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Thread: 25% of Americans say it's time to split up

  1. #31
    https://twitter.com/LPMisesCaucus/st...19579822403595
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 09-30-2021 at 09:52 PM.



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  3. #32
    Dissecting David French's Article Against National Divorce
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQVmEqffnII


    The article:

    A Whiff of Civil War in the Air
    https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/...war-in-the-air
    David French (03 October 2021)



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    We need to ignore their propaganda maps and concentrate on this map (and Alberta, Canada too).

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    I've composed a map of the states for which governors or attorneys general have declared opposition to or criticism of the Biden administration's federal vaccine mandate.



    Some of the declarations are pretty weak sauce, and it remains to be seen if even the fire-breathing ones are anything more than the bloviations of posturing gas-bags. Of course, the real test will come if the feds win the inevitable court challenges. If that happens, then we'll see who bends the knee, and the wheat (if any) will be separated from the chaff.

    Here are the statements or expressions upon which the map is based:

    Alabama (Governor): “Once again, President Biden has missed the mark. His outrageous, overreaching mandates will no doubt be challenged in the courts. Placing more burdens on both employers and employees during a pandemic with the rising inflation rates and lingering labor shortages is totally unacceptable. Alabamians have stepped up by rolling up their sleeves to get the covid-19 vaccine, increasing our doses administered significantly in recent weeks. We have done so without mandates from Washington D.C. or Montgomery. I’ve made it abundantly clear: I support the science and encourage folks taking the vaccine. However, I am absolutely against a government mandate on the vaccine, which is why I signed the vaccine passport ban into law here in Alabama. This is not the role of the government. I continue encouraging any Alabamian who can, to get the covid-19 vaccine. We have a safe and effective tool at our fingertips, so, let’s roll up our sleeves and get this thing beat.”

    Alaska (Governor): https://twitter.com/GovDunleavy/stat...38525355753488
     

    Arkansas (Governor): “I fully support continued efforts to increase vaccination rates across our nation, but the federal government mandates on private businesses are not the right answer. I have been consistent in the freedom of businesses to require their employees to be vaccinated, and I have opposed the government from saying businesses cannot exercise that freedom. The same principle should protect private sector from government overreach that requires them to vaccinate all employees.”

    Arizona (Governor): “This is exactly the kind of big government overreach we have tried so hard to prevent in Arizona — now the Biden-Harris administration is hammering down on private businesses and individual freedoms in an unprecedented and dangerous way. This will never stand up in court. This dictatorial approach is wrong, un-American and will do far more harm than good. How many workers will be displaced? How many kids kept out of classrooms? How many businesses fined? The vaccine is and should be a choice. We must and will push back.”

    Florida (Governor): https://twitter.com/BernieSpofforth/...23044080975874
     

    Georgia (Governor): “I will pursue every legal option available to the state of Georgia to stop this blatantly unlawful overreach by the Biden administration.”

    Idaho (Governor): https://twitter.com/kxly4news/status...89067248254977
     

    Indiana (Governor): https://twitter.com/DWilliamsTV/stat...51350389059584
     

    Iowa (Governor): “President Biden is taking dangerous and unprecedented steps to insert the federal government even further into our lives while dismissing the ability of Iowans and Americans to make healthcare decisions for themselves. Biden’s plan will only worsen our workforce shortage and further limit our economic recovery. As I’ve said all along, I believe and trust in Iowans to make the best health decisions for themselves and their families. It’s time for President Biden to do the same. Enough.”

    Kansas (Attorney General): “No president has the legal authority to decree a national vaccine mandate or to punish private businesses that refuse to discriminate against employees based on their health status. President Biden yesterday scolded ‘this is not about freedom,’ but the rule of law most certainly is. If the president's overreaching rhetoric becomes federal action, then rest assured we will vigorously challenge it." [source: https://ag.ks.gov/media-center/news-...accine-mandate]

    Kentucky (Attorney General): https://twitter.com/kyoag/status/1436412473553399819
     

    Mississippi (Governor): “The President has no authority to require that Americans inject themselves because of their employment at a private business. The vaccine itself is life-saving, but this unconstitutional move is terrifying. This is still America, and we still believe in freedom from tyrants.”

