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Thread: 25% of Americans say it's time to split up

  1. #61
    Book (PDF): Common Sense: The Case for an Independent Texas

    Audio (MP3): The Bob Murphy Show Ep. 225 - Buck Johnson Interviews Bob Murphy on the Case for an Independent Texas

    The Case for an Independent Texas with Bob Murphy
    My guest this week is an economist, a professor, an author, a Mises Institute Senior Fellow and a podcast host. He is Robert Murphy and he's here to discuss his new short-form book, "Common Sense: The Case for an Independent Texas". Bob and I go through several common issues of pushback when it comes to the State of Texas becoming an independent nation. We talk: social security, military, money and other logistical issues that you will find interesting. Bob and I both agree that secession is imminent and that a peaceful transmission is the preferable way. To find this new book and all of Bob's work, go here: https://consultingbyrpm.com
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHx3mhymyn8



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  3. #62
    https://twitter.com/RepThomasMassie/...25156473131010


    Is Kentucky Republican Thomas Massie Making a Case for Secession?
    https://www.newsweek.com/kentucky-re...ession-1660399
    Aila Slisco (17 December 2021)

    Representative Thomas Massie (R-Ky.) took to Twitter to ponder the issue of secession on Thursday while recent polls indicate growing support for the U.S. breaking up along ideological lines.

    A pair of polls released over the summer suggested that a majority of Republicans supported states seceding from the U.S. for political reasons. Massie broached the topic in a tweet using the Civil War example of West Virginia joining the Union by breaking away from Confederate Virginia. The Kentucky Republican recalled that one of his Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) classmates had been unaware that West Virginia was a state.

    "Has secession ever succeeded?" asked Massie. "One of my freshmen classmates at MIT (from Bronx Science, NYC) didn't know West Virginia was a state - he thought it was just a region of Virginia. Most people know it's a state, but few know it seceded from VA. It's a story that's not often told."


    It is unclear why Massie used the example of West Virginia, his birth state, to illustrate the issue of secession. Two other states were formed by breaking away from other states in a similar manner but under different circumstances. Massie's home state of Kentucky was also part of Virginia before becoming a state in 1792, while Maine formed following separation from Massachusetts in 1820.

    However, secession more commonly refers to states breaking away from the U.S. as a whole rather than separating from other states, a process sometimes referred to as partitioning. The only historical example of secession from the U.S. was ultimately a failure, given that the 11 states that broke away to form the Confederacy were decisively defeated by the Union at the conclusion of the Civil War in 1865.

    No other states have successfully broken away from the federal government, although Texas broke away from Mexico in 1836 as the Republic of Texas before being admitted as a U.S. state in 1845.

    Many failed proposals for states or cities to secede from the U.S. or to partition existing states have been put forward over the years. Polling indicates that the proposals [& see THIS POST - OB] have become increasingly popular as U.S. politics have become more polarized.

    A recent poll [& see THIS THREAD - OB] from the University of Virginia's Center for Politics, based on responses from July and August, indicated that 52 percent of those who voted for former President Donald Trump in 2020 would support "red states seceding from the union to form their own separate country," while 41 percent of those who voted for President Joe Biden said that blue states should break away to form a different country.

    A June poll from YouGov and Bright Line Watch indicated that support for secession among Southern Republicans became particularly enthusiastic after Trump left office, moving from 50 percent who supported a new Southern breakaway country in January to 66 percent who supported the quasi-Confederacy in June.

  4. #63
    Andrew Torba of Gab is really pushing for Christians and other liberty types to build a full on parallel society.
    If we can't officially secede, then we need to pursue this where we segregate.

    I mean, segregation is en vogue again right? I see the BLMers and Wokers advocating for it all of the time now.
    Welcome to the R3VOLUTION!

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Okie RP fan View Post
    Andrew Torba of Gab is really pushing for Christians and other liberty types to build a full on parallel society.
    If we can't officially secede, then we need to pursue this where we segregate.

    I mean, segregation is en vogue again right? I see the BLMers and Wokers advocating for it all of the time now.
    Segregation is wholly inadequate. If we're still in Uncle Sugar's territory, we're still subject to his dictates and "justice".

    Secession is literally the only solution to this situation. Otherwise, we're on a fast boat to China... literally.



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  7. #65
    Imagine another American Civil War, but this time in every state
    https://www.npr.org/2022/01/11/10710...in-every-state
    Ron Elving (11 January 2022)

    Not long ago, the idea of another American Civil War seemed outlandish.

    These days, the notion has not only gone mainstream, it seems to suddenly be everywhere.

    Business Insider published a poll in October 2020 saying a majority of Americans believed the U.S. was already in the midst of a "cold" civil war. Then last fall, the University of Virginia Center for Politics released a poll finding that a majority of people who had voted to reelect former President Donald Trump in 2020 now wanted their state tosecede from the Union.

    The UVA data also showed a stunning 41% of those who voted for Joe Biden in 2020 also said it might now be "time to split the country."

