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Thread: Logistically, how would secession work out?

  1. #1

    Logistically, how would secession work out?

    First, I support the break up of the US. There is no chance of unity, especially when one half thinks the other half are nazis and racists.

    But, if there is no orderly transition and a state, let's say Texas, says fukk it, we're out; wouldn't it be a huge disruption of the economy in Texas? Let's say there is no violence following secession. The US gov still isn't going to like it and might set up some sort of trade sanction and other countries that hate freedom might follow suit. Would Texas be able to survive the shock of losing producer and consumer goods coming from out of state or from other countries?

    During what we call the US civil war, people were living much closer to a hand to mouth, subsistence level of economic activity. Secession wouldn't be such a huge shock because people were much more self sufficient then. Now, it's not the case since everything is interconnected. How would that work out if we can't assume an orderly transition?



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  3. #2
    We don't have red vs blue states so much as city vs rural.

    Cities, blue.
    Rural, red. (and generally more self-reliant and freedom loving)

    But the cities typically have the largest population for a given area/region. Thus, tyranny of the majority, they can dictate to the rural people, who lead a very different lifestyle and tend to hold different opinions.

    Therefore, I think that rural areas need to wake up to this reality and start banding together. Something like: United Rural Areas of America.

    Let the city folk have their socialist hellholes. They can make up all the self-defeating rules they want within their city limits.

    Just leave the rest of us out of it.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by ResponsibleIdiot View Post
    First, I support the break up of the US. There is no chance of unity, especially when one half thinks the other half are nazis and racists.

    But, if there is no orderly transition and a state, let's say Texas, says fukk it, we're out; wouldn't it be a huge disruption of the economy in Texas? Let's say there is no violence following secession. The US gov still isn't going to like it and might set up some sort of trade sanction and other countries that hate freedom might follow suit. Would Texas be able to survive the shock of losing producer and consumer goods coming from out of state or from other countries?

    During what we call the US civil war, people were living much closer to a hand to mouth, subsistence level of economic activity. Secession wouldn't be such a huge shock because people were much more self sufficient then. Now, it's not the case since everything is interconnected. How would that work out if we can't assume an orderly transition?
    I envision it happening much in the same way it did when the USSR collapsed.

    Which is to say, the Empire dried up and blew away.

    The nation states that were left to fend on their own, mostly adopted some form of European socialism, some fell into brutal civil war, a few others adopted a more or less laisse faire approach and fared very well, going from Soviet poverty and tyranny to free market prosperity almost overnight.

    Some joined regional alliances, others did not.

    So, short answer, who knows?

    But if Texas did it right, they could prosper immediately with almost no shock to the system.

    Even in the aftermath of war, we know what brings prosperity: free markets, sound money, limited government to protect property and civil rights and a citizenry of like minded people.
    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 11-22-2020 at 02:41 PM.
    We must picture Hell as a state where everyone is perpetually concerned about his own dignity and advancement, where everyone has a grievance, and where everyone lives the deadly serious passions of envy, self-importance, and resentment. - C. S. Lewis

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by danda View Post
    Let the city folk have their socialist hellholes. They can make up all the self-defeating rules they want within their city limits.

    Just leave the rest of us out of it.
    Ah, but there is the rub: 2020 has, like no other time before, has demonstrated that, when the cities $#@! the bed, millions of city dwellers will flee to the country, to immediately start $#@!ing that area up.

    Just like national borders are required, there must be some form of checks against internal migrations that threaten to destroy these bastions of freedom.
    We must picture Hell as a state where everyone is perpetually concerned about his own dignity and advancement, where everyone has a grievance, and where everyone lives the deadly serious passions of envy, self-importance, and resentment. - C. S. Lewis

  6. #5
    Short answer? It wouldn't. Longer answer? You have more in common with rural Georgia even though the state went blue than you Austin Texas even though that state stayed red and Alex Jones lives there. Then you have the fact that many, if not most, of the people in the "red" suburbs are very much dependent on the cities for jobs, airports etc. If the state of Texas came up for a secession referendum tomorrow I guarantee it would fail with or without vote harvesting and Dominion voting machines. And....the GOP kept the Senate. Yeah, Mitch sucks. But he's good at not doing anything. Which means the Biden/Harris administration is limited in just how crazy they can go. Mandatory vaccines? Trump, the guy some folks here are trying so desperately to make win, set the stage for mandatory vaccines with "Operation Warp Speed" where he, Trump, said in the debates would be "deployed by the military." And it won't need to be "mandatory" anyway. You just won't be able to get on a plane, register for school, buy concert and sporting tickets, have a security clearance, join the military, without them. This will all be rolled out in phases. And "Joe Suburb" will go right along with it to "get back to normal."

