View Poll Results: Is the Death Penalty Ever Justified?

Voters
7. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, sometime's it is

    5 71.43%
  • No, never

    2 28.57%
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 31 to 47 of 47

Thread: Death Penalty

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Rev3, you and I agree on a lot of things. Some, we may disagree. I truly do enjoy debate with you. However, you are seeking answers to questions that only you can ask and answer.

    I have found what works for me, which enables me to abide by principles of freedom (as much as I can muster), the NAP, and responsible fiscal conservatism. I am still able to enjoy life, and what the earth has to offer. Time is limited, either socially, due to old age, maybe an historic building that might get torn down. I aim to experience more that life has to offer, and share it with friends and loved ones whenever possible.
    Here's my philosophy of life PAF, as it relates to politics:

    --This ship is going down, hard, and fairly soon.

    --Those of us who know better have a moral responsibility to keep the flame alive.

    --In the very long run (i.e. well after we here are all dead of natural causes), the problem will be solved, I assure you.

    --It is important that, at that point in the future, the work of Mises et al will have survived.

    So, what is to be done (to quote a monster)?

    Acquire the right books, keep them safe, talk to the rare person here and there who is able to understand, and otherwise enjoy life.

    That's it. Simple. No running into machine gun fire. Just be a sensible person and a good libertarian.

    The only trouble is that this is a very low time preference operation, and some want instant gratification.



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Here's my philosophy of life PAF, as it relates to politics:

    --This ship is going down, hard, and fairly soon.

    --Those of us who know better have a moral responsibility to keep the flame alive.

    --In the very long run (i.e. well after we here are all dead of natural causes), the problem will be solved, I assure you.

    --It is important that, at that point in the future, the work of Mises et al will have survived.

    So, what is to be done (to quote a monster)?

    Acquire the right books, keep them safe, talk to the rare person here and there who is able to understand, and otherwise enjoy life.

    That's it. Simple. No running into machine gun fire. Just be a sensible person and a good libertarian.



    I've got all of my dvd's protected and in a real nice cabinet. RP, Woods, Mises, Block, and many, many more!
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer



  4. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post



    I've got all of my dvd's protected and in a real nice cabinet. RP, Woods, Mises, Block, and many, many more!
    Cheers

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    A life sentence?
    Yes, that's one way.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Would you elaborate on that?

    When I first saw your original ask of the thread, two thoughts immediately came to the forefront of my mind: in an ideal world (impossible, I know), there would be no need for a death penalty. That encompasses so much that I don't even want to go down that path because it ends in utopia where there is no crime committed, there's "infinite" resources, etc.

    The second thought was: since we live in this imperfect world and we know there will be crime, how has the death penalty mitigated heinous crimes? I think if we analyze that, we'd see it probably hasn't proactively mitigated much. Criminals are criminals, they'll do what they do because that's who they are or who they've become. I doubt many, if any, think before committing a heinous crime (murder, rape, etc.) "gee, I might get the death penalty for this."

    Moving straight to the next sub-point on that is what does keeping a mass murderer (probably the most appropriate example for this discussion) locked up for life do? What does it achieve? That criminal becomes a tax burden on the rest of society for several decades. Furthermore, it's not as if they're rotting away in dark rat infested dungeons anymore. So, I think it some instances where there's a mass murderer (all evidence proves he committed the crimes and he's admitted to it, let's put all those things upfront to get them out of the way), we might as well consider putting him to death.

    There's a religious aspect here via redemption, etc. but that's a little beyond my realm of thought and I'm still unsure how that would sit even in that context.
    Welcome to the R3VOLUTION!

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post

    Indeed

    Take a look at the output of the prisons and tell me that's rehabilitation.