    Researchers have found such downbeat assessments of America's democracy are especially salient among the young. Last month, the Institute of Politics at Harvard's Kennedy School published a poll that found half of voting age Americans under 30 thought our democracy was "in trouble" or "failing." A third also said they expected there to be "a civil war" within their lifetimes. And a quarter thought at least one state would secede.

    The more one hears this particular drumbeat, the louder it becomes.

    Late last year, the University of Maryland and The Washington Post produced a poll saying that one-third of Americans thought violence against the government was "sometimes justified" — a belief they found even more widely held among Republicans and independents. According to the Post, just about 1 American in 10 held that view in the 1990s.

    Do the respondents in all these polls fully realize what these terms mean or their answers imply? Possibly not. Talk is often cheap, and pollsters can ask a lot of provocative questions in pursuit of something noteworthy — or buzzworthy.

    What do people even mean by "civil war"? Let us assume it would not be a return to the 1860s, when 11 Southern states left the Union and fought a four-year war to assert their right to do so and preserve the practice of slavery, which had about 4 million African Americans in bondage at the time.

    The American Civil War cost the lives of at least 600,000 Americans and contributed to the deaths of many thousands more. It devastated the South economically and left most of those in the region who had been emancipated to lives of peonage and penury.

    Moreover, it did little to settle the constitutional issue of "states' rights," a problematic point in our national conversation ever since. Salient in the struggles for civil rights and voting rights, it remains so in the squabbles over the mask and vaccine mandates of today.

    States' rights, still with us

    The rights of states to go their own way on fundamental issues are also still front and center in the Supreme Court, where abortion rights pose an immediate example. Texas and other states want to make the procedure all but unavailable, while much of the nation prefers the access granted nationwide by the court's Roe v. Wade decision in 1973.

    "We already are seeing 'border war' with individual states passing major legislation that differs considerably from that in other places," says Darrell West, director of governance studies at the Brookings Institution, and William Gale, a Brookings senior fellow in economic studies, who have written a pair of articles on the fraying of the American social and political fabric.

    They note that conflicts between entire states are not the only way civil war may emerge in our time, or even the most likely. When and if the issue turns to violent confrontations between local citizens and federal officers, or between contentious groups of citizens, the clash might well take place far closer to home. As West and Gale write:

    Today's toxic atmosphere makes it difficult to negotiate on important issues, which makes people angry with the federal government and has helped create a winner-take-all approach to politics. When the stakes are so high, people are willing to consider extraordinary means to achieve their objectives.

    And what do these careful scholars mean by "extraordinary means"?

    "America has an extraordinary number of guns and private militias," they write. How many? They cite the National Shooting Sports Foundation's estimate of 434 million firearms in civilian possession in the U.S. right now. That would be 1.3 guns per person.

    "Semi-automatic weapons comprise around 19.8 million in total," they add ominously, "making for a highly armed population with potentially dangerous capabilities."

    The New York Times recently reviewed How Civil Wars Start by political scientist Barbara F. Walter of the University of California at San Diego. In an interview with NPR member station KPBS in San Diego a year ago, Walter said the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol was surprising but should not have been because we had been watching "American democracy decline since 2016."

    A scholar of international law, Walter adds: "The U.S. used to be considered a full democracy like Norway, Switzerland or Iceland," she said, "and it's now considered a partial democracy like Ecuador, Somalia or Haiti."

    Drawing different lines today

    The geographical divides in our time are different from those of the 1860s. We can still trace the original Mason-Dixon line that separated the regions of "free soil" from "slave states," and there are real differences on either side of that ancient demarcation even today.

    But the most meaningful geographic separation in our society is no longer as tidy as North and South, or East and West. It is the familiar divide between urban and rural, or to update that a bit: metro versus non-metro.

    Thus a "blue state" such as Maine has populous coastal counties that voted for Biden and sparsely populated interior counties that went heavily for Trump, enough to tip the majority to him in one of the state's two congressional districts. Conversely, in ruby red state Nebraska, one congressional district anchored in the city of Omaha went for Biden.

    This dynamic also shows up in the biggest population states, the top prizes in the Electoral College. In California, where the coastal cities are famously liberal, the Central Valley counties are still far more conservative.

    And in Texas, Biden carried the six largest metros in 2020, due largely to their growing numbers of people of color. But most of the state's 254 counties are outside these metros; in rural Texas, the Republican vote share is still the lion's share.

    That may change over time, but for now we're less a nation divided into 50 states than we are two nations that are both present in each of those states. Each is dominant in its own space and certain that it is the real America.

    You can measure some of this geographic/demographic division in the 2020 election results. Trump won in 2,588 counties covering most of the national landscape, as Republican candidates usually do. (This is why we are accustomed to Election Night maps that are strikingly red even as the popular vote is close or leans Democratic.)

    Biden, in stark contrast, carried only 551 counties, less than a quarter as many as Trump. But the counties Biden carried had a total population of nearly 198 million, while Trump's altogether had just 130.3 million. That is a difference of nearly 68 million people. Put another way, Biden won the counties that are home to 60% of the total U.S. population.

