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Thread: Definitive Proof that Wind and Solar are Cheaper than Oil or Coal

  1. #1

    Definitive Proof that Wind and Solar are Cheaper than Oil or Coal




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  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    C'mon Man!

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by DiverseSegregation View Post
    C'mon Man!
    That's a straw man.

  6. #5
    Yet we've invested so much money into these green energy companies and they end up going bankrupt.
    Last edited by Anti Globalist; 10-16-2020 at 12:16 PM.
    "Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."

    Calvin Coolidge

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by DiverseSegregation View Post
    Definitive Proof that Wind and Solar are Cheaper than Oil or Coal
    Biden's correct - subject to caveats. It's safe to say that it's less expensive to build green power generation facilities and supply green power than it is to do so with oil, gas or coal power generation for roughly two thirds of global power consumers (even without subsidies). It's primarily wind power generation that's brought that about; though solar is also less expensive (albeit, two to three times as expensive as wind). So what are the drawbacks:
    - Proximity of consumers to the power generation source; and the requisite infrastructure for transmission. It's the age old problem of metropolitan areas expecting rural areas to supply their every whim and wish.
    - There just isn't enough green power generation available; and won't be. Not In My Back Yard - For example, people in coastal communities object to windmills obscuring their ocean vistas; and object to the low-frequency hum that accompanies them, and there's the safety issues on top of that (windmills are dangerous).

    The benchmark timeframe for all these dreams is between now and 2050. Keep in mind that global energy consumption is expected to rise 50% during this period of time. So the question is not, "Which form of energy is less expensive?" - it's, "Which form of energy will be available?"

    See Net-Zero Carbon Dioxide Emissions By 2050 Requires A New Nuclear Power Plant Every Day
    ... BTW: that translates to:
    I’ve found that some people don’t like the use of a nuclear power plant as a measuring stick. So we can substitute wind energy as a measuring stick. Net-zero carbon dioxide by 2050 would require the deployment of ~1500 wind turbines (2.5 MW) over ~300 square miles, every day starting tomorrow and continuing to 2050.
    === Edited (just for fun) ===
    - From today (16OCT2020) to 01JAN2050 is 10,669 days.
    - 300 sq mi of windmills per day would be 3,200,700 sq mi ... to meet worldwide energy demand.
    - Texas covers an area of about 268,600 sq mi
    - So we're looking at covering a land mass about 12 times the size of Texas with windmills between now and 01JAN2050 in order to meet world-wide energy demand
    Last edited by Voluntarist; 10-16-2020 at 12:24 PM.
    It happened sometime after they Made America Great Again. You see, I grew a bit weary from all the winning.

    Remember the number one rule of libertarianism: Bad things don't just happen; bad things require dark and insidious forces to make them happen.

  8. #7
    Now, I'm not going to vouch for Biden's commentary, but I believe wind and solar energy can be cheaper. I'll not continue here with the TL;DR post that this subject requires, but I believe we need to stop with this "grid" BS. Distributed energy generation and storage is king. Extracting fuel from the ground, transporting it to a power station, burning it, and sending it over thousands of miles of wiring is a ruthlessly inefficient way of doing things. For some places, of course, wind and solar aren't ideal or consistent, but there may be other virtually inexhaustible sources, such as hydroelectric. There are many options for energy storage, especially when size/weight isn't a concern. Now, for some applications, none of this may be feasible, such as for factories in certain locations, and for those instances, maybe small nuclear reactors, such as those which are thorium-based, should be a subject of research.

    Anecdotally, I'll share that I just purchased 4kW worth of solar panels for $540. These are slightly used, as in for a year or two. New and decent panels can be purchased for around twice that if you source wisely. I plan to purchase nickel-iron batteries, which, although performing modestly when compared to modern battery technology, often last several decades, being renewed by electrolyte replacement every decade or two. The total cost of the off-grid system will be around $6,000, which, after replacing the grid power and the associated bills, will pay for itself in ~3.5 years, and last for possibly 30 years or more. How's that for savings?

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Badnon Wissenshaftler View Post
    Now, I'm not going to vouch for Biden's commentary, but I believe wind and solar energy can be cheaper. I'll not continue here with the TL;DR post that this subject requires, but I believe we need to stop with this "grid" BS. Distributed energy generation and storage is king. Extracting fuel from the ground, transporting it to a power station, burning it, and sending it over thousands of miles of wiring is a ruthlessly inefficient way of doing things. For some places, of course, wind and solar aren't ideal or consistent, but there may be other virtually inexhaustible sources, such as hydroelectric. There are many options for energy storage, especially when size/weight isn't a concern. Now, for some applications, none of this may be feasible, such as for factories in certain locations, and for those instances, maybe small nuclear reactors, such as those which are thorium-based, should be a subject of research.

    Anecdotally, I'll share that I just purchased 4kW worth of solar panels for $540. These are slightly used, as in for a year or two. New and decent panels can be purchased for around twice that if you source wisely. I plan to purchase nickel-iron batteries, which, although performing modestly when compared to modern battery technology, often last several decades, being renewed by electrolyte replacement every decade or two. The total cost of the off-grid system will be around $6,000, which, after replacing the grid power and the associated bills, will pay for itself in ~3.5 years, and last for possibly 30 years or more. How's that for savings?
    How much electricity are you planning to get from your investment? How large of battery system did you purchase? I know nothing about solar and would love to get my electricity off the grid. However, I have seen a documentary of Thomas Massie off the grid, and he seemed to indicate that if you have the grid available, you won't get solar cheaper.
    Last edited by DiverseSegregation; 10-16-2020 at 01:59 PM.



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  11. #9
    If you want higher taxes on electricity like it is in Germany i guess you can call it cheaper. Wind and Solar would destroy America if not Europe.
    You think China or India will go to these alternatives? nope.

  12. #10
    I can guarantee you that I would not come close to running my home on a $6000 system.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by DiverseSegregation View Post
    I can guarantee you that I would not come close to running my home on a $6000 system.
    The problem with Solar and Wind they cant storage that much wats compared to Nuclear or Coal.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by AngryCanadian View Post
    The problem with Solar and Wind they cant storage that much wats compared to Nuclear or Coal.
    Look at the Massie used Tesla battery. $15000 for a used battery. That did not include the computer or anything else. He drove 900 miles to go get it and spent a week modifying it. But forget that. Suppose all in installed his used battery cost him 20k and will last him 10 years that is 2k per year or $167 per month just for his used battery. Did you see the inverters and all that other equipment?

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by AngryCanadian View Post
    You think China or India will go to these alternatives? nope.
    They are actually.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by AngryCanadian View Post
    The problem with Solar and Wind they cant storage that much wats compared to Nuclear or Coal.
    Wind and solar do not store energy.. They Harvest energy...

    Batteries Store energy.

    Stored energy in other solid forms,,need to be turned into energy,, by some mechanical device..

    Batteries do not.

    the difference between Potential Energy and Actual Usable energy. and how many steps in between.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  17. #15
    One of the many mistakes of the past..

    https://detroit-electric-group.com/e...-electric.html

    https://www.vmt.org/collections/road...gham-model-42/

    was going with Gas rather than developing Electric..

    Convenience over Wisdom.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Wind and solar do not store energy.. They Harvest energy...

    Batteries Store energy.

    Stored energy in other solid forms,,need to be turned into energy,, by some mechanical device..

    Batteries do not.

    the difference between Potential Energy and Actual Usable energy. and how many steps in between.
    Pretty much yeah i agree i forget to post that, either way buying Batteries is more expensive then panels.



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  20. #17
    Solar is now ‘cheapest electricity in history’, confirms IEA

    The world’s best solar power schemes now offer the “cheapest…electricity in history” with the technology cheaper than coal and gas in most major countries. That is according to the International Energy Agency’s World Energy Outlook 2020.
    https://www.carbonbrief.org/solar-is...onfirms-iea?ut

    Even a filthy corrupt lying dirtbag like Biden can be right about some things.

    And if the US had any leadership at all in the last 40 years, the US would be leading the solar energy industry.

    instead, thanks to lowlife scum, China took the lead. And now they control the industry. They are the ones that dropped the prices.

    Scientific American: Why China Is Dominating the Solar Industry
    Between 2008 and 2013, China's solar-electric panel industry dropped world prices by 80 percent
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...olar-industry/
    Rand lied about Crimea and Iran
    " US Must Take Strong Action Against Putin's Aggression" -Rand
    的知 not advocating everyone go out and run around with no clothes on and smoke pot, I知 not a libertarian. I知 a libertarian Republican. I知 a constitutional conservative-Rand Paul
    WARNING: mods/admins are editing sigs without notice

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Peace Piper View Post
    Solar is now ‘cheapest electricity in history’, confirms IEA

    The world’s best solar power schemes now offer the “cheapest…electricity in history” with the technology cheaper than coal and gas in most major countries. That is according to the International Energy Agency’s World Energy Outlook 2020.
    https://www.carbonbrief.org/solar-is...onfirms-iea?ut

    Even a filthy corrupt lying dirtbag like Biden can be right about some things.

    And if the US had any leadership at all in the last 40 years, the US would be leading the solar energy industry.

    instead, thanks to lowlife scum, China took the lead. And now they control the industry. They are the ones that dropped the prices.

    Scientific American: Why China Is Dominating the Solar Industry
    Between 2008 and 2013, China's solar-electric panel industry dropped world prices by 80 percent
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...olar-industry/
    Not real cheap though. Solar electricity wont generate as much as coal or oil as for the past 20 years ago. Unless you prefer rolling blackouts during winter or summers? from your article..


    For the first time, the IEA includes detailed modeling of a 1.5C pathway that reaches global net-zero CO2 emissions by 2050. It says individual behaviour change, such as working from home “three days a week”, would play an “essential” role in reaching this new “net-zero emissions by 2050 case” (NZE2050).
    Promoting climate lockdown.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by AngryCanadian View Post
    Pretty much yeah i agree i forget to post that, either way buying Batteries is more expensive then panels.
    Batteries cost much more than the Electric Motor.

    And they have been Vastly improving. both in Storage and weight..

    I am encouraged by the Solid State Batteries being developed,, and the Price will eventually come down..

    Hemp Graphine is a Game Changer.
    https://www.graphene-info.com/hemp-f...e-nanomaterial

    https://wayofleaf.com/blog/hemp-vs-lithium-batteries
    Last edited by pcosmar; 10-16-2020 at 03:12 PM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by DiverseSegregation View Post
    How much electricity are you planning to get from your investment? How large of battery system did you purchase? I know nothing about solar and would love to get my electricity off the grid. However, I have seen a documentary of Thomas Massie off the grid, and he seemed to indicate that if you have the grid available, you won't get solar cheaper.
    Tesla won't sell you a "powerwall" if you're off-grid? WTF is that?

    Anyway, Thomas Massie is a little braver than I would be here, as I figure I might screw something up reconfiguring a Tesla car battery and turn my house into an off-grid bonfire. BUT, if you got it to work, the 60 -90 kWh battery of a Model S (depending on year) would likely be all the electrical storage you'd need, though it might only last, as he said, for 10 years.

    On an average, sunny day, you will get 12 hours x 4000 watts = 48 kWh from the panels I bought. That should be enough electricity for my house on all but the most demanding days. Of course, there are inefficiencies with conversions and storage, so keep that in mind. Also keep in mind, in summer, when there is the most demand here in Pheonix, there is also more sunlight, but to take full advantage of that, you'd have to have a tracking system so the panels will follow the Sun. Of course, in winter's shortest days, there are only ~10 hours of sunlight, and this represents a challenge if things get too cold, which they generally don't here. We can supplement the heating with the fireplace, however.

    For batteries, I plan to purchase NiFe batteries directly from China. Yes, I hate to do that, but they're the only ones who actually manufacture them any more. People who sell them here are either just middle-men, or refurbishing Edison's old batteries. I'd seriously love to try and update and manufacture the technology myself, but I'm years away from that ability.
    Now I was planning on buying 14.4 kWh of NiFe batteries for ~$5,000. The batteries will last longer if you don't discharge below ~80%, so that leaves me with about 11.5 kWh per night.

    Fundamental to efficient domestic energy usage is your house's insulation, and mine has very little in the attic, so I expect that when I remedy that situation, I will have little trouble with this system. Even as it is, in the hottest of days, if we are smart with power usage, we can get by with ~10kwh of energy consumption at night, so this battery system should well suffice.

    Also, except for the coldest and hottest of days, this system is serious overkill. In the spring and fall seasons, energy usage is often in the single digit kWh, and rarely rises above 30 kWh.

    Finally, yes, if you just buy the proper panels and hook them to the grid, you forego the purchase of batteries, and it is significantly cheaper. That is, unless you hire some of the legion of swindler goons out there who will charge you $15,000 or more for grid-tie power. If you're looking to hire solar installers, be damn careful.

  24. #21
    What is the lifespan of the solar panels? 20 years? then what buy panels again? What about the petroleum products that go into making the panels? What to do with the waste panels?

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by DiverseSegregation View Post
    What is the lifespan of the solar panels?
    What is the Lifespan of your Cars engine.. or Your electric Generator engine?

    How often are you going to replace them? I doubt you get 10 years.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by DiverseSegregation View Post
    What is the lifespan of the solar panels? 20 years? then what buy panels again? What about the petroleum products that go into making the panels? What to do with the waste panels?
    The top solar panels have 25-30 year 80% or more output guarantees. They don't just die. They fade away, much like the Constitution.

    Or the value of the US Dollar.

    This game-changing solar company recycles old panels into new ones
    Rand lied about Crimea and Iran
    " US Must Take Strong Action Against Putin's Aggression" -Rand
    的知 not advocating everyone go out and run around with no clothes on and smoke pot, I知 not a libertarian. I知 a libertarian Republican. I知 a constitutional conservative-Rand Paul
    WARNING: mods/admins are editing sigs without notice

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by DiverseSegregation View Post
    What is the lifespan of the solar panels? 20 years? then what buy panels again? What about the petroleum products that go into making the panels? What to do with the waste panels?
    Haha, some quick replies here, and I believe Mr. Piper answered well.

    What about the petroleum products used to make them? Not my concern. By buying the solar panels, I've already paid for those, haha.
    There have been solar panels demonstrated to work after 40 years, with reduced capacity or course, but still functioning.

    What to do with the waste panels? Like, throw them away, man. Maybe incorporate them as retro art in structural designs. Seriously, though, they're mostly aluminum and silicon. So is dirt. I don't consider them a huge environmental risk, if that's what you mean.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Badnon Wissenshaftler View Post
    Haha, some quick replies here, and I believe Mr. Piper answered well.

    What about the petroleum products used to make them? Not my concern. By buying the solar panels, I've already paid for those, haha.
    There have been solar panels demonstrated to work after 40 years, with reduced capacity or course, but still functioning.

    What to do with the waste panels? Like, throw them away, man. Maybe incorporate them as retro art in structural designs. Seriously, though, they're mostly aluminum and silicon. So is dirt. I don't consider them a huge environmental risk, if that's what you mean.
    I know nothing about the batteries you are considering but Massie stated that his lead acid batteries had very little storage capacity after 10 years. So if your batteries can only be drained x percent and then after awhile they only hold y percent. How does that affect your scenario?

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by DiverseSegregation View Post
    I know nothing about the batteries you are considering but Massie stated that his lead acid batteries had very little storage capacity after 10 years. So if your batteries can only be drained x percent and then after awhile they only hold y percent. How does that affect your scenario?
    Hmmm, not exactly sure what you're asking, but I think this: Massie's lead-acid batteries must have been pretty decent. Most of those don't last that long with any capacity, though he did say they had something like 1/8 their original capacity at the end. I've had lead acid batteries last ~7 years 'till they were nearly useless.

    Nickel Iron batteries don't perform as well as lead-acid batteries in some ways, i.e. the charge efficiency isn't quite as good, and you can't get a torrent of current out of them in a short time, but I think they're ideal for solar storage because of their great longevity. Also, you should really only drain lead-acid batteries to ~50%, or you begin to severely limit their lifespan, or the number of cycles you get. 80% discharge doesn't hurt nickel-iron. Here is a good reference:

    https://modernsurvivalblog.com/alter...parison-chart/

    As they put it, nickel-iron batteries might last 11x longer (cycle-wise) than lead-acid. A cycle is one discharge/recharge, BTW. I'm not even sure anyone truly knows how long a well constructed nickel-iron battery might last with regular (every 10-15 years) electrolyte change. I've heard more than one anecdotal report about someone changing the electrolyte from a 50-70 year old Edison battery and having it work like new.
    Electrolyte for a nickel-iron battery, BTW, is potassium hydroxide solution which is very cheap, though some add a little lithium hydroxide to improve performance.
    Also, keep in mind that light use (10-20% discharge) will occur much of the time, which means added longevity to any battery.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by DiverseSegregation View Post
    I know nothing about the batteries you are considering but Massie stated that his lead acid batteries had very little storage capacity after 10 years. So if your batteries can only be drained x percent and then after awhile they only hold y percent. How does that affect your scenario?
    Also, as an addendum, consider if in 30 years you had to throw away the entire system and get a new one. Even if technology didn't improve and costs didn't decrease, which they will, that's another 30 years for ~$6k. Sounds good to me. Also, nickel iron batteries are pretty environmentally benign, as well.

  32. #28
    Also, also... As I said, there are a great many energy storage media/systems out there, new and old. As far as batteries go, I've oft thought if someone made nickel-hydrogen batteries for off-grid storage, they'd be quite the ticket:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel...drogen_battery

    I believe they could be built affordably. Just don't accidentally shoot them with your 50 cal or something.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Badnon Wissenshaftler View Post
    Also, as an addendum, consider if in 30 years you had to throw away the entire system and get a new one. Even if technology didn't improve and costs didn't decrease, which they will, that's another 30 years for ~$6k. Sounds good to me. Also, nickel iron batteries are pretty environmentally benign, as well.
    That seems pretty ambitious to think that you will replace the system for 6k in 30 years. I use about 60kw per day. I figure it would cost me over 50k for a DIY to get off grid. How many of your batteries would I need to be able to consume 60KW per day?

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by DiverseSegregation View Post
    That seems pretty ambitious to think that you will replace the system for 6k in 30 years. I use about 60kw per day. I figure it would cost me over 50k for a DIY to get off grid. How many of your batteries would I need to be able to consume 60KW per day?
    You really use that much on average? 60 kWh, that is?

    Well, firstly, with regards to batteries, it'll be more about how much energy you use when the Sun isn't shining. Also, whereabouts are you? State will work. Also, why the hell would it be $50k? Is that just for the solar energy system? Even just doubling my estimates will bring you into comfortable territory. giving you 96 kWh/day and 23 kWh (80%) storage.

    Wind is sometimes a decent option, too. At my rural property, there's usually more wind energy than anyone would ever use, and personal windmill generators are cheap as well, with 400 watt versions (~12 MPH winds) at around $100. Of course, if you're technically inclined, you can build these out of a broken generator or even alternators, etc.

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