    Louisiana (Attorney General): https://twitter.com/thecentersquare/...28269667119111
     

    Missouri (Governor): “The Biden Administration’s recent announcement seeking to dictate personal freedom and private business decisions is an insult to our American principles of individual liberty and free enterprise. This heavy-handed action by the federal government is unwelcome in our state and has potentially dangerous consequences for working families. Vaccination protects us from serious illness, but the decision to get vaccinated is a private health care decision that should remain as such. My administration will always fight back against federal power grabs and government overreach that threatens to limit our freedoms.”Montana (Governor): “President Biden’s vaccination mandate is unlawful and un-American. We are committed to protecting Montanans’ freedoms and liberties against this gross federal overreach.”

    Nebraska (Governor): https://twitter.com/SKMorefield/stat...53861681647616
     

    New Hampshire (Governor): https://twitter.com/KlandriganUL/sta...09335156932609
     

    North Dakota (Governor): https://twitter.com/jeremyjturley/st...71151283003396
     

    Ohio (Governor): https://twitter.com/KDKA/status/1436449471064387589
     

    Oklahoma (Governor): “It is not the government’s role to dictate to private businesses what to do. Once again President Biden is demonstrating his complete disregard for individual freedoms and states’ rights. As long as I am governor, there will be no government vaccine mandates in Oklahoma. My administration will continue to defend Oklahoma values and fight back against the Biden administration’s federal overreach.”

    South Carolina (Governor): “The American Dream has turned into a nightmare under President Biden and the radical Democrats. They have declared war against capitalism, thumbed their noses at the Constitution, and empowered our enemies abroad. Rest assured, we will fight them to the gates of hell to protect the liberty and livelihood of every South Carolinian.”

    South Dakota (Governor): “My legal team is standing by ready to file our lawsuit the minute @Joebiden files his unconstitutional rule. This gross example of federal intrusion will not stand.”

    Tennessee (Governor): https://twitter.com/FOXNashville/sta...48671490502660
     

    Texas (Governor): “Biden’s vaccine mandate is an assault on private businesses. I issued an Executive Order protecting Texans’ right to choose whether they get the COVID vaccine & added it to the special session agenda. Texas is already working to halt this power grab.”

    Utah (Attorney General): https://twitter.com/abc4utah/status/1436146611965542403
     

    West Virginia (Attorney General): https://twitter.com/MorriseyWV/statu...44571570872322
     

    Wyoming (Governor): https://twitter.com/NorthPlattePost/...14309534355457
     


    Sources (if not given above):
    Last edited by acptulsa; 10-05-2021 at 07:30 PM.
    "Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out?"--Will Rogers

    "All I know is what I read in the newspapers, and that's an alibi for my ignorance."--Will Rogers

  6. #34
    People like to make out parts of the south are some sort of bastion of freedom. I assuming because they vote for Republican, but when you think about it really Republican Neocons and authoritarians. Some of these places the police are pretty prolific and militarized.

    I am all for separation but I think people my be disappointed in what may result in these regions. I know some people have completely given up on trying to reach people but if you don't try to reach people you are going to be sorely disappointed come separation day.
    * See my visitor message area for caveats related to my posting history here.
    * Also, I have effectively retired from all social media including posting here and are basically opting out of anything to do with national politics or this country on federal or state level and rather focusing locally. I may stop by from time to time to discuss philosophy on a general level related to Libertarian schools of thought and application in the real world.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    People like to make out parts of the south are some sort of bastion of freedom. I assuming because they vote for Republican, but when you think about it really Republican Neocons and authoritarians. Some of these places the police are pretty prolific and militarized.