    It is hard to believe when staring at a map on which Biden's counties are scattered blue dots on a sea of red. But those blue dots are where most of the country lives. When you look at the top ten states by metro percentage of total state population, Biden won all ten.

    Trump did win a few inner-core urban counties here and there, with a combined population of 4.7 million. Biden won the rest of that category with a combined population of 97 million. That is a ratio of 20 to 1.

    Moreover, the Biden counties are where most of the population growth is happening. Less than a fifth of the counties account for 77% of the Latino or Hispanic community and 86% of Asian American community nationwide.

    Is civil war a self-fulfilling anxiety?

    The forces of disunity are disquieting, to say the least. But must it all come to blows? Can we still center ourselves and pull back from whatever brink we are approaching?

    Irish Times writer Fintan O'Toole offered a cautionary message just before Christmas in The Atlantic, recounting some of his horrific memories from "the troubles" in his homeland in the late 1900s. Even then, he says, with all the provocation on both sides, "it never got to a full-blown civil war."

    It doesn't do to behave as if our divisions must compel us to bloodshed, he adds, because dwelling on such thoughts and making such predictions may bring that prospect closer to reality, even if intended to do the opposite.

    That makes sense, especially if you believe that too much thinking about the unthinkable can become acceptance of the unacceptable.

    And however you personally regard the meaning of what happened on Jan. 6, 2021, we know now that nothing in American politics is unthinkable.

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    "We already are seeing 'border war' with individual states passing major legislation that differs considerably from that in other places," says Darrell West, director of governance studies at the Brookings Institution, and William Gale, a Brookings senior fellow in economic studies, who have written a pair of articles on the fraying of the American social and political fabric.

    They note that conflicts between entire states are not the only way civil war may emerge in our time, or even the most likely. When and if the issue turns to violent confrontations between local citizens and federal officers, or between contentious groups of citizens, the clash might well take place far closer to home. As West and Gale write:

    Today's toxic atmosphere makes it difficult to negotiate on important issues, which makes people angry with the federal government and has helped create a winner-take-all approach to politics. When the stakes are so high, people are willing to consider extraordinary means to achieve their objectives.
    Of course.

    This is the reductio ad absurdum of continent-spanning mass "democracy" on a scale of a third of a billion people.

    How else could it be? What else was to be expected?
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 01-16-2022 at 10:22 AM.

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    The New York Times recently reviewed How Civil Wars Start by political scientist Barbara F. Walter of the University of California at San Diego. In an interview with NPR member station KPBS in San Diego a year ago, Walter said the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol was surprising but should not have been because we had been watching "American democracy decline since 2016."

    A scholar of international law, Walter adds: "The U.S. used to be considered a full democracy like Norway, Switzerland or Iceland," she said, "and it's now considered a partial democracy like Ecuador, Somalia or Haiti."
    "Democracy" as "considered" by whom?

    "Democracy" as defined by whom?

    "Democracy" by what standard?

    This one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    "It's only democracy when my side is succeeding."


  10. #68
    "Semi-automatic weapons comprise around 19.8 million in total," they add ominously, "making for a highly armed population with potentially dangerous capabilities."
    Tell me you know nothing about guns without saying that you know nothing about guns.

    The New York Times recently reviewed How Civil Wars Start by political scientist Barbara F. Walter of the University of California at San Diego. In an interview with NPR member station KPBS in San Diego a year ago, Walter said the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol was surprising but should not have been because we had been watching "American democracy decline since 2016."

    A scholar of international law, Walter adds: "The U.S. used to be considered a full democracy like Norway, Switzerland or Iceland," she said, "and it's now considered a partial democracy like Ecuador, Somalia or Haiti."
    In addition to the paragraph preceding regarding guns, I'd like to congratulate the author on compiling the 3 least coherent paragraphs I've ever read in an article.

    Irish Times writer Fintan O'Toole offered a cautionary message just before Christmas in The Atlantic, recounting some of his horrific memories from "the troubles" in his homeland in the late 1900s. Even then, he says, with all the provocation on both sides, "it never got to a full-blown civil war."
    I'm not familiar with Fintan O'Toole, but the Irish did in fact fight a civil war in the 1920's. Also I'd like suggest to Mr. O'Toole that "the Troubles" are often exactly what civil wars actually look like in most cases. That the fighting wasn't more widespread than it was is more due to the fact that the area of conflict was largely contained in Ulster, rather than the whole of the island. In my opinion, and I remember saying this to friends at the time, the biggest reason that the Troubles petered out was because of September 11th. Funding from the US dried up, on both sides of the conflict; and the will to fight a guerrilla war largely evaporated. There have been minor outbreaks from time to time since, but nothing like the '90's. I spent a semester in Ireland in '96 - our flight landed the same day as the Canary Wharf bombing in London.

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    "Democracy" as "considered" by whom?

    "Democracy" as defined by whom?

    "Democracy" by what standard?
    A scholar of international law, Walter adds: "The U.S. used to be considered a full democracy like Norway, Switzerland or Iceland," she said, "and it's now considered a partial democracy like Ecuador, Somalia or Haiti."
    Bemoaning that which they themselves created.
    "Truly, whoever can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

  12. #70

  13. #71
    "Truly, whoever can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

  14. #72
    THREAD: SPLC poll re: civil war, political assassinations, and "Replacement Theory"

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Polling for this was conducted by the SPLC (for whatever that is - or isn't - worrth).

