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  1. #1

    In Defense of Nationalism

    In Defense of Nationalism
    By Pawel Styrna - May 20, 2020

    Recent years have seen nationalism once again ascendant and increasingly victorious at the ballot box, both in the U.S. and throughout the world. ... What they also have in common is a fundamental opposition to unchecked mass migration, open borders, and globalist encroachments on national sovereignty. In response, globalist-inclined elites have raised the threatening specter of “Fascism” and “tribalism,” attacking the new wave of national patriotism – and nationalism in general – as nothing more than racism and demagogic xenophobia. In his fairly recent book, The Virtue of Nationalism (2018), Yoram Hazony, not only debunks the anti-nationalist fear-mongering, but explains how love for one’s nation can actually be a virtue.
    ...
    Following the Second World War, “nationalism” became a dirty word, largely due to the genocidal crimes of Nazi Germany. Thus, much of the Western political, intellectual, and cultural elite views it as a serious threat to a so-called “liberal rules-based global order” and a “reversion” to an age of “war-mongering and racism.” Many American defenders of U.S. national sovereignty and our country’s right to secure our borders and enforce our immigration policies have probably been called “Nazis” or “Fascists” at one time or another, and are therefore quite familiar with this.

    As Hazony points out, however, in the case of Hitler’s Third Reich, an extreme and chauvinistic version of nationalism was bound up with not only biological racism but also a drive to conquer Europe and the world. Thus, the author argues, German Nazi dreams of world domination had more in common with various historical iterations of “universal empire” – including the modern-day globalist drive towards a system of “global governance” without nations or borders – than with more traditional, mainstream forms of nationalism.

    Hazony objects to the tarring of all forms of nationalism with the broad brush of “Nazism” or “Fascism” as much as he rejects racist brands of nationalism. Rather, the kind of nationalism that he is defending is based on the right of peoples (i.e. nations) – bound together by a shared culture, language, history, and traditions (and often, but not always, also shared ethnic and religious affinities) – to chart their independent destinies.

    As The Virtue of Nationalism makes clear, the choice between nationalism and globalism is often not between “exclusionary tribalism” and a world of perfect peace, tolerance, and brotherhood, i.e. between the imperfect real world and utopia. Rather, the alternative is nationalism/national sovereignty versus some form of universal empire – with all the problems and threats that it entails.

    According to Hazony, a nationless and borderless world – or at least one in which borders and nation-states have been made irrelevant – under the auspices or overlordship of some kind of global government poses a significant danger to freedom. By contrast, an order of sovereign nations makes it much more difficult to impose anything, including tyranny, on the world. (Pro-illegal-alien radical activists who chant “f*** borders, f*** nations, f*** deportations” should pay close attention here!)

    The Israeli philosopher also tackles the assertion – so often voiced by leftists and other “anti-nationalists” – that nationalism is tantamount to hate or inevitably leads to it. The problem, Hazony argues, is that there is no evidence that universalist doctrines or movements are somehow free of hateful sentiments. In fact, there exists a “hatred that is found in imperialist movements, which is the hatred that a universal ideal bears against those nations or tribes that refuse to accept its claim to universality.” This is of course borne out by history, whether it is Soviet communists (motivated by an internationalist ideology) decades ago or Islamist radicals (driven by dreams of a global Caliphate) in more recent years.
    ...
    More: https://www.immigrationreform.com/20...ionreform-com/
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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  3. #2
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078WRX331/

    A leading conservative thinker argues that a nationalist order is the only realistic safeguard of liberty in the world today

    Nationalism is the issue of our age. From Donald Trump's "America First" politics to Brexit to the rise of the right in Europe, events have forced a crucial debate: Should we fight for international government? Or should the world's nations keep their independence and self-determination?

    In The Virtue of Nationalism, Yoram Hazony contends that a world of sovereign nations is the only option for those who care about personal and collective freedom. He recounts how, beginning in the sixteenth century, English, Dutch, and American Protestants revived the Old Testament's love of national independence, and shows how their vision eventually brought freedom to peoples from Poland to India, Israel to Ethiopia. It is this tradition we must restore, he argues, if we want to limit conflict and hate--and allow human difference and innovation to flourish.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  4. #3
    Nationalism has always been about creating a monoculture world, destroying regional identities, creating powerful centralized states, and imposing your will on the world. Nationalism did not exist until the French Revolution, and we can see the behavior the people who identified with Nationalism had during its heyday.

    If you think Nationalism is anti-war and against spreading national power, you aren’t a Nationalist.

    Nationalism destroyed states rights, local languages, religions, and ancient traditional orders everywhere in the world. They standardized everything; trade, language, patents, defense, legal authority. Now they complain when internationalists want to take their centralized governments standardized systems and use them to integrate internationally. Nationalists get what they deserve watching their precious creations die after less than a century in most cases.

    People who just wanted to protect their local culture, including from the rest of their country, I feel bad for however.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Cutlerzzz View Post
    Nationalism has always been about creating a monoculture world, destroying regional identities, creating powerful centralized states, and imposing your will on the world. Nationalism did not exist until the French Revolution, and we can see the behavior the people who identified with Nationalism had during its heyday.

    If you think Nationalism is anti-war and against spreading national power, you aren’t a Nationalist.

    Nationalism destroyed states rights, local languages, religions, and ancient traditional orders everywhere in the world. They standardized everything; trade, language, patents, defense, legal authority. Now they complain when internationalists want to take their centralized governments standardized systems and use them to integrate internationally. Nationalists get what they deserve watching their precious creations die after less than a century in most cases.

    People who just wanted to protect their local culture, including from the rest of their country, I feel bad for however.
    So globalism, being nothing more than a bigger version of evil nationalism, is to be celebrated and endorsed?
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  6. #5
    I prefer Confederations. But that train has left the station.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    I prefer Confederations. But that train has left the station.
    Even Confederations are composed of nations.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Even Confederations are composed of nations.
    Yes, I agree. Though they are mostly called "Independent States." Recognized by a definitive border. But, yes, they hold a sovereignty enforced by the will of the people. Or should.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    So globalism, being nothing more than a bigger version of evil nationalism., is to be celebrated and endorsed?
    There. I FIFY.

    "Individualism", freedom/liberty, will not be uttered, tolerated, least of all be televised on TV. It is a DIRECT THREAT to any/all forms of government, and the corporations that take their overwhelming cuts from it.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    There. I FIFY.

    "Individualism", freedom/liberty, will not be uttered, tolerated, least of all be televised on TV. It is a DIRECT THREAT to any/all forms of government, and the corporations that take their overwhelming cuts from it.
    And what can an individual of modest means and no power do to stop global tyranny?
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    And what can an individual of modest means and no power do to stop global tyranny?
    1. Live as an Agorist to the best of ones ability.

    2. Live in complete isolation.

    3. Pretend to believe that “working in the right direction” will lead to freedom in the system that was created to give one that false hope.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  13. #11
    well

    i been
    paying for
    one for all these
    years. if i DONT have
    a nation, I WANT MY MONEY
    BACK
    FLIP THOSE FLAGS, THE NATION IS IN DISTRESS!


    why I should worship the state (who apparently is the only party that can possess guns without question).
    The state's only purpose is to kill and control. Why do you worship it? - Sola_Fide

    Baptiste said.
    At which point will Americans realize that creating an unaccountable institution that is able to pass its liability on to tax-payers is immoral and attracts sociopaths?

  14. #12
    By the way, switching from an a attack on nationalism to an attack on Trump as if the things you attacked him for were nationalism will not fool anyone.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #13
    Nationalism by its very nature is highly collectivist. Since nationalism is a form of collectivism it is definitely a form of socialism. Therefore nationalism is just an earlier stage of fascism just as international socialism is an early stage of communism. Of course, since there is really little difference in policy between fascism and communism it really doesn't matter which you get stuck with. Either way you're $#@!ed.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Nationalism by its very nature is highly collectivist. Since nationalism is a form of collectivism it is definitely a form of socialism. Therefore nationalism is just an earlier stage of fascism just as international socialism is an early stage of communism. Of course, since there is really little difference in policy between fascism and communism it really doesn't matter which you get stuck with. Either way you're $#@!ed.
    LOL

    Not all group activity is socialism.

    The fact that anarchists resort to this kind of childish word games instead of dealing with the fact that individuals can't defend themselves against organized tyrants is the best proof of how wrong you are.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    LOL

    Not all group activity is socialism.

    The fact that anarchists resort to this kind of childish word games instead of dealing with the fact that individuals can't defend themselves against organized tyrants is the best proof of how wrong you are.

    ALL collectivism is socialism. Period. Nationalism is not mere "group activity" it is flat out collectivist tribalism. Period. All of your spin to the contrary notwithstanding.
    Last edited by CCTelander; 05-23-2020 at 11:13 PM.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    ALL collectivism is socialism. Period. Nationalism is not mere "group activity" it is flat out collectivist tribalism. Period. All of your spin to the contrary notwithstanding.
    LOL


    That's pathetic.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    LOL


    That's pathetic.

    That's exactly what a collectivist would say.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    LOL


    That's pathetic.
    Actually, he's correct.

    Btw, you brought trump up first. I merely outlined his partial On the Record as a rebuttal. The first step toward recovery is taking ownership, which you seem to avoid or divert at all costs.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  22. #19
    There are different types forms of Nationalism.
    I saw people on the internet who claim to be Nationalists but they support single payer healthcare.
    Some bad people have hijacked the label. I personally like Cultural nationalism.

  23. #20
    Every time I read an intellectual defending nationalism I think to myself; “Have these people not studied history?” Haven’t we been here before?

    DBx: The alternative to nationalism is not, as is believed by many, one-world government. Nor is the alternative a romantic transformation of human beings into loving members of the giant family “Humankind.”

    The alternative to nationalism is individualism. And of course by individualism is not meant atomism. By individualism is meant liberalism, as this term was originally understood.

    Liberalism rejects the notion that society, the nation, and the market are sentient creatures with preferences and goals and feelings and expectations. Liberalism recognizes that choices are made only by individuals and that experiences are had – are sensed, are expected, are evaluated – only by individuals. Liberalism regards the individual as the measure of all things social.

    And – pay close attention collectivists of all stripes – true liberals not only recognize, but celebrate, the fact that individuals use their freedom to act in ways that create bonds of cooperation with other individuals.

    Some of these bonds, such as those that form the family, are intimate and understandable to the human mind. Other of these bonds, such as most of those that are formed by commerce, are “arms’-length.” But all of these bonds are natural, in the sense that they arise from human nature.

    The full pattern of commercial bonds that make possible modern society are designed by no one and undesignable by anyone. And so to understand complex commercial bonds requires an active application of human intelligence. Whether it be from inability or unwillingness, many people – including many intelligent people – refuse to apply their intelligence to understand the nature of these complex commercial bonds. These people, fearing what they do not understand, lash out at extensive commerce. They blame it for ills that it does not cause, and they refuse to credit it for the countless benefits that it does bring.

    Nationalism – by creating the false impression that the nation is a large family with interests ultimately opposed by foreigners – artificially obstructs individuals’ efforts to form peaceful, productive commercial ties with each other if those ties happen to cross political boundaries.

    It’s stupid. It’s dangerous. It’s nationalism.

    https://cafehayek.com/2020/05/bonus-...e-day-463.html
    Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne,--
    Yet that scaffold sways the future, and, behind the dim unknown,
    Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above his own.
    ‫‬‫‬



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