    I am all for separation but I think people my be disappointed in what may result in these regions. I know some people have completely given up on trying to reach people but if you don't try to reach people you are going to be sorely disappointed come separation day.
    You realize that right now we have all of that fun plus a rising... I don't actually know what to call it... a rising techno-quasi-socialist-authoritarian-fascist-adjacent... regime emergent within the United States, one nation, indivisible, right? (I get that's a brutal sentence to work thru, but do try, it actually makes sense...).

    Anyway, the point is, I'll take my chances with local police who want to play operator vs. the entire USG apparatus crawling up our asses, thank you very much.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    You realize that right now we have all of that fun plus a rising... I don't actually know what to call it... a rising techno-quasi-socialist-authoritarian-fascist-adjacent... regime emergent within the United States, one nation, indivisible, right? (I get that's a brutal sentence to work thru, but do try, it actually makes sense...).

    Anyway, the point is, I'll take my chances with local police who want to play operator vs. the entire USG apparatus crawling up our asses, thank you very much.
    They would just have more power to hassle you without having to worry about things like the Feds interfering, the Constitution-Bill of Rights.

    I bet if you questioned the people that wanted to separate in those polls, their kind of freedom is nothing like imagined. Like I said, I am all for and prefer separation but without some movement saying what it is going to be like you may end up with more of the same or worse depending where you are.

    For those that think they will be allowed to go off on their own and not be hassled, that is not going to happen when you are outnumbered by people that believe otherwise. People are easily led, it does not have to be this way. If the liberty movement was rebuilt like it was during Ron's 2008 campaign and pushed a list of separation values those people can be led away from authoritarianism.

    Right now you have an entire generation of young people that love of government and it's authority is all they know.
    * See my visitor message area for caveats related to my posting history here.
    * Also, I have effectively retired from all social media including posting here and are basically opting out of anything to do with national politics or this country on federal or state level and rather focusing locally. I may stop by from time to time to discuss philosophy on a general level related to Libertarian schools of thought and application in the real world.

  9. #37

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    https://twitter.com/michaelmalice/st...73203556933633
    Besides Lowry being an insufferable douchebag.
    * See my visitor message area for caveats related to my posting history here.
    * Also, I have effectively retired from all social media including posting here and are basically opting out of anything to do with national politics or this country on federal or state level and rather focusing locally. I may stop by from time to time to discuss philosophy on a general level related to Libertarian schools of thought and application in the real world.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    https://twitter.com/michaelmalice/st...73203556933633
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Lowry, Mental Midget
    It would burn down America to save America, or at least those parts of it considered salvageable.
    Yes. Precisely.

    A disaggregated United States would be instantly less powerful.
    Gasp! Oh noez. Our ability to send our young men and women to die in pointless wars will be less likely!? Perish the thought, Rich. $#@!ing idiot...

    The economic consequences could be severe. The United States of America is a continentwide free-trade zone, creating a vast domestic market that makes us all better off. Exchanging that for a market Balkanized by state or region would be a major loss.
    Yes, history proves that the only way to have free trade zones is if states are ruled by a central authority. (Do I need to provide the /sarc tag here, or is it obvious enough?)

    So far, I'm basically annoyed that the twit has a national platform while I toil away my days earning a fair living.

    Finally, the United States foundering on its domestic divisions would be a significant blow to the prestige of liberal democracy.
    Well, first... no. If the US balkanized, it would prove that "liberal democracy" actually works, in that "the people" would have spoken, and their will would have been done. Second, you chimpanzee, you do not understand the actual founding of These united States. And neither did Lincoln.

    If there were to be sovereign pure-red and blue places, this wouldn’t look like the relatively neat split of the United States into two in the 1860s, but more like post–Peace of Westphalia Europe, with hundreds of different entities.
    I'm sorry, what's the problem here? The Treaty of Westphalia resulted in a dynamic Europe, and contrary to popular opinion did not result in the world wars of the 20th century - those were precipitated by the consolidation of power, not the dissolution of it.