    Here is a summary of the reported results:

    Civil war:
    • 53% of Republicans said the U.S. “seems headed toward a civil war in the near future.”
    • 39% of Democrats said the U.S. “seems headed toward a civil war in the near future.”
    • 44% of all respondents said the U.S. “seems headed toward a civil war in the near future.”

    Assassination of politicians:
    • 44% of young male Democrats polled said they could countenance political assassination.
    • 40% of young female Republicans polled said they could countenance political assassination.
    • Those 50 and older were not fans of assassination, no matter their party or gender.

    Replacement theory:
    • 48% of all respondents said they believe that “progressive and liberal leaders” are “actively trying to leverage political power by replacing more conservative white voters.”
    • Two-thirds of Republicans said they believe that.
    • 35% of Democrats said they believe that.
    • 42% of independents said they believe that.



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Only if the capital of 'Murica is in Texas.
    Isn't it already?

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    Isn't it already?
    Your damn right
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  18. #75
    Rather than dividing the USA which would solve nothing, I prefer the Solution use in Indonesia in 1965 and in Chile in the early 1970's- mass physical elimination of the marxist Left. It is clear normal folks and the Deep State Left's minions cannot share the world in peace.

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by paleocon1 View Post
    Rather than dividing the USA which would solve nothing, I prefer the Solution use in Indonesia in 1965 and in Chile in the early 1970's- mass physical elimination of the marxist Left. It is clear normal folks and the Deep State Left's minions cannot share the world in peace.
    I would prefer to peacefully secede but I find your alternative to also be acceptable
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  20. #77
    IT’S BEYOND TIME FOR A NATIONAL DIVORCE
    https://mises.org/power-market/its-b...tional-divorce
    Matthew Arostegui (14 June 2022)

    It’s been about six years since Michael Malice wrote his article “The Case for American Secession,” for the Observer. Link here: https://observer.com/2016/06/the-cas...can-secession/ [OR see post #78 below - OB]. Since then, the talk of a disuniting of the American Empire has been discussed by people on the right, left, and the middle. There has always been a multitude of cultures in the USA, however recently the cultures on the right and the left have bubbled over into the political sphere. Everything from BLM protests gone violent, to January 6 protests entering the Capitol, shows that the political discourse is at a tipping point.

    Every four years, a portion of American citizens go out and vote for who will sit in the White House and dictate many aspects of their lives. The right calls whoever is running on the left a commie, and the left calls whoever is running on the right a fascist. The political divide is getting deeper, you can see it at your Thanksgiving dinner table, in the media, and in national research polls. The question I ask, and asked by Michael Malice six years ago, is why should we remain as one country?

    What is holding us together anymore? For those on the left, why would you not want to separate from the racist, fascist, hillbillies that you despise so much? You could have a much more left leaning country, where you could have UBI, universal healthcare, etc. You could adopt a model like the Nordic states in Europe. For the right, why would you not want to separate from the evil baby killing, commie, uppity yankees that you hate, and who don’t want you to be able to carry a firearm to protect your family? You could have a country where you could have constitutional carry, the Bible taught in schools, and outlawed abortion.

    When I speak with my family and friends on the right side of the culture, their adverse reaction to a national divorce is usually about either what would some foreign powers do, or what about the idea of America. Well first, the idea of America is dead. We are a debtor’s economy now, with a global empire that is vastly overstretched and we are paying for it here at home. Inflation, caused not just by Biden, but by all those in congress that have voted for decades to keep the money printer going burr. And on the foreign power, such as China? The paper tiger economy of that quasi communist state is surrounded by enemies, and would have trouble mounting the largest amphibious assault in the history of earth on Taiwan, let alone America.

    Any friends I speak with on the left that are against the idea of a peaceful national divorce, they’ll just say things like, “Well what would happen to all those minorities in the new conservative country or countries?” I don’t know, they’d likely go about their daily lives, with a better chance of affecting their government with it being smaller. The arguments I generally get from the left are all about what the left generally wants, power. They want you to submit to their drag queen story time hour for toddlers, and if you reject that, then you must be put in your place.

    There are many valid questions to ask when discussing national divorce, what would happen to the nukes, federal government property, national debt, etc. This can all be done peacefully and without bloodshed. Look at the dissolution of the Soviet Union not long ago. A couple months after I turned one, the Soviet Union fell, and if you would have asked experts in the decades leading up to that, most never saw it coming. That was done mostly peacefully, and nuclear weapons were not spread out across the world and used in dirty bombs like you would see in Hollywood movies. Federal property, the national debt, and other issues are all something that will have to be negotiated by lawyers and politicians, but I repeat myself, if and hopefully when states begin to secede.

