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Thread: The Pope has proposed a Universal Basic Income after COVID-19

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  3. #2
    Render Caesar's things to Caesar, and God's things to God.
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    In Washington you can see them everywhere: the Parasites and baby Stalins sucking the life out of a once-great nation.

  4. #3
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    I didn't know that the Vatican had that much money but I eagerly await the Pope's check!
    Citizen of Arizona
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    I am a libertarian. I am advocating everyone enjoy maximum freedom on both personal and economic issues as long as they do not bring violence unto others.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Cleaner44 View Post
    I didn't know that the Vatican had that much money but I eagerly await the Pope's check!
    Everybody Wants Some, I Want Some Too
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  6. #5
    Its best that the Vatican doesn't get mix up in politics that didn't go well the last time

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by AngryCanadian View Post
    Its best that the Vatican doesn't get mix up in politics that didn't go well the last time
    The Church should have never been "Legalized'.. AND SHOULD HAVE OPPOSED EVERY GOVERNMENT SINCE.

    You can not serve two masters.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
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  8. #7
    So now this makes more sense.

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...Jesuit-trained

    Jesuit trained Dr. Fauci implodes the U.S. economy and then the Pope proposes universal basic income. Oh and Dr. Fauci proposed "COVID-19 identity cards" for everyone too. Hmmm....

    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...scussed-178784
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  9. #8
    I've generally liked this Pope so far. But I don't agree with this.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    I've generally liked this Pope so far. But I don't agree with this.
    Are you aware of his view on climate change?

    https://www.ncronline.org/news/earth...ress-diplomats

    I think the only things this Pope and AOC disagree on is abortion and gay marriage.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  12. #10

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Are you aware of his view on climate change?

    https://www.ncronline.org/news/earth...ress-diplomats

    I think the only things this Pope and AOC disagree on is abortion and gay marriage.
    Actually I am. I don't have to agree with somebody on everything to like them. I just think he is a genuinely good caring person. I felt like that with John Paul, but Benedict just didn't seem the same.

  14. #12
    ^ ^ road to hell is paved with good intentions,,, much like this idea

    loved how the people of Japan told him to get lost with his hyprocritical and bad advice for Japan to open borders to refugees,,
    Last edited by Dark_Horse_Rider; 04-17-2020 at 05:11 PM.

  15. #13

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    Tax the $#@! out of churches.
    I am not a fan of Frankie, however, I would not wish taxing the $#@! out of my worst enemy.
    ...

  17. #15
    A UBI is a neo-liberal response to coercion in markets. It makes socialism impossible at it disposes of the proletariat. It makes markets freer.

    Every labourer has an alternative to taking the only available job. It makes a minimum wage unnecessary. It makes welfare unnecessary. It makes public schools unnecessary.

    America with a UBI would have a $#@!load more freedom and less government than it does now.

    A UBI is many things, but it is not socialism.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't even a thing nor are capital gains taxes
    Constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  18. #16
    If everybody decided to just be on UBI, who would pay for it?



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    If everybody decided to just be on UBI, who would pay for it?
    Yep thats the thing about socialism. It does work well until you run out of other peoples money.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    If everybody decided to just be on UBI, who would pay for it?
    Nobody, we're all going to pass the same check around to each other and we can't spend it either because we would short change our fellow citizens. LOL

  22. #19
    Mises.org: The Dangers of a Universal Basic Income

    In an unhampered market, the cost-of-living is driven constantly towards zero. Cost-of-living decreases are much better than a universal wage... they are logically equivalent to a universal pay raise.

    UBI bears a lot of similarities to the minimum wage (MW). UBI is basically a "real" MW. Where MW simply prohibits employment arrangements between $0 and the MW, UBI actually "buys up" the surplus labor, thus "propping up" the price of labor. This is the same as any government price-control where the government purchases surplus product to maintain a price-floor. And it falls prey to all the same follies as any price-floor.

    The minimum wage is often touted as a "relatively harmless" economic measure that, even if it is technically anti-market and technically does slightly more harm than good, is still helpful to some people. But this is getting things backwards. I have often thought that the MW is actually one of the most devastating economic measures in existence. Far from being progressive, the MW is a drastically regressive economic measure. This can be seen by looking at the groups of people who are most affected. With a MW:

    - Young people just starting their career will have a much harder time finding entry-level jobs to help them build experience
    - People with disabilities or other disadvantages will have a harder time finding employment
    - People in unusual life-circumstances -- such as changing careers, working after school part-time, new immigrants, and so on -- will have a harder time finding employment
    - Et cetera

    Today, MW is one of many factors that contributes to the old "catch-22" dilemma facing young people just starting out in the workplace. "I need experience on my resume in order to get a job. But I need a job in order to get experience on my resume." Working for extremely low wages, no wages, or even paying to be employed (as in the apprenticeship system), is one way to break this catch-22. "But it's not a living wage!" This is a red herring. Someone who was making $0/hr. until this point in life has never before earned a living wage but somehow managed not to starve to death. So, whatever they were doing before (perhaps chores around the house, or working on the family farm, or whatever) would continue to work well enough to prevent starvation while they transition into a new life situation.

    The UBI takes all of these problems and amplifies them a thousand times. Where before, finding employment was often just a matter of breaking the catch-22, under UBI, it becomes a permanent, inescapable condition, no different than being born into slavery or serfdom. Let's say that the UBI is $15/hr. (~$30K annually). In order to "move up", you will need to produce enough value for your employer to be worth the UBI plus whatever the real cost-of-living is. You can think of the UBI as an above-market wage being paid by Evil Monopoly Corp to prevent workers from being employable by competitors. The non-monopoly competition can't afford such high wages because employees in that line of work can't produce more than $30K of value, so employing them would simply be a loss. Unable to employ anyone, such companies cease to exist at all. In turn, the demand for labor (especially entry-level work) goes down. So, you are either born destined to be slotted into a job at a greater-than-UBI payscale, or you are permanently stuck at UBI and there will simply be no demand for your labor (of the legal variety, anyway) in order to enable you to get out of your condition.

    The UBI, like all socialist measures, is just another fatal conceit. It is founded on the belief that wise, central-planning grey-beards can somehow magically take into account all the relevant factors for setting "the price of labor" in a global market of seven billion people who wake up each day and live out seven billion different lives. These very same grey-beards cannot control the day of their own death, nor the color that their hair grows. And yet they will wisely and adeptly control the economic activity of an entire planet, no sweat.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    If everybody decided to just be on UBI, who would pay for it?
    Who wants to live on less than minimum wage?

    A UBI solves a lot of the problems of a minimum wage. There can be far more entry level jobs.

    UBI is founded not on central planning but on removing coercion from the bottom of the labour market by adding a lowest bid. It doesn't have to be a comfortable or a good bid, just one that means wage negotiations are in good faith.

    Most of the time wages will exceed a low UBI just as they did a low minimum wage. It makes socialism impossible as there will no longer be a proletariate.

    You don't have to beat the UBI, it means a wage of $1 per hour might be interesting to a potential worker, and livable.

    It also lowers risk in going to new jobs, forming a new startup, or other adventures, in fact accelerating the capitalist process. It makes recessions less feared and so less fought against removing gross government interventions and distortions.
    Last edited by idiom; 04-18-2020 at 12:56 AM.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't even a thing nor are capital gains taxes
    Constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  24. #21
    This coming from a man who joked (wink-wink) that his scotch whiskey is the real holy water. Could be the real reason liquor stores are open during the plannedemic?

    Pope Francis joke that Scotch whisky is ‘real holy water’ cut by Vatican from documentary
    https://www.masslive.com/entertainme...cumentary.html
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  25. #22
    A few interesting views on it. This article includes links to CATO and Reason articles.

    https://www.libertarianism.org/colum...e-basic-income


    My views are that UBI and universal healthcare are an example of how crony capitalism has gotten so very out of scale and people trying to figure out a basic solution. The last recession, and now the pandemic bailouts, involves such huge transfers of wealth to the connected that it is difficult to even grasp. Also we won't even know what this pandemic all ends up giving away until it's over. This all comes down as potential solutions to level the playing field enough to even have a playing field. Of course these topics just gloss over the underlying issues that make these even being a topic to talk about.
    “…let us teach them that all who draw breath are of equal worth, and that those who seek to press heel upon the throat of liberty, will fall to the cry of FREEDOM!!!” – Spartacus, War of the Damned

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  26. #23
    It's already hard enough to find decent, reliable workers these days. Now I gotta compete with the feds doling out free money to everyone with a pulse?
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    I am not a fan of Frankie, however, I would not wish taxing the $#@! out of my worst enemy.
    I understand, but they need to feel the pain.



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