Institution, and William Gale, a Brookings senior fellow in economic studies, who have written a pair of articles on the fraying of the American social and political fabric.

    They note that conflicts between entire states are not the only way civil war may emerge in our time, or even the most likely. When and if the issue turns to violent confrontations between local citizens and federal officers, or between contentious groups of citizens, the clash might well take place far closer to home. As West and Gale write:

    Today's toxic atmosphere makes it difficult to negotiate on important issues, which makes people angry with the federal government and has helped create a winner-take-all approach to politics. When the stakes are so high, people are willing to consider extraordinary means to achieve their objectives.
    Of course.

    This is the reductio ad absurdum of continent-spanning mass "democracy" on a scale of a third of a billion people.

    How else could it be? What else was to be expected?
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 01-16-2022 at 10:22 AM.

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    The New York Times recently reviewed How Civil Wars Start by political scientist Barbara F. Walter of the University of California at San Diego. In an interview with NPR member station KPBS in San Diego a year ago, Walter said the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol was surprising but should not have been because we had been watching "American democracy decline since 2016."

    A scholar of international law, Walter adds: "The U.S. used to be considered a full democracy like Norway, Switzerland or Iceland," she said, "and it's now considered a partial democracy like Ecuador, Somalia or Haiti."
    "Democracy" as "considered" by whom?

    "Democracy" as defined by whom?

    "Democracy" by what standard?

    This one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    "It's only democracy when my side is succeeding."


  10. #68
    "Semi-automatic weapons comprise around 19.8 million in total," they add ominously, "making for a highly armed population with potentially dangerous capabilities."
    Tell me you know nothing about guns without saying that you know nothing about guns.

    The New York Times recently reviewed How Civil Wars Start by political scientist Barbara F. Walter of the University of California at San Diego. In an interview with NPR member station KPBS in San Diego a year ago, Walter said the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol was surprising but should not have been because we had been watching "American democracy decline since 2016."

    A scholar of international law, Walter adds: "The U.S. used to be considered a full democracy like Norway, Switzerland or Iceland," she said, "and it's now considered a partial democracy like Ecuador, Somalia or Haiti."
    In addition to the paragraph preceding regarding guns, I'd like to congratulate the author on compiling the 3 least coherent paragraphs I've ever read in an article.

    Irish Times writer Fintan O'Toole offered a cautionary message just before Christmas in The Atlantic, recounting some of his horrific memories from "the troubles" in his homeland in the late 1900s. Even then, he says, with all the provocation on both sides, "it never got to a full-blown civil war."
    I'm not familiar with Fintan O'Toole, but the Irish did in fact fight a civil war in the 1920's. Also I'd like suggest to Mr. O'Toole that "the Troubles" are often exactly what civil wars actually look like in most cases. That the fighting wasn't more widespread than it was is more due to the fact that the area of conflict was largely contained in Ulster, rather than the whole of the island. In my opinion, and I remember saying this to friends at the time, the biggest reason that the Troubles petered out was because of September 11th. Funding from the US dried up, on both sides of the conflict; and the will to fight a guerrilla war largely evaporated. There have been minor outbreaks from time to time since, but nothing like the '90's. I spent a semester in Ireland in '96 - our flight landed the same day as the Canary Wharf bombing in London.

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    "Democracy" as "considered" by whom?

    "Democracy" as defined by whom?

    "Democracy" by what standard?
    A scholar of international law, Walter adds: "The U.S. used to be considered a full democracy like Norway, Switzerland or Iceland," she said, "and it's now considered a partial democracy like Ecuador, Somalia or Haiti."
    Bemoaning that which they themselves created.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov

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