    Recently the Libertarian Party, the third largest party in the USA, had sweeping victories for the Mises Caucus, who then proceeded to add secession to the planks of the party. It is time for Republican parties in each state, to do the same. Add secession to the planks of your state party, and fight like hell for it. I don’t see state Democratic parties adding this to their planks, but if you are involved in your state democratic party, you should really consider the opportunity this would give you.

    I have looked at countless different national divorce scenarios, from two different countries to ten different countries. When the dust settles from the breaking up of the world’s largest empire in the history of the world, we would see a peaceful and more prosperous America, or Americas I should say. You may ask, what about my favorite sports teams, yes, they can play other teams from other countries, it happens in most major sports already with teams in Canada, or throughout Europe. You may ask, what about defense? Well, we’d likely see mutual defense pacts form for the new countries, so that if any foreign powers, as unlikely and disastrous for them as it would be, decided to invade the former borders of the USA, then they would have a defensive pact.

    If you need any other motivation to entertain the idea of a national divorce, just look at the national debt, the skyrocketing prices for everything from food to homes. I’m in my early thirties with a stable good paying job, and it’s still hard for me to purchase a home. Multiple debt bubbles are ready to burst, social security running out in the next fifteen years. The US government has troops in over seventy countries worldwide, with about eight hundred bases! The global empire is just not sustainable, it never was, and our politicians in DC used it to enrich themselves and their friends. It’s time we broke away from the corrupt DC swampy empire, that has done nothing but destroyed our economy and our culture.

    National divorce is a scary proposition. Just as anything you do in life that will better yourself or your family will likely be a scary decision. Can we afford a house at this mortgage rate, another car, school, etc. Just as on an individual level, we make the decision for being better in the long term or short term, we must make that decision on a national level as well. I fear that if we do not have peaceful votes at state levels to secede and join new forming nations, we are all headed down the path of most other falling empires. Ruin, and death.

  21. #78
    The Case for American Secession
    Why it’s time to disunite the States
    https://observer.com/2016/06/the-cas...can-secession/
    Michael Malice (29 June 2016)

    Even when we were united ideologically as a country, we have never been united culturally.

    The United States of America has spent very few years truly unified. There was the Era of Good Feelings, which followed the collapse of Alexander Hamilton’s Federalist party. There was the FDR administration, up to and including WWII. And there were brief windows during the Bush presidencies, during the Kuwait war and post-9/11 respectively. It is a sad irony that the biggest flag-wavers in the United States are also the main opponents of multiculturalism. In fact, American patriotism is multiculturalist at its very core and in all its manifestations. The two are conceptually inseparable.

    But such moments of national consensus hide the deeper point: even when we were united ideologically as a country, we have never been united culturally. We have never had a single culture in the United States, and it is increasingly unlikely that we ever will. Albert Camus opined that one must imagine Sisyphus happy. The rest of us might consider other paths to happiness than rolling the same rock up the same hill for centuries and expecting a different outcome. It isn’t “the definition of insanity”—but it certainly isn’t very sane.

    The creation myth for evangelical progressivism is the Civil War. For them, it’s when the United States truly became a nation and repudiated its racist, slaveholding origins. A look at the current Liberty Bell exhibit in Philadelphia, for example, implies that the most important thing that George Washington did was to manumit his slaves upon his death. This view of American history is a recent one but it is a valid one. For one culture, this is what the real America is: a colorblind society where the circumstances of one’s birth are irrelevant.

    For the other American culture, this is sheer propaganda. Lincoln expressly and repeatedly said he would gladly retain slavery if it would politically reunite the country. The idea that white Northerners would send hundreds of thousands of their sons to die on behalf of American blacks would seem preposterous today. It’s even more absurd to accept this as the state of affairs 150 years ago, when white supremacy was largely considered an indisputable fact. This was an era where a man like William Lloyd Garrison was almost lynched in Boston for espousing full legal equality between the races.

    Southerners like to claim the Civil War was about States’ Rights. In a sense, that is certainly true. Similarly, gun rights can be regarded as the extension of the right to property. With gun owners, said property is intended to be used to hunt or in self-defense. Yet with the Confederates, those “states’ rights” were about the “right” for one human being to own property in another. Which perspective is correct is somewhat beside the point. The real point is: will either side be able to persuade the other?

    Wars establish dominance, not truth. Hitler would have been wrong if he managed to win some sort of negotiated European peace. Stalin’s victory over the Nazis does not vindicate his knowingly and consciously murdering of millions. Yet when it comes to the American South, this concept goes completely out the window. The question of secession was settled by the Civil War, we are told. To defend secession is to defend slavery or at the very least racism. Legally and politically, this is a difficult position to maintain. The two concepts are hardly synonymous, despite their historical confluence.

    The issue at hand has never actually been resolved: Does a state (or group of states) have the right to secede? Is that right predicated upon the reasons, de facto or de jure, for the attempted secession? Are there no-fault “divorce” laws here, or does there need to be some sort of culpability before the relationship is sundered?

    One fundamental question that progressives struggle with is whether racists, Nazis, white supremacists and all sorts of ‘phobes have the same rights as regular people. If not, then to what extent do they lack them? The homophobic grandfather and the rabid Klansman both practice bigotry, but are clearly different phenomena. They differ in terms of their capacity to be educated, and they differ in their level of threat. Are they both worthy of equal shame and approbation—let alone identical legal repercussions?