    Some proponents of national divorce say not to worry — it can all be worked out amicably. But if we are going to split up because we can’t even agree on bathroom policies or pronouns, how are we going to agree to divvy up our territory and resources?
    In 99% of the territory, these aren't even questions. Get out and move around the country a little bit, Rich. It would be a problem in NY and CA, but $#@! them. I don't care.

    On the other hand, Texas isn’t quite as ruby-red as it used to be. It could secede and still find itself governed by the very Democrats it hoped to leave behind.
    And this is the difference between state and national politics... and since you only think of FedGov, you don't understand that.

    Besides, would the rest of the country really be willing to watch a state of 29 million people that represents the ninth-largest economy in the world go its own way?
    Multiple responses to this, so I'll go with molon labe. Option number 2 would be, "huh?"

    The real impetus for the talk of a breakup is despair. It constitutes giving up on convincing our fellow Americans, giving up on our common national project, giving up on our birthright.
    Our birthright is the Declaration of Independence, as far as political documents go. Nothing else. Not the constitution, not the lower 48. Not the original 13 colonies. Not any of that. It is the right of self-ownership - the right to life, liberty and property, which is self-evident, and provable. I don't give a DAMN if I'm the only one left on the planet who believes that. I'll assert that right to my death.

    I can't believe this simpleton has a national platform, and here I am pointlessly fussing on an internet backwater website, preaching to the choir. Sigh.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    So far, I'm basically annoyed that the twit has a national platform while I toil away my days earning a fair living.
    Don't bitch. You still own your soul.
    "Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out?"--Will Rogers

    "All I know is what I read in the newspapers, and that's an alibi for my ignorance."--Will Rogers



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  14. #41
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to A Son of Liberty again.

  15. #42
    I know secession is popular to some libertarians, but I would point out it is also popular in the long run to globalists like Soros. They do not want any strong nations, just Balkanized regions, that they will rule as part of a single global empire.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    I know secession is popular to some libertarians, but I would point out it is also popular in the long run to globalists like Soros. They do not want any strong nations, just Balkanized regions, that they will rule as part of a single global empire.
    Of course that's what they want. That's why they keep shoving maps like this in our faces:

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Well, guess what? I don't give a flying $#@! what they want. What I want is out from under this federal psychogarchy. And if they want to play their games, and their games set us up with a way out (and all we have to do is play their game, but not by their rules) I'm for taking it.

    We need to ignore their propaganda maps and concentrate on this map (and Alberta, Canada too). Tell me this nation as defined in blue, and Alberta too, won't be powerful enough to suit you. Tell me that. Does it not have enough nuke missile silos to suit you? Does it not grow a high enough percentage of the world's food?

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    I've composed a map of the states for which governors or attorneys general have declared opposition to or criticism of the Biden administration's federal vaccine mandate.



    Some of the declarations are pretty weak sauce, and it remains to be seen if even the fire-breathing ones are anything more than the bloviations of posturing gas-bags. Of course, the real test will come if the feds win the inevitable court challenges. If that happens, then we'll see who bends the knee, and the wheat (if any) will be separated from the chaff.

    Here are the statements or expressions upon which the map is based:

    Alabama (Governor): “Once again, President Biden has missed the mark. His outrageous, overreaching mandates will no doubt be challenged in the courts. Placing more burdens on both employers and employees during a pandemic with the rising inflation rates and lingering labor shortages is totally unacceptable. Alabamians have stepped up by rolling up their sleeves to get the covid-19 vaccine, increasing our doses administered significantly in recent weeks. We have done so without mandates from Washington D.C. or Montgomery. I’ve made it abundantly clear: I support the science and encourage folks taking the vaccine. However, I am absolutely against a government mandate on the vaccine, which is why I signed the vaccine passport ban into law here in Alabama. This is not the role of the government. I continue encouraging any Alabamian who can, to get the covid-19 vaccine. We have a safe and effective tool at our fingertips, so, let’s roll up our sleeves and get this thing beat.”

    Alaska (Governor): https://twitter.com/GovDunleavy/stat...38525355753488
     

    Arkansas (Governor): “I fully support continued efforts to increase vaccination rates across our nation, but the federal government mandates on private businesses are not the right answer. I have been consistent in the freedom of businesses to require their employees to be vaccinated, and I have opposed the government from saying businesses cannot exercise that freedom. The same principle should protect private sector from government overreach that requires them to vaccinate all employees.”

    Arizona (Governor): “This is exactly the kind of big government overreach we have tried so hard to prevent in Arizona — now the Biden-Harris administration is hammering down on private businesses and individual freedoms in an unprecedented and dangerous way. This will never stand up in court. This dictatorial approach is wrong, un-American and will do far more harm than good. How many workers will be displaced? How many kids kept out of classrooms? How many businesses fined? The vaccine is and should be a choice. We must and will push back.”

    Florida (Governor): https://twitter.com/BernieSpofforth/...23044080975874
     

    Georgia (Governor): “I will pursue every legal option available to the state of Georgia to stop this blatantly unlawful overreach by the Biden administration.”

    Idaho (Governor): https://twitter.com/kxly4news/status...89067248254977
     

    Indiana (Governor): https://twitter.com/DWilliamsTV/stat...51350389059584
     

    Iowa (Governor): “President Biden is taking dangerous and unprecedented steps to insert the federal government even further into our lives while dismissing the ability of Iowans and Americans to make healthcare decisions for themselves. Biden’s plan will only worsen our workforce shortage and further limit our economic recovery. As I’ve said all along, I believe and trust in Iowans to make the best health decisions for themselves and their families. It’s time for President Biden to do the same. Enough.”

    Kansas (Attorney General): “No president has the legal authority to decree a national vaccine mandate or to punish private businesses that refuse to discriminate against employees based on their health status. President Biden yesterday scolded ‘this is not about freedom,’ but the rule of law most certainly is. If the president's overreaching rhetoric becomes federal action, then rest assured we will vigorously challenge it." [source: https://ag.ks.gov/media-center/news-...accine-mandate]

    Kentucky (Attorney General): https://twitter.com/kyoag/status/1436412473553399819
     

    Mississippi (Governor): “The President has no authority to require that Americans inject themselves because of their employment at a private business. The vaccine itself is life-saving, but this unconstitutional move is terrifying. This is still America, and we still believe in freedom from tyrants.”

    Louisiana (Attorney General): https://twitter.com/thecentersquare/...28269667119111
     

    Missouri (Governor): “The Biden Administration’s recent announcement seeking to dictate personal freedom and private business decisions is an insult to our American principles of individual liberty and free enterprise. This heavy-handed action by the federal government is unwelcome in our state and has potentially dangerous consequences for working families. Vaccination protects us from serious illness, but the decision to get vaccinated is a private health care decision that should remain as such. My administration will always fight back against federal power grabs and government overreach that threatens to limit our freedoms.”Montana (Governor): “President Biden’s vaccination mandate is unlawful and un-American. We are committed to protecting Montanans’ freedoms and liberties against this gross federal overreach.”

    Nebraska (Governor): https://twitter.com/SKMorefield/stat...53861681647616
     

    New Hampshire (Governor): https://twitter.com/KlandriganUL/sta...09335156932609
     

    North Dakota (Governor): https://twitter.com/jeremyjturley/st...71151283003396
     

    Ohio (Governor): https://twitter.com/KDKA/status/1436449471064387589
     

    Oklahoma (Governor): “It is not the government’s role to dictate to private businesses what to do. Once again President Biden is demonstrating his complete disregard for individual freedoms and states’ rights. As long as I am governor, there will be no government vaccine mandates in Oklahoma. My administration will continue to defend Oklahoma values and fight back against the Biden administration’s federal overreach.”

    South Carolina (Governor): “The American Dream has turned into a nightmare under President Biden and the radical Democrats. They have declared war against capitalism, thumbed their noses at the Constitution, and empowered our enemies abroad. Rest assured, we will fight them to the gates of hell to protect the liberty and livelihood of every South Carolinian.”

    South Dakota (Governor): “My legal team is standing by ready to file our lawsuit the minute @Joebiden files his unconstitutional rule. This gross example of federal intrusion will not stand.”

    Tennessee (Governor): https://twitter.com/FOXNashville/sta...48671490502660
     

    Texas (Governor): “Biden’s vaccine mandate is an assault on private businesses. I issued an Executive Order protecting Texans’ right to choose whether they get the COVID vaccine & added it to the special session agenda. Texas is already working to halt this power grab.”

    Utah (Attorney General): https://twitter.com/abc4utah/status/1436146611965542403
     

    West Virginia (Attorney General): https://twitter.com/MorriseyWV/statu...44571570872322
     

    Wyoming (Governor): https://twitter.com/NorthPlattePost/...14309534355457
     


    Sources (if not given above):
    I say let's teach these bastards to be careful what they wish for. Let them have Wall Street and Hollywood, and all the other portions of this country that produce nothing of value. We'll keep the Constitution and let them have the rest, and see what good a bunch of balkanized self-important parasites does them.

    We have to figure out what they want so we don't give it to them. $#@! that. We do not. We have to figure out how to use any opportunity they give us to get what we need. If their celebrity makes it completely impossible for you to ignore the $#@!s, just take it on faith that we'll make them unhappy in the process.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 10-09-2021 at 11:13 AM.
    "Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out?"--Will Rogers

    "All I know is what I read in the newspapers, and that's an alibi for my ignorance."--Will Rogers

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    I know secession is popular to some libertarians, but I would point out it is also popular in the long run to globalists like Soros. They do not want any strong nations, just Balkanized regions, that they will rule as part of a single global empire.
    I prefer to be surrounded by like-minded individuals, and I'll take my chances with them. I believe I stand a helluva better chance of surviving when the people beside me in the trench believe the same things that I do than I do in a trench filled with snakes, and enemies coming at me from the outside too.

  18. #45
    Every secession that happens makes the next secession more likely.

    And with enough secessions...

    Anarchy (the good kind)
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!

  19. #46
    Can't help but think about the Quebec secession vote that almost won.

    Probably was rigged.

    Everything is a rig job. Don't count on any secessions passing the legal way.

    This country already showed how much it's willing to lose to maintain conformity.
    "For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy ... Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed." - J.F.K.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    https://twitter.com/michaelmalice/st...73203556933633
    Dissection begins @ 11:00:

    Dissecting National Review's Article Against National Divorce
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb4iiPsC304


    The article:

    National Divorce Is a Poisonously Stupid Idea
    https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/...y-stupid-idea/
    Rich Lowry (08 October 2021)

    https://twitter.com/michaelmalice/st...33615057440776
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 10-12-2021 at 02:59 AM.

  21. #48
    Tom Woods Show Ep. 1989 Secession: The Constitutional, Historical, and Moral Case
    I make the constitutional, historical, and moral case for national divorce.
    https://odysee.com/@TomWoodsTV:e/ep....stitutional,:3



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  23. #49

  24. #50
    Three Reasons to Start Taking Secession Seriously
    https://mises.org/wire/three-reasons...sion-seriously
    Ryan McMaken (28 October 2021)

    Last month, the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia released a new study which showed that, at least among those polled, “roughly 4 in 10 (41%) of Biden and half (52%) of Trump voters at least somewhat agree that it’s time to split the country, favoring blue/red states seceding from the union.”

    Moreover, majorities in both groups agreed there are “many radical, immoral people trying to ruin things” and that “it is the duty of every true citizen to help eliminate the evil that poisons our country from within.”

    One might conclude that people who think that things are generally going well in a country aren’t so concerned with “the evil within” that they think it’s time to “split the country.”

    It seems that President Biden has been unable to “unite” the country after all, in spite of his promises that it’s “time to heal in America” and that he will "be a president who seeks not to divide, but to unify." Rather, it appears the country embraces a hard divide over a variety of issues with vaccine mandates and parental rights in public education being only the most current ones.

    At this point, there’s no reason to believe these divides are simply going to go away. Secession is likely to become even more mainstream as has been occurring in recent years, and as the old "liberal consensus" of the mid-twentieth century recedes ever more into the distant past. Moreover, opponents of secession are clear that they’re not willing to tolerate a separation that would allow Americans in neighboring jurisdictions to embrace other models of society or governance. But in the real world, major political changes can come suddenly and in unexpected ways. In 1987, most Soviet still assumed the USSR would continue to exist for many more decades—if not centuries. Because of this, now is the time to begin asking the difficult questions about secession and how military and financial questions can be addressed.

    Considering all this, we see three main reasons why it is increasingly unwise to ignore secession as a serious possibility.

    Secession Went Mainstream

    The first reason we must now take secession seriously is that it’s no longer a topic of discussion among the most radical.

    In 2014, for example, a quarter of those polled said they thought their state should secede. By 2018, 39 percent were saying they think a state should “have the final say” as to whether or not that state remains part of the United States. In 2020, more than a third of those polled said states have a legal right to secede.

    Mainstream conservatives increasingly suggest the possibility, from Rush Limbaugh to Dennis Prager. Indeed, just last week, Prager admitted that secession offers a chance to live in a country that better reflects one’s own values. Should secession happen, Prager said, “ I would live in a state governed by Judeo-Christian values versus one governed by left-wing values.” Even elderly conservatives are started to grasp the idea: separation brings choice, and choice is better than ossified notions of “patriotism.”

    Indeed, it appears it’s no coincidence that older conservative operatives like Prager have been among those who are late to warm to the idea of secession. According to Zogby’s 2020 poll on secession, favorable attitudes toward secession decline as the polled group gets older. In the 18-29 year-old group, a majority (52 percent) think states have a legal right to secede. In the over-65 group the number is only 23 percent. In other words, the dogma of national unity is a dogma of older generations. Not only is secession increasingly mainstream, it may be the wave of the future as well.

    Meanwhile, members of Congress—including Iowa's Steven Holt and Florida's Marjorie Taylor Greene—now openly speak well of secession. They wouldn't say this unless they thought their constituents agree with them.

    Moreover, we might measure the growth of the secessionist position by the number of pundits who now feel the need to condemn it. Once upon a time, secession was regarded as so "out there" that it scarcely deserved any attention at all. No longer. Nowadays, conservative beltway pundits feel the need to go on rants about it on Fox News.

    The Left’s Unionists Want to Run Your Life

    A second reason to take secession seriously is the fact that the Left doesn’t seem to be learning anything from the rise of separatism. Just as many Americans appear to be embracing a posture in opposition to rule from the center, the Left is doubling down on the idea that more local autonomy is not to be tolerated.

    A clear example of this is the John Lewis Voting Rights Advancement Act introduced in the US Senate. The legislation, if passed, would give Washington vast new powers in regulating and controlling how states conduct their own elections. Originally, of course, state governments had almost total control in how elections were governed and conducted within each state. This makes sense in a country that began as a collection of sovereign republics. Just as EU member states conduct their elections in a way that’s locally controlled, the same was once true for the US. Over time—as in most areas—the federal government asserted more control. But with the Voting Rights Advancement Act, local control over elections would be virtually abolished with most any changes subject to a federal imprimatur.

    Naturally, opposition to surrendering state elections to federal control is denounced as motivated by racism and other nefarious goals. And this is reflective of the Left’s general opposition to secession and decentralization in general. The idea is “we can’t let those people run their own affairs because they’re sure to use local prerogatives for evil.”

    For example, when condemning secession in New York magazine, Democratic strategist Ed Kilgore made it clear he has no intention of letting people do much of anything without federal “oversight.” He writes:

    So might we drift apart more or less peacefully this time around? Possibly, but count me out when it comes to agreeing to a National Divorce. …[H]ow could I happily accept the accelerated subjugation of women and people of color in a new, adjacent Red America, any more than abolitionists could accept the continuation and expansion of the slavery they hated? Would it really be safe to live near a carbon-mad country in which the denial of climate change was an article of faith? And could I ever trust that a “neighbor” whose leadership and citizens believed their policies reflected the unchanging ancient will of the Almighty would leave our fences intact?

    Kilgore can barely contain his contempt. He might as well be saying "If those Red State troglodytes are allowed freedom, they’ll surely embrace a racist and misogynistic dystopia that fills the air with poisonous fumes. These are religious zealots, after all!"

    Anyone who doesn’t want to live out his or her life as subject to the whims of men like Kilgore should take his few moments of candor as an ominous warning. These people will never “happily accept” self-governance outside Washington’s purview because they quite literally equate it with slavery and the hatred of women.

    In other words, the more the Left condemns secession in detail—as they must now do because dismissive scoffing no longer works—they only provide additional reasons for why secession is likely the only real solution to the national divide.

    Now Is Time to Ask the Difficult Questions

    Finally, the mainstreaming of secession means now is the appropriate time to start asking the difficult questions about how separation would actually take place.

    For example, the issue of nuclear weapons cannot be ignored—although the case of post-Soviet Ukraine shows it’s not as intractable a problem as many suspect. Moreover, the question of the national debt ought to be approached. It will likely also be necessary to admit that under all realistic scenarios, a partial default is the likely outcome either with or without secession. And finally, there is the problem of “ethnic” enclaves. Historically, this always comes with secession, as with the ethnic Russians in the secessionist Baltics or the pro-Spaniard populations left behind throughout Latin America in the nineteenth century. Moreover, how "complete" would this separation be? It is entirely conceivable that a United States with two or more self-governing pieces could nevertheless remain within under a single head of state or within a single military alliance.

    In real life, big political changes have a habit of occurring regardless of what the official planners want, and what the official plans say. That is, events have a way of overwhelming what the elites think is the proper way of doing things. But fostering serious discussion now could help avert at least some unpleasant surprises in the longer term. On the other hand, living in denial about secession won't improve things. And, of course, the matter of secession is not "if" but "when." All polities come to an end at some point either through disintegration or revolution. In many cases, the world improves when old states like the Roman Empire collapse. The fanciful America-will-last-forever position is something that should seem plausible only to small children or the hopelessly na´ve.



    "Three Reasons to Start Taking Secession Seriously" by Ryan McMaken is licensed under CC BY-ND-NC 4.0

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Tom Woods Show Ep. 1989 Secession: The Constitutional, Historical, and Moral Case
    I make the constitutional, historical, and moral case for national divorce.
    https://odysee.com/@TomWoodsTV:e/ep....stitutional,:3
    And this goes here, too:

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Tom Woods - Secession: Yes, It's Allowed (But We Should Do It Even if It Weren't)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRfBrV4iwjk

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    This meme would be much better if the first map of the United States didn't show Indiana as a blue state.
    "Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."

    Calvin Coolidge

  27. #53
    How about we kick California the $#@! out? Dont give it to Mexico, and DONT let California leave voluntarily, I mean KICKED THE $#@! OUT of the USA because they are the ones promoting the $#@! that ruins every other state that has gone sideways.

    PS California, dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out because we know in your twisted minds you would all get off on that some how...
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  28. #54
    Newer polls have it closer to 50%. And the only "insane" part is the idea of only getting 2 independent countries out if it rather than 50.
    Last edited by DadaOrwell; 11-27-2021 at 08:26 PM.
    Want freedom? Move to NH: http://FreeStateProject.org
    Want NH independence? http://NHexit.us

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Globalist View Post
    This meme would be much better if the first map of the United States didn't show Indiana as a blue state.
    Currently the most red state in the nation.
    Do something Danke

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