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Thread: Trump pardons Blackwater Security Contractors convicted of killing civilians

  1. #1

    Trump pardons Blackwater Security Contractors convicted of killing civilians

    https://www.mail.com/news/politics/1...8-stage-set1-6

    But no pardon for Assange or Snowden.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  3. #2
    Definitely not because Erik Prince is SecEd's brother.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  4. #3
    Wow, the drain is getting swampier.

  5. #4
    Something something rule of law.
    "The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety."
    H. L. Mencken

    Quote Originally Posted by Contumacious View Post
    Yes, indeed , we will never be able to prove fraud.

  6. #5
    If obama did the very same thing this forum would be on fire.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    https://www.mail.com/news/politics/1...8-stage-set1-6

    But no pardon for Assange or Snowden.

    That's because he wants them to reveal all the dirt on the deep state on the record, in court. Then the mass arrests will begin. Or something.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by sparebulb View Post
    Wow, the drain is getting swampier.
    No kidding!

  9. #8
    Any of the resident Trumpers want to weigh in on this?



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  11. #9
    It’s my understanding that all 4 Blackwater guys have been in jail for awhile... do they get released immediately? Anybody know details

  12. #10
    They were under attack. When UK military police were in the same situation they didn't shoot, and all of them were killed. I would've shot too.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by misterx View Post
    They were under attack. When UK military police were in the same situation they didn't shoot, and all of them were killed. I would've shot too.
    I'm not familiar with the case, but apparently they did claim self-defense after being attacked. Courts are supposed to look at the evidence and come up with a verdict and punishment. Obviously this is an often flawed process, thus the need for pardons.

    I don't know that this is a case deserving of pardons though.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
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    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    I'm not familiar with the case, but apparently they did claim self-defense after being attacked. Courts are supposed to look at the evidence and come up with a verdict and punishment. Obviously this is an often flawed process, thus the need for pardons.

    I don't know that this is a case deserving of pardons though.
    I don't know either. I'm just pointing out it's not as simple as they killed innocent civilians, and they may well have been railroaded/held to an absurd standard for rules of engagement.

  15. #13
    Here we are in 2020 taking the side of the war criminals because orange man good.
    The enemy of my enemy may be worse than my enemy.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    I'm not familiar with the case, but apparently they did claim self-defense after being attacked. Courts are supposed to look at the evidence and come up with a verdict and punishment. Obviously this is an often flawed process, thus the need for pardons.

    I don't know that this is a case deserving of pardons though.
    Quote Originally Posted by misterx View Post
    I don't know either. I'm just pointing out it's not as simple as they killed innocent civilians, and they may well have been railroaded/held to an absurd standard for rules of engagement.
    Or....they may have been hotheaded "cowboy" types that recklessly endangered innocent lives.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisour...sacre#Findings
    An Interior Ministry spokesman said Iraqi authorities had completed their investigation into the shooting and concluded that Blackwater guards were responsible for the deaths. U.S. military reports appear to corroborate the Iraqi government's contention that Blackwater was at fault in the incident.[12]

    On October 2, 2007, the Democratic staff of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee released a report stating that Blackwater USA guards had used deadly force weekly in Iraq and had inflicted "significant casualties and property damage". The report found that the guards fired their weapons 195 times from the beginning of 2005 through the second week of September 2005. The report further said that Blackwater had reported that its forces fired first in over 80 percent of the cases.[54]

    On October 4, 2007, U.S. military reports indicated Blackwater's guards had opened fire without provocation and used excessive force. "It was obviously excessive", a U.S. military official speaking on condition of anonymity told the Washington Post. "The civilians that were fired upon, they didn't have any weapons to fire back at them. And none of the I.P. (Iraqi police) or any of the local security forces fired back at them", the official continued. The Blackwater guards appeared to have fired grenade launchers in addition to machine guns, according to the report.[12]

    On October 13, 2007, the FBI reported that it had concluded that at least 14 of the 17 Iraqis who died in the square had been killed without cause.[28] The three justifiable killings were those of the two passengers in the white Kia sedan and an unidentified Iraqi nearby.[28] A Blackwater spokeswoman responded to the findings by saying Blackwater "supports the stringent accountability of the industry. If it is determined that one person was complicit in the wrongdoing, we would support accountability in that. The key people in this have not spoken with investigators."[55][56][57]
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Or....they may have been hotheaded "cowboy" types that recklessly endangered innocent lives.
    They may have, but I'm not going to take that as a fact because of a wikipedia entry. You're talking about a war zone. There are often legitimate reasons to fire weapons in a war zone, and sometimes if you don't fire first you won't get the chance to fire at all. I'm guessing you've never been in the military, or spent any time in a war zone.
    Last edited by misterx; 12-23-2020 at 04:23 PM.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by misterx View Post
    They were under attack. When UK military police were in the same situation they didn't shoot, and all of them were killed. I would've shot too.
    I wouldn't have taken a job that put me in that position.



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  20. #17
    This is one of those murky situations that results from a terribly flawed premise. They had no good reason to be in Iraq, but the same can also be said of the American military's presence. However, the fact is they were there and operating under a specific set of circumstances. Given the state of Iraq, it is not without possibility that the individuals were actually acting in self-defense.

    Just as I lack the information (or rather omniscience) required to know exactly what happened, it is difficult to place any degree of importance on the topic. Perhaps the pardoned individuals will make good with their newfound freedom and benefit their communities. Regardless, all of this highlights why the USA should not have a presence in other countries.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by misterx View Post
    They may have, but I'm not going to take that as a fact because of a wikipedia entry. You're talking about a war zone. There are often legitimate reasons to fire weapons in a war zone, and sometimes if you don't fire first you won't get the chance to fire at all. I'm guessing you've never been in the military, or spent any time in a war zone.
    The wikipedia entry was sourced. http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/...ort/index.html And maybe you don't trust CNN (I don't either), but CNN's claim is that Blackwater's own reports is that in 80 percent of the armed engagements in Iraq they fired first. So if CNN lied about that, Blackwater could have successfully sued them for libel. That didn't happen. So I accept that report as fact.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  22. #19
    There is no need to over think this.

    There is no patriotic duty to support our mercenaries.

  23. #20
    I certainly don’t know the specifics. Looked from a distance that they overreacted & innocent lives were taken.

    They did serve real time in US jail

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    I wouldn't have taken a job that put me in that position.
    So you're a coward. Fair enough, but I don't think that's anything to brag about.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    The wikipedia entry was sourced. http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/...ort/index.html And maybe you don't trust CNN (I don't either), but CNN's claim is that Blackwater's own reports is that in 80 percent of the armed engagements in Iraq they fired first. So if CNN lied about that, Blackwater could have successfully sued them for libel. That didn't happen. So I accept that report as fact.
    If a mob is violently approaching you in a war zone where such mobs have been known to surround and murder, and half of them are armed, you'd be a fool not to fire some warning shots.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    Any of the resident Trumpers want to weigh in on this?
    Blackwater Xe Academi mercenaries are massing at a secret location with sealed warrants as we speak and mustn't be interrupted.

    Arrests imminent!

    Quote Originally Posted by misterx View Post
    They may have, but I'm not going to take that as a fact because of a wikipedia entry. You're talking about a war zone. There are often legitimate reasons to fire weapons in a war zone, and sometimes if you don't fire first you won't get the chance to fire at all. I'm guessing you've never been in the military, or spent any time in a war zone.
    How about taking it as a fact because a jury convicted them?

    I dare say they had more information than we do.

    Quote Originally Posted by misterx View Post
    So you're a coward. Fair enough, but I don't think that's anything to brag about.
    Declining to volunteer to kill people he doesn't know for no reason in exchange for money isn't cowardice.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by misterx View Post
    If a mob is violently approaching you in a war zone where such mobs have been known to surround and murder, and half of them are armed, you'd be a fool not to fire some warning shots.
    Are there any circumstances under which you would convict military contractors who unloaded on civilians?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by misterx View Post
    So you're a coward. Fair enough, but I don't think that's anything to brag about.
    I don't agree that that makes me a coward. Soldiers of generations past who fought with a chivalry that would have them prefer to die than to kill innocent civilians indiscriminately were not cowards on account of that restraint and willingness to sacrifice themselves for causes they truly considered worth that. And I also didn't mean it as a brag.

    But the only way I can make sense of you saying this is that you must believe the Iraq War was a just and worthy cause for a mercenary to voluntarily sign up to kill people, including killing innocent civilians as one of the hazards of the job, in exchange for money, and in fact that you support this so strongly that you think those who wouldn't voluntarily do that are cowards.

    We're not talking about members of the military who had been wooed and lied to by recruiters right out of high school, didn't know what they were getting themselves into, and then found themselves stuck in an impossible position. If we were talking about kids like that, I would have more sympathy for them as another sort of victim of the crimes of people higher up than them right along with the other victims. But these guys aren't that.
    Last edited by Invisible Man; 12-24-2020 at 08:42 AM.

  30. #26
    I will not be satisfied until I see a pardon for both Assange and Snowden.
    "Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."

    Calvin Coolidge

  31. #27
    unfortunately Trump is not libertarian.

    that doesn't give the right for the democrats to destroy the integrity of the elections.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    I don't agree that that makes me a coward. Soldiers of generations past who fought with a chivalry that would have them prefer to die than to kill innocent civilians indiscriminately were not cowards on account of that restraint and willingness to sacrifice themselves for causes they truly considered worth that. And I also didn't mean it as a brag.

    But the only way I can make sense of you saying this is that you must believe the Iraq War was a just and worthy cause for a mercenary to voluntarily sign up to kill people, including killing innocent civilians as one of the hazards of the job, in exchange for money, and in fact that you support this so strongly that you think those who wouldn't voluntarily do that are cowards.

    We're not talking about members of the military who had been wooed and lied to by recruiters right out of high school, didn't know what they were getting themselves into, and then found themselves stuck in an impossible position. If we were talking about kids like that, I would have more sympathy for them as another sort of victim of the crimes of people higher up than them right along with the other victims. But these guys aren't that.
    They weren't soldiers, they were civilians themselves protecting other American civilians. You think they should be held to a higher standard then the military, I disagree. Civilians should be allowed to defend themselves whether it's here or on the other side of the world. It has nothing to do with whether or not you believe in the war.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Blackwater Xe Academi mercenaries are massing at a secret location with sealed warrants as we speak and mustn't be interrupted.

    Arrests imminent!



    How about taking it as a fact because a jury convicted them?

    I dare say they had more information than we do.



    Declining to volunteer to kill people he doesn't know for no reason in exchange for money isn't cowardice.
    If you believe juries are never wrong, and the laws they convict on never unjust, then no one should be pardoned ever.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Are there any circumstances under which you would convict military contractors who unloaded on civilians?
    Yes, if it's not self-defense. Civilian or military makes no difference. Liberals use the word civilian as if it means innocent victim. Civilians can be aggressors, murderers, and terrorists. The fact they were civilians is immaterial, both sides were civilians. We don't try self-defense cases in America by passing guilty verdicts automatically because the dead is a civilian.

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