    The real conundrum is why two cultures should attempt to move forward as one unit when they are increasingly diverging in their world views—and never had the same worldview to begin with. We couldn’t bring liberal democracy to Iraq, and we couldn’t bring it to the South. At some point American progressives need to stop viewing the South as their whipping boy, being perpetually flagellated for its sins. It’s long past time to allow Kansans to live as they see fit, regardless of how wrongheaded they may sound—instead of wondering “What’s the Matter with Kansas?” True, a house divided against itself cannot stand. But some houses don’t need to remain standing at all.

  22. #79
    This is from a year ago, but in just half a year since the prior survey (see the quote above), every percentage went up everywhere, except among Republicans in the northeast (which declined by only 1%, well within the margin of error).

    (h/t Michael Malice - "National divorce is coming, inshallah.")

    SOURCE: Still miles apart: Americans and the state of U.S. democracy half a year into the Biden presidency / Bright Line Watch June 2021 surveys

    Secession

    President Biden made it a signature goal to reunite a country scarred by partisan and regional divides. Our surveys seek to assess whether the animus that characterized the Trump era persists. We therefore repeated a question from our January/February 2021 survey asking respondents in our public sample about their support for breaking up the United States. As in last winter’s survey, we asked respondents the following:

    “Would you support or oppose [your state] seceding from the United States to join a new union with [list of states in new union]?” The response options were: Strongly support, Somewhat support, Somewhat oppose, Strongly oppose. For simplicity, we group responses in the map by support versus opposition.

    We constructed five prospective new unions and inserted the relevant states for respondents into the question wording above. For example, a participant from California in our survey would be asked about joining a new union along with Washington, Oregon, Hawaii and Alaska. These sets are provided below:

    • Pacific: California, Washington, Oregon, Hawaii, and Alaska
    • Mountain: Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Colorado, Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico
    • South: Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Kentucky, and Tennessee
    • Heartland: Michigan, Ohio, West Virginia, Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Missouri, North Dakota, South Dakota, Kansas, and Nebraska
    • Northeast: Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Delaware, and the District of Columbia

    As in our previous report, we caution that this survey item reflects initial reactions by respondents about an issue that they are very unlikely to have considered carefully. Secession is a genuinely radical proposition and expressions of support in a survey may map only loosely onto willingness to act toward that end. We include the question because it taps into respondents’ commitments to the American political system at the highest level and with reference to a concrete alternative (regional unions).

    Support for secession under the specific hypothetical unions format is illustrated in the map below. As in the previous survey, levels of expressed support for secession are arrestingly high, with 37% of respondents overall indicating willingness to secede. Within each region, the dominant partisan group is most supportive of secession. Republicans are most secessionist in the South and Mountain regions whereas it is Democrats on the West Coast and in the Northeast. In the narrowly divided Heartland region, it is partisan independents who find the idea most attractive. [bold emphasis added - OB]


    These patterns are consistent from our January/February survey, but the changes since then are troubling. Our previous survey was fielded just weeks after the January 6 uprising. By this summer, we anticipated, political tempers may have cooled — not necessarily as a result of any great reconciliation but perhaps from sheer exhaustion after the relentless drama of Trump. For instance, the historian Heather Cox Richardson posited that sustained consideration of the Big Lie narrative would diminish political ardor among Trump supporters, which she related to waning popular support for secession in the Confederacy during the spring of 1861.

    Yet rather than support for secession diminishing over the past six months, as we expected, it rose in every region and among nearly every partisan group. The jump is most dramatic where support was already highest (and has the greatest historical precedent) — among Republicans in the South, where secession support leapt from 50% in January/February to 66% in June. Support among Republicans in the Mountain region increased as well, by 7 points, from 36% to 43%. Among Democrats in the West, a near-majority of 47% (up 6 points) supports a schism, as do 39% (up 5 points) in Northeast. Support jumped 9 points among independents in the Heartland as well, reaching 43%. Even subordinate partisan groups appear to find secession more appealing now than they did last winter, though only increases for Democrats in the South, Heartland, and Mountain regions are statistically discernible at the 0.05 significance level. The broad and increasing willingness of respondents to embrace these alternatives is a cause for concern. [bold emphasis added - OB]


  23. #80
    levels of expressed support for secession are arrestingly high
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his



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  25. #81

  26. #82

  27. #83
    A quarter of Americans open to taking up arms against government, poll says
    Survey of 1,000 registered US voters also reveals that most Americans agree government is ‘corrupt and rigged’
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...nst-government
    Victoria Bekiempis (30 June 2022)

    More than one quarter of US residents feel so estranged from their government that they feel it might “soon be necessary to take up arms” against it, a poll released on Thursday claimed.

    This survey of 1,000 registered US voters, published by the University of Chicago’s Institute of Politics (IOP), also revealed that most Americans agree the government is “corrupt and rigged against everyday people like me”.