    So let's say Jim Bob Rural and his buddies succeed and seceded. Then what? In Jim Bob going to build an international airport hub? Oh you say Jim Bob can just fly small private planes from small regional airports? Guess what? Jim Bob can do that right now without secession. And he can do it without those pesky naked body scanners. You say Jim Bob can homeschool? Yeah...everybody is homeschooling now. Jim Bob can have is own sporting events / concerts out in the open field away from those pesky city folk? Yeah...happening now anyway. Jim Bob doesn't need a security clearance on to join the military cause he's in the militia? Yeah...happening now anyway.

    Oh...but Jim Bob wants to stock up food and set fortifications just in case the cities collapse under the weight of socialism? Well...Jim Bob can do all that right now anyway and even trade with his "freedom cell" through crypto currency. In short....if you want to live separate from city folk....just live separate from city folk. Elect local sheriffs who are dedicated to not enforcing gun control. And hide your guns well anyway.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by ResponsibleIdiot View Post
    First, I support the break up of the US.... ?
    Curious were you supporter or opponent of recent GOPA funded MAGA movement led by Trump?

    If yes, won't this appear to be contradictory transition going overnight from "MAKE AMERICA GREAT" to "MAKE AMERICA BREAK"?

  8. #7
    ..
    Last edited by Invisible Man; 11-22-2020 at 04:22 PM. Reason: staying invisible

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Ah, but there is the rub: 2020 has, like no other time before, has demonstrated that, when the cities Just like national borders are required, there must be some form of checks against internal migrations that threaten to destroy these bastions of freedom.
    Here we differ. I consider freedom of movement to be a natural right and thus a human right. Any curtailing of that is against nature and must be weighed very carefully indeed.

    Anyway, practically speaking the very defintion of rural is that it is large and open and relatively unpopulated. If it becomes populated, it is no longer rural, and maybe it decides to join the league of cities, or whatever.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    In short....if you want to live separate from city folk....just live separate from city folk.
    Fair enough, and I suspect many on this forum are doing exactly that. The difficulty however is when the city folk want to impose their values on us. Things like: taxes, licensing, permits, mask requirements, limiting size of gatherings, and worst imo as a personal invasion would be forced vaccinations.

    At some point enough is enough and it's time to say NO. Since this thread is about envisioning secession scenarios, and there is strength in numbers, I am putting forth the idea of a kind of league of rural areas, whereby many band together and secede as a group, even though not necessarily physically adjoining.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post
    Curious were you supporter or opponent of recent GOPA funded MAGA movement led by Trump?

    If yes, won't this appear to be contradictory transition going overnight from "MAKE AMERICA GREAT" to "MAKE AMERICA BREAK"?
    I wasn't a supporter or opponent. I just cast a vote against the Marxist and Marxist leaning elements of politics. And even if I was a "supporter" of Trump, it doesn't necessarily mean I don't support a break-up. I would definitely support a socialist secession, where the socialists take a block of states and make it their own utopia. And if they were allowed a transition period where all the lefties had a year or two to move their ass over there, I would support that too. I would support making that process as easy as possible so every lefty on the fence would be less reluctant to move.

  13. #11

  14. #12
    It wouldn't work. States are not homogeneous. Short of Balkanization and ethnic or political cleansing, there is no practical way for secession in the US.

  15. #13
    Wishful thinking vision

    Violent clashes would be short and decisive ,,once it is on.
    after a bit of Chaos,,folks would organize and clean up,, like any other storm..
    I would not expect the "progressives" to be socially acceptable again for a generation.

    Reorganization would accompany rebuilding. And there are some Good Heads out here.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by danda View Post
    Fair enough, and I suspect many on this forum are doing exactly that. The difficulty however is when the city folk want to impose their values on us. Things like: taxes, licensing, permits, mask requirements, limiting size of gatherings, and worst imo as a personal invasion would be forced vaccinations.

    At some point enough is enough and it's time to say NO. Since this thread is about envisioning secession scenarios, and there is strength in numbers, I am putting forth the idea of a kind of league of rural areas, whereby many band together and secede as a group, even though not necessarily physically adjoining.
    Exactly right. You can seperate yourself to the extreme and they will still follow you and impose their dictates upon you.
    "The Patriarch"

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by danda View Post
    Fair enough, and I suspect many on this forum are doing exactly that. The difficulty however is when the city folk want to impose their values on us. Things like: taxes, licensing, permits, mask requirements, limiting size of gatherings, and worst imo as a personal invasion would be forced vaccinations.

    At some point enough is enough and it's time to say NO. Since this thread is about envisioning secession scenarios, and there is strength in numbers, I am putting forth the idea of a kind of league of rural areas, whereby many band together and secede as a group, even though not necessarily physically adjoining.
    Join a Freedom Cell or start one.

    https://lbry.tv/@VoxPopuli:b/Freedom...und-Railroad:a

    https://freedomcells.org/

    Becoming more self reliant and networking together with other self reliant people doesn't require indulging secessionist fantasy circle jerking. If it comes it comes. If it doesn't it doesn't. But your self reliant community still remains. Agorism is really the only way forward.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Join a Freedom Cell or start one.

    https://lbry.tv/@VoxPopuli:b/Freedom...und-Railroad:a

    https://freedomcells.org/

    Becoming more self reliant and networking together with other self reliant people doesn't require indulging secessionist fantasy circle jerking. If it comes it comes. If it doesn't it doesn't. But your self reliant community still remains. Agorism is really the only way forward.
    Your agorist freedom cell has just been declared an "illegal gathering" by Executive Order of the governor and SWAT is on the way to break it up.

    The Jews tried this in Imperial Russia with kibbutzes and local farm communities around the turn of the century.

    They were expelled, exiled or outright exterminated in pogroms.

    Didn't you ever see "Fiddler on the Roof"?

    Next suggestion please.
    We must picture Hell as a state where everyone is perpetually concerned about his own dignity and advancement, where everyone has a grievance, and where everyone lives the deadly serious passions of envy, self-importance, and resentment. - C. S. Lewis



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Your agorist freedom cell has just been declared an "illegal gathering" by Executive Order of the governor and SWAT is on the way to break it up.

    The Jews tried this in Imperial Russia with kibbutzes and local farm communities around the turn of the century.

    They were expelled, exiled or outright exterminated in pogroms.

    Didn't you ever see "Fiddler on the Roof"?

    Next suggestion please.
    The most likely way my "agorist freedom cell" will be declared illegal is if/when the feds pick up on your political militia talking about secession. I suppose I should be relieved that you'll go down first, giving me time to leave the country through the Freedom Cell underground railroad if necessary. I'll give you a ride on the freedom train if you want one, but just you as your political militia will most likely be dominated by informants and agent provocateurs for the feds than will be my freedom cell. Just look at what happened in the Governor Whitmer fiasco (false flag?). The "Watchmen Wolverines" were newly formed and full of people saying "The militias aren't doing enough" yada yada before going off on their plan that was not only crazy but just plain stupid. Secession groups are far more likely to attract those types than groups of people who are mostly focused on how to raise and preserve your own and how to exchange the excess you raise through barter or crypto currency, or cash while it's still accepted. A fed informant will be all into learning about military tactics and not so interested in learning how to can. A Freedom Cell could also teach firearm training without raising eyebrows as long as its done under the guise of hunting. That also includes how to move quietly through the woods. In a SHTF scenario just take off your hunter orange. In short, your groups are likely to accelerate the conflict the rest of us would rather avoid. But my groups would have at least 90% of the capability needed to survive such a conflict than your group. Maybe even more because in a real SHTF scenario most people die of disease and starvation.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 11-24-2020 at 07:12 AM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by danda View Post
    We don't have red vs blue states so much as city vs rural.

    Cities, blue.
    Rural, red.
    (and generally more self-reliant and freedom loving)

    But the cities typically have the largest population for a given area/region. Thus, tyranny of the majority, they can dictate to the rural people, who lead a very different lifestyle and tend to hold different opinions.

    Therefore, I think that rural areas need to wake up to this reality and start banding together. Something like: United Rural Areas of America.

    Let the city folk have their socialist hellholes. They can make up all the self-defeating rules they want within their city limits.

    Just leave the rest of us out of it.
    I'm a country-boy through-n-through, trying to tie the red-vs-blue narrative to country folk won't work.

    There are many like me who believe it's not our place to govern our neighbors, we insist on polite and ethical behavior but all the other trappings attached to modern political sects alienate us for one reason or another.

    Thank God that more people are waking up and noticing that the red/blue debate is a failed exercise. There are socially liberal country folk just as there are some who would be tyrannical zealots yet we're bound together by the belief that it's not our place to govern our neighbors and force our beliefs on them. City folk on the other hand must exert control over the country folk in order to eat and one way they're doing that today is by pushing the red/blue narrative in an attempt at camaraderie.

    When's the last time there was a senator in chambers with cow $#@! on his boots? These "red" politicians are cut from the same cloth as the "blue" ones and they all need to be rejected.

    Otherwise I'm with ya' in the push to isolate the cities, there's nothing there for me but trouble.

  22. #19
    My body has over 30 trillion freedom cells
    "It's probably the biggest hoax since Big Foot!" - Mitt Romney 1-16-2012 SC Debate

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    There are socially liberal country folk
    They sound confused, lol.

    I don't have any problem with soclalist types or anyone else believing whatever they want, so long as they don't try to impose their views on me or my family. The trouble with those people is that imposing their views on others is the absolute core tenet of the belief system, so they just can't help themselves.

    Red or blue -- yes of course it is an oversimplification. But it does make it easy to visually see at a glance that big cities tend to be democrat and rural areas more republican and thus by proxy, independent-minded, self-reliant, freedom loving.
    Last edited by danda; 11-24-2020 at 08:53 PM.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by tfurrh View Post
    My body has over 30 trillion freedom cells
    Mine too! Plus another 30+ trillion bacterial cells on standby/reserve!

    https://www.nature.com/news/scientis...-cells-1.19136

  25. #22
    Since the federal government is spending trillions anyways, would anyone here support Trump giving the Marxist socialists a block of states and paying them, let's say, $50,000 each to move there? With a few conditions of course, one being that they never move back into old US.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by danda View Post
    They sound confused, lol.

    I don't have any problem with soclalist types or anyone else believing whatever they want, so long as they don't try to impose their views on me or my family. The trouble with those people is that imposing their views on others is the absolute core tenet of the belief system, so they just can't help themselves.

    Red or blue -- yes of course it is an oversimplification. But it does make it easy to visually see at a glance that big cities tend to be democrat and rural areas more republican and thus by proxy, independent-minded, self-reliant, freedom loving.
    There are socially liberal country folk just as there are some who would be tyrannical zealots yet we're bound together by the belief that it's not our place to govern our neighbors and force our beliefs on them.
    There may be "socialists" out in the country, in fact there's a commune about an hour from me that is purely socialist but it's been my experience that they're even more reclusive and isolationist that regular country folk. They get along well with the Ozark country folk, unlike them the Holy-Roller Southern Baptist types would use government to enforce their beliefs and behaviors on the community, there are still Blue Laws in these hills and I can assure you it's not the long-hairs pushing for them.

    Societal differences or problems are magnified when folks are all clumped up, then weak people try to use government to bludgeon those whom they would control, this tends to not work so well when anonymity isn't an option.

    In short I don't believe that country liberals or country conservatives are cut from the same cloth as their city nemesis's. Unfortunately city folk are migrating and they're trying to bring their city ways with them.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by tfurrh View Post
    My body has over 30 trillion freedom cells
    Reported for biohazard terrorism.


    Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850)

    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law." - The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." - Government (p. 99)
    • "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
      - Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)
    • "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
      - Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)

    · tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito ·
    MOFA (Make Orwell Fiction Again)



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