    Man goes in petty thief, comes out gang member ready to kill for nothing.
    The progressive rejoinder to this would be that the focus on rehabilitation is, at best, totally cosmetic and shallow, and that the system needs to be reorganized to better help people change, through state action of social workers and therapists and things like that. I think the thing to do is just deconstruct the very progressive paradigm that surrounds so-called "rehabilitation." If the goal is to rehabilitate so violent and antisocial actions don't happen again, all sorts of criminals could be just let off scot free and be totally "rehabilitated." Let's bring back the discourse of punishment. Such a discourse would probably lead to more rehabilitation anyway, ironically.
    NeoReactionary. American High Tory.

    The counter-revolution will not be televised.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I don't remember seeing much talk about this over the years.

    We have a bit of a crime wave at the moment, so it seems apropos.

    Vote and comment.

    I vote yes, FYI, it's justified for certain crimes.
    Now more than ever I am against the death penality. Government at all levels is so completely deviously corrupt that you can not trust the facts in any case they present to judge whether someone should live or die. The same holds true for jurors which can be paid off as well and too easily fooled with propaganda.

  10. #38
    It should be clarified that the question of whether or not the death penalty is ever justified is separate from the question of who, if anyone, ought to administer it if it is justified.

    I believe that it is often justified, but also that there is no one on this earth who is qualified to administer it. And the least qualified entity of all is the state. If you must support the death penalty, at least recognize that it's far too grave of a matter to let the corrupt bunglers who occupy positions of power in the government to be involved in.

  11. #39
    Yes, under "justified" overwhelming evidence.

    Then, death by hanging on courthouse grounds immediately following with the jury present as witnesses. One last meal and done within two hours of conviction.



    Old School.
    “Give a man a plane ticket, he flies for a short period of his life. Throw a man out of a plane, he flies for the rest of his life.”

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Okie RP fan View Post
    When I first saw your original ask of the thread, two thoughts immediately came to the forefront of my mind: in an ideal world (impossible, I know), there would be no need for a death penalty. That encompasses so much that I don't even want to go down that path because it ends in utopia where there is no crime committed, there's "infinite" resources, etc.

    The second thought was: since we live in this imperfect world and we know there will be crime, how has the death penalty mitigated heinous crimes? I think if we analyze that, we'd see it probably hasn't proactively mitigated much. Criminals are criminals, they'll do what they do because that's who they are or who they've become. I doubt many, if any, think before committing a heinous crime (murder, rape, etc.) "gee, I might get the death penalty for this."

    Moving straight to the next sub-point on that is what does keeping a mass murderer (probably the most appropriate example for this discussion) locked up for life do? What does it achieve? That criminal becomes a tax burden on the rest of society for several decades. Furthermore, it's not as if they're rotting away in dark rat infested dungeons anymore. So, I think it some instances where there's a mass murderer (all evidence proves he committed the crimes and he's admitted to it, let's put all those things upfront to get them out of the way), we might as well consider putting him to death.

    There's a religious aspect here via redemption, etc. but that's a little beyond my realm of thought and I'm still unsure how that would sit even in that context.
    You've described my own thought process, more or less.

    It may well be that the death penalty doesn't provide much additional deterrence relative a long prison sentence for the sort of degenerate who would commit a capital offense in the first place, but it does have one substantial advantage. The individual criminal in question is no longer able to commit crimes and it costs the taxpayer much less than the alternative, which is to say that it does prevent crime, insofar as needlessly high taxation is itself a crime against the taxpayer.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaleoLibertarian View Post
    The progressive rejoinder to this would be that the focus on rehabilitation is, at best, totally cosmetic and shallow, and that the system needs to be reorganized to better help people change, through state action of social workers and therapists and things like that. I think the thing to do is just deconstruct the very progressive paradigm that surrounds so-called "rehabilitation." If the goal is to rehabilitate so violent and antisocial actions don't happen again, all sorts of criminals could be just let off scot free and be totally "rehabilitated." Let's bring back the discourse of punishment. Such a discourse would probably lead to more rehabilitation anyway, ironically.
    People seem to forget that punishment is itself potentially rehabilitative (not the death penalty, obviously, but lesser punishments).