    The data suggests that extreme polarization in US politics – and its impact on Americans’ relationships with each other – remain strong. These statistics come as a congressional committee is holding public hearings on the January 6 insurrection.

    This deadly attack on the US Capitol stemmed from the false, partisan, pro-Donald Trump belief that Joe Biden did not win the 2020 election. Rioters attempted to thwart certification of the election, in an effort to keep Trump in office.

    Although the violent insurrectionists targeted Republicans and Democrats alike, GOP Trump loyalists have insisted that the committee is illegitimate. These attacks on the committee intensified after Trump staffers themselves – including former attorney general Bill Barr – publicly described his efforts to push “the big lie” that the presidential election was stolen.

    The survey indicates that distrust in government varies among party lines. While 56% of participants said they “generally trust elections to be conducted fairly and counted accurately”, Republicans, Democrats and independents were dramatically split on this point. Nearly 80% of Democrats voiced overall trust in elections, but that number dipped to 51% among independents and a mere 33% of Republicans.

    Per the poll, 49% of Americans concurred that they “more and more feel like a stranger in my own country”. Again, this number reflected sharp political divisions: the sentiment was held by 69% of self-described “strong Republicans”, 65% of self-described “very conservative” persons, and 38% of “strong Democrats”.

    Of the 28% of voters who felt it might soon be necessary “to take up arms against the government”, 37% had guns in their homes, according to the data.

    One-third of Republicans – including 45% of “strong Republicans – hold this belief about taking up arms. 35% of independent voters, and 20% of Democrats, also agreed, the poll said.

    Meanwhile, those polled voiced negative sentiments about persons from opposing political parties. Seventy-three per cent of self-described Republican voters agreed that “Democrats are generally bullies who want to impose their political beliefs on those who disagree,” and “an almost identical percentage of Democrats (74%) express that view of Republicans”.

    “While we’ve documented for years the partisan polarization in the country, these poll results are perhaps the starkest evidence of the deep divisions in partisan attitudes rippling through the country,” said the Republican pollster Neil Newhouse, who conducted the survey in May with and Democratic pollster Joel Benenson.

    The survey also stated that almost half of respondents expressed averting political talk with other people “because I don’t know where they stand”. One-quarter described losing friends, and a similar proportion claimed to have avoided relatives and friends, due to politics, per the survey.

  28. #84
    Funny how both sides want to secede yet both sides are scared to pull the trigger first.
    "Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."

    Calvin Coolidge

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    A quarter of Americans open to taking up arms against government, poll says
    I’m sure Uncle Sugar’s internal numbers show this as well, hence the uptick in mass ‘shootings’.

  30. #86

  31. #87
    https://twitter.com/michaelmalice/st...03599810715649


    NEW POLL: More Trump Voters in Red States Say Secession Would Make Things Better
    https://www.mediaite.com/news/new-po...things-better/
    Tommy Christopher (16 July 2022)

    More Trump voters living in Republican-controlled states said secession would make things better in their states than those who said it would not, according to a new poll.

    Respondents to a new Yahoo! News/YouGov poll were asked “Do you think your state would be better off or worse off if it left the United States and became an independent country?”

    Among all respondents, more than twice as many said they’d be “worse off” (43%) as those who said things would be “better off” (18%), while 15% said things would be about the same and another 24% responded they were “not sure.”

    But Yahoo News West Coast Correspondent Andrew Romano broke down the responses to a more granular level, and found people in red states who voted for former President Donald Trump were much more amenable to seceding:

    Red-state Donald Trump voters are now more likely to say they’d be personally “better off” (33%) than “worse off” (29%) if their state seceded from the U.S. and “became an independent country,” according to a new Yahoo News/YouGov poll.

    It’s a striking rejection of national unity that dramatizes the growing culture war between Democratic- and Republican-controlled states on core issues such as guns, abortion and democracy itself. And an even larger share of red-state Trump voters say their state as a whole would be better off (35%) rather than worse off (30%) if it left the U.S.

    The survey of 1,672 U.S. adults, which was conducted from July 8 to 11, comes as a series of hard-line conservative decisions by the Supreme Court — coupled with continued gridlock on Capitol Hill — have shifted America’s center of political gravity back to the states, where the parties in power are increasingly filling the federal void with far-reaching reforms of their own.

    Given the attention surrounding the blockbuster January 6 hearings into the Trump-fueled attack on the Capitol, the numbers could have been worse.

  32. #88
    The Economics of National Divorce

    Lots of Americans now openly discuss the idea of National Divorce, focusing on the political, cultural, and social divisions in America. But what about the economics? How would issues like debt, entitlements, and defense be addressed if the US split into two or more new political entities?

    Mises.org senior editor and economist Ryan McMaken joins Jeff Deist to discuss.

    Listen to Hoppe on centralization and secession: https://mises.org/library/political-...-and-secession

    00:00 Introduction
    02:16 Research on National Breakups
    04:16 Are Bigger Nations Better?
    07:20 Decentralization and Secession
    10:25 What Happens to the National Debt?
    14:34 The 1995 Quebec Referendum
    27:19 Entitlements Under a Breakup
    34:48 Breaking up the Cultural and Economic Divide
    41:51 Will China Take Over the World if the USA Splits?
    46:13 Global Trade with Divorced States
    https://odysee.com/@mises:1/the-econ...onal-divorce:5



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  34. #89
    Time to stop messing around and secede already.
    "Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."

    Calvin Coolidge

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    A quarter of Americans open to taking up arms against government, poll says
    Survey of 1,000 registered US voters also reveals that most Americans agree government is ‘corrupt and rigged’
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...nst-government
    Victoria Bekiempis (30 June 2022)

    More than one quarter of US residents feel so estranged from their government that they feel it might “soon be necessary to take up arms” against it, a poll released on Thursday claimed.

    This survey of 1,000 registered US voters, published by the University of Chicago’s Institute of Politics (IOP), also revealed that most Americans agree the government is “corrupt and rigged against everyday people like me”.

    The data suggests that extreme polarization in US politics – and its impact on Americans’ relationships with each other – remain strong. These statistics come as a congressional committee is holding public hearings on the January 6 insurrection.

    This deadly attack on the US Capitol stemmed from the false, partisan, pro-Donald Trump belief that Joe Biden did not win the 2020 election. Rioters attempted to thwart certification of the election, in an effort to keep Trump in office.

    Although the violent insurrectionists targeted Republicans and Democrats alike, GOP Trump loyalists have insisted that the committee is illegitimate. These attacks on the committee intensified after Trump staffers themselves – including former attorney general Bill Barr – publicly described his efforts to push “the big lie” that the presidential election was stolen.

    The survey indicates that distrust in government varies among party lines. While 56% of participants said they “generally trust elections to be conducted fairly and counted accurately”, Republicans, Democrats and independents were dramatically split on this point. Nearly 80% of Democrats voiced overall trust in elections, but that number dipped to 51% among independents and a mere 33% of Republicans.

    Per the poll, 49% of Americans concurred that they “more and more feel like a stranger in my own country”. Again, this number reflected sharp political divisions: the sentiment was held by 69% of self-described “strong Republicans”, 65% of self-described “very conservative” persons, and 38% of “strong Democrats”.

    Of the 28% of voters who felt it might soon be necessary “to take up arms against the government”, 37% had guns in their homes, according to the data.

    One-third of Republicans – including 45% of “strong Republicans – hold this belief about taking up arms. 35% of independent voters, and 20% of Democrats, also agreed, the poll said.

    Meanwhile, those polled voiced negative sentiments about persons from opposing political parties. Seventy-three per cent of self-described Republican voters agreed that “Democrats are generally bullies who want to impose their political beliefs on those who disagree,” and “an almost identical percentage of Democrats (74%) express that view of Republicans”.

    “While we’ve documented for years the partisan polarization in the country, these poll results are perhaps the starkest evidence of the deep divisions in partisan attitudes rippling through the country,” said the Republican pollster Neil Newhouse, who conducted the survey in May with and Democratic pollster Joel Benenson.

    The survey also stated that almost half of respondents expressed averting political talk with other people “because I don’t know where they stand”. One-quarter described losing friends, and a similar proportion claimed to have avoided relatives and friends, due to politics, per the survey.
    Regarding the same poll:

    Nearly one in three Americans say it may soon be necessary to take up arms against the government
    https://thehill.com/homenews/3572278...he-government/
    Brad Dress (24 July 2022)

    A majority of Americans say the U.S. government is corrupt and almost a third say it may soon be necessary to take up arms against it, according to a new poll from the University of Chicago’s Institute of Politics.

    Two-thirds of Republicans and independents say the government is “corrupt and rigged against everyday people like me,” according to the poll, compared to 51 percent of liberal voters.

    Twenty-eight percent of all voters, including 37 percent of gun owners, agreed “it may be necessary at some point soon for citizens to take up arms against the government,” a view held by around 35 percent of Republicans and around 35 percent of Independents. One in five Democrats concurred.

    The findings come after a House committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, riots at the U.S. Capitol wrapped up its final hearing for the summer, seeking to place former President Trump at the heart of efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

    The panel also said Trump readily accepted and even encouraged the attack from his supporters, watching violence play out on television for nearly three hours before finally making a statement telling them to go home.

    Despite the hearings, Trump still enjoys broad support among Republicans, who are more concerned about inflation, education and crime than they are about Jan. 6.

    About 56 percent of Americans say elections are fair and accurate, but that number falls to 33 percent among Republicans, according to the Chicago University poll.

    The division between conservatives and liberals across the country is only growing, the poll shows, and a quarter of Americans say they have lost friends over politics.

    More than 70 percent of Republicans and more than 70 percent of Democrats both agree the other side “are generally bullies who want to impose their political beliefs on those who disagree.”

    And half of all Americans believe the other side is misinformed about politics because of where they get their information and news, the poll found.

    The University of Chicago-Public Opinion Strategies-Benenson Strategy Group poll was conducted May 19 to May 23 among 1,000 registered voters. The margin of error is plus or minus 3.53 percentage points.

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