    Spare the rod, you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    Now more than ever I am against the death penality. Government at all levels is so completely deviously corrupt that you can not trust the facts in any case they present to judge whether someone should live or die. The same holds true for jurors which can be paid off as well and too easily fooled with propaganda.
    Fair point, but I didn't mean for the question to be whether this particular government should execute people.

    Suppose we had what you would consider a reasonably competent and fair government; what then?



  13. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Fair point, but I didn't mean for the question to be whether this particular government should execute people.

    Suppose we had what you would consider a reasonably competent and fair government; what then?
    That is impossible due to the nature of man.

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    That is impossible due to the nature of man.
    Do you trust the government, any government, to impose any punishment at all?

    If not, then what is the alternative?

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    You've described my own thought process, more or less.

    It may well be that the death penalty doesn't provide much additional deterrence relative a long prison sentence for the sort of degenerate who would commit a capital offense in the first place, but it does have one substantial advantage. The individual criminal in question is no longer able to commit crimes and it costs the taxpayer much less than the alternative, which is to say that it does prevent crime, insofar as needlessly high taxation is itself a crime against the taxpayer.
    Yea, it's definitely a very interesting subject with all kinds of twists and turns. It's not as cut and dry as many make it out to be. I think there's some finesse to it all that must be debated.
    Welcome to the R3VOLUTION!

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Okie RP fan View Post
    Yea, it's definitely a very interesting subject with all kinds of twists and turns. It's not as cut and dry as many make it out to be. I think there's some finesse to it all that must be debated.
    As for non-capital cases, there's not a very good alternative to prison, but prison itself could be changed dramatically.

    The old work-farm concept would be a huge improvement.

    Men who work 16 hours per day chopping down trees, plowing a field, etc, don't have the time or energy to run a gang.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    As for non-capital cases, there's not a very good alternative to prison, but prison itself could be changed dramatically.

    The old work-farm concept would be a huge improvement.

    Men who work 16 hours per day chopping down trees, plowing a field, etc, don't have the time or energy to run a gang.
    Plus, they have an opportunity to learn some skills that can be applied outside once they're out.
    I mean, prison's for rehabilitation prior to returning to society, right? Make them work and learn something that can be of use to them and society once they're out.
    Welcome to the R3VOLUTION!

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    Yes, under "justified" overwhelming evidence.

    Then, death by hanging on courthouse grounds immediately following with the jury present as witnesses. One last meal and done within two hours of conviction.



    Old School.
    Better yet, have the jury do the execution; make 'em think twice before voting "guilty".
    Amash>Trump

    ΟΥ ΓΑΡ ЄCΤΙΝ ЄξΟΥCΙΑ ЄΙ ΜΗ ΥΠΟ ΘЄΟΥ

    "Patriotism should come from loving thy neighbor, not from worshiping graven images" - Ironman77

    "ideas have the potential of being more powerful than any army....The concept of personal sovereignty was pulled screaming from the ether into this reality by the force of men believing in a self evident truth, that men are meant to be free." - The Northbreather

    "Trump is the security blanket of aggrieved white men aged 18-60." - Pinoy

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Okie RP fan View Post
    Plus, they have an opportunity to learn some skills that can be applied outside once they're out.
    I mean, prison's for rehabilitation prior to returning to society, right? Make them work and learn something that can be of use to them and society once they're out.
    Agreed

    And it seems fairly obvious, right?

    I'm really not sure why there isn't more support for some (at the risk of sounding like a politician) "common sense" reforms.

    I don't think anyone views the current system as a success (except the prison gangs, I suppose).

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12


Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-11-2018, 10:11 AM
  2. The Death Penalty
    By ShaneEnochs in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-18-2012, 11:10 AM
  3. Should there be a death penalty?
    By guitarlifter in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 126
    Last Post: 01-04-2011, 02:53 PM
  4. Death Penalty
    By LibertiORDeth in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 12-09-2007, 12:21 AM
  5. death penalty
    By JosephTheLibertarian in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 09-18-2007, 07:03 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •