Bailout “needs to be in the $6 trillion range”

[Krugminator2]

Why is the bolded part anything to do with it? Of course he voted against the bill. It wasn't paid for.

Doctor: You need to have immediate surgery. You have massive internal bleeding. You will die if we don't do this immediately.

Economically illiterate patient: Well how much is surgery?

Doctor: $150,000

Economically illiterate patient: Well I don't have that much. I need to budget and figure out how to pay for it and will come back when I have the full amount paid for.

Doctor: We'll figure that out later. YOU WILL DIE if you don't this right now.

Economically illiterate patient: I am going to go home and think about it and start working on getting it paid for.


There is no tomorrow if this doesn't happen now. Nothing else will matter. We are going to have a -25% GDP quarter and most of the country will get caught in the undertow. We can 25% unemployment. There is no dollar amount that doesn't make sense. Nothing in the world matters if we have a Great Depression. You might think you have infinite life because Jesus or something. Losing 10 years of life going through a depression isn't something most people more glued to this world think is a good idea.

[Warlord]

Doctor: You need to have immediate surgery. You have massive internal bleeding. You will die if we don't do this immediately.

Economically illiterate patient: Well how much is surgery?

Doctor: $150,000

Economically illiterate patient: Well I don't have that much. I need to budget and figure out how to pay for it and will come back when I have the full amount paid for.

Doctor: We'll figure that out later. YOU WILL DIE if you don't this right now.

Economically illiterate patient: I am going to go home and think about it and start working on getting it paid for.

Rand and his family have insurance,

[dannno]

Doctor: You need to have immediate surgery. You have massive internal bleeding. You will die if we don't do this immediately.

Economically illiterate patient: Well how much is surgery?

Doctor: $150,000

Economically illiterate patient: Well I don't have that much. I need to budget and figure out how to pay for it and will come back when I have the full amount paid for.

Doctor: We'll figure that out later. YOU WILL DIE if you don't this right now.

Economically illiterate patient: I am going to go home and think about it and start working on getting it paid for.

But we do have $150,000, it's just tied up in war spending.

[Krugminator2]

But we do have $150,000, it's just tied up in war spending.

The bill needs to be in the $6 trillion range. (Though most will be repaid.) The entire Iraq and Afghanistan wars were not $6 trillion, let alone the little we spend on them now relative to what needs to happen.

[Warlord]

The bill needs to be in the $6 trillion range. (Though most will be repaid.) The entire Iraq and Afghanistan wars were not $6 trillion, let alone the little we spend on them now relative to what needs to happen.

Where are the Feds getting 6 trillion from?

[Krugminator2]

Where are the Feds getting 6 trillion from?

Borrow and print. That is what is needed. It isn't optional. Either they do or we have lost years of life in Great Depression II.

[Warlord]

Borrow and print. That is what is needed. It isn't optional. Either they do or we have lost years of life in Great Depression II.

If printing and borrowing worked then Zimbabwe would be an economic powerhouse.

There is no such thing as 'free' money .

[oyarde]

Where are the Feds getting 6 trillion from?

Where did they get the last 700 billion ? Same place . At the gettin' store .

[dannno]

The bill needs to be in the $6 trillion range. (Though most will be repaid.) The entire Iraq and Afghanistan wars were not $6 trillion, let alone the little we spend on them now relative to what needs to happen.

You have gone off the deep end.

[olehounddog]

You have gone off the deep end.

he said he has always been in the deep end

[acptulsa]

Doctor: You need to have immediate surgery. You have massive internal bleeding. You will die if we don't do this immediately.

Economically illiterate patient: Well how much is surgery?

Doctor: $150,000

Economically illiterate patient: Well I don't have that much. I need to budget and figure out how to pay for it and will come back when I have the full amount paid for.

Doctor: We'll figure that out later. YOU WILL DIE if you don't this right now.

Economically illiterate patient: I am going to go home and think about it and start working on getting it paid for.

He wrote a bill to do all that and cut Afghanistan Quagmire spending by that amount.

You don't think that would be better for a struggling national economy in a world growing skeptical of U.S. bonds?

[Warlord]

Who said it was free? It will come at the expense of future growth. But that is preferable to doing nothing and having no growth until 2030.

No first world capitalist country has ever had hyperinflation in peacetime through money printing. Japan has run deficits bigger than this onetime deficit for decades.

There is no way the Feds can print or borrow 6 trillion... Get real.

[Krugminator2]

There is no way the Feds can print or borrow 6 trillion... Get real.

Of course they could. The current total debt is $23 trillion and unfunded liabilities are much larger. This will only increase the debt by a trillion. Most the $6 trillion would be short term loans which the government will make a little money on just like TARP, which worked.

[Warlord]

Of course they could. The current total debt is $23 trillion and unfunded liabilities are much larger. This will only increase the debt by a trillion. Most the $6 trillion would be short term loans which the government will make a little money on just like TARP, which worked.

Err no. It would hurt the dollar & the markets. You can't print your way to prosperity.

[Krugminator2]

Err no. It would hurt the dollar & the markets. You can't print your way to prosperity.

You can't print your way into prosperity but you sure can print your way out of depression. See 2008-2009. No hyperinflation. Worked quite well.

[Warlord]

You can't print your way into prosperity but you sure can print your way out of depression. See 2008-2009. No hyperinflation. Worked quite well.

No it did not work. Otherwise the Fed would have increased rates and reduced the liabilities on their balance sheet which they didn't. They just delayed the crisis until today!

Have you not learned anything?

The can was kicked down the road.

[Bern]

... See 2008-2009. ... Worked quite well.

The chickens from 2008 are still on their way home to roost. The Fed is trapped in a ZIRP twilight zone while zombie companies continue to eat brains long after they should have died and asset bubbles (equities markets especially) still have room to unwind (ie. crash). To "fix" this, the Fed is going to need to double or triple their $4.7T balance sheet. I don't expect the current world order (global monetary system with petrodollar reserve currency) will survive this. YMMV.

[oyarde]

You can't print your way into prosperity but you sure can print your way out of depression. See 2008-2009. No hyperinflation. Worked quite well.

I am still amazed that it worked as well as it did . Now we will see if it will work another time if Pelosi OK's it . The senate is powerless . The choice they will get is yes or no on a Pelosi staff written 125 page bill only they have read.

[nikcers]

Err no. It would hurt the dollar & the markets. You can't print your way to prosperity.

The value of the economic power of the dollar only increases when none essential economic activity is suspended.

[anaconda]

There is no way the Feds can print or borrow 6 trillion... Get real.

Could be a good thing for BTC holders..

[jmdrake]

Doctor: You need to have immediate surgery. You have massive internal bleeding. You will die if we don't do this immediately.

Economically illiterate patient: Well how much is surgery?

Doctor: $150,000

Economically illiterate patient: Well I don't have that much. I need to budget and figure out how to pay for it and will come back when I have the full amount paid for.

Doctor: We'll figure that out later. YOU WILL DIE if you don't this right now.

Economically illiterate patient: I am going to go home and think about it and start working on getting it paid for.


There is no tomorrow if this doesn't happen now. Nothing else will matter. We are going to have a -25% GDP quarter and most of the country will get caught in the undertow. We can 25% unemployment. There is no dollar amount that doesn't make sense. Nothing in the world matters if we have a Great Depression. You might think you have infinite life because Jesus or something. Losing 10 years of life going through a depression isn't something most people more glued to this world think is a good idea.

Nice dishonest analogy. Rand didn't say "Don't have the surgery until we find out how to pay for it." He put in his amendment how to pay for it. And the bill passed anyway.

[Krugminator2]

Nice dishonest analogy. Rand didn't say "Don't have the surgery until we find out how to pay for it." He put in his amendment how to pay for it. And the bill passed anyway.

It hasn't been voted on yet. And Rand just said on Twitter he wouldn't vote it. Called it a monstrosity.

[Brian4Liberty]

The bill needs to be in the $6 trillion range. (Though most will be repaid.) The entire Iraq and Afghanistan wars were not $6 trillion, let alone the little we spend on them now relative to what needs to happen.

Remind us again which issues upon which you agree with Ron Paul?

[Krugminator2]

Remind us again which issues upon which you agree with Ron Paul?

Everything but macroeconomic stuff. I have never changed since 2014, when I joined the forum. Nothing I am saying is new. I have always been a Milton Friedman guy. No doubt in my mind what St. Milton would do right now.

I am only pounding the table because it is maddening watching people like Rand (who I have always been the a big butt kisser and defender of) not realize the enormity of this situation.

[dannno]

Everything but macroeconomic stuff. I have never changed since 2014, when I joined the forum. Nothing I am saying is new. I have always been a Milton Friedman guy. No doubt in my mind what St. Milton would do right now.

I am only pounding the table because it is maddening watching people like Rand (who I have always been the a big butt kisser and defender of) not realize the enormity of this situation.

What is the enormity of the situation?

There have been about 220,000 verified cases of the flu in the US and about 22,000 deaths this last year. That is a 10% death rate based on known cases. However, they estimate that only 1 in 161 people who get the flu end up being tested, most just stay home and take flu medications. So that brings the fatality rate to about .1%.

If we used those same numbers, the fatality rate for COVID-19 is about .05%, which is about half of the flu.

Now, more people are demanding to get tested for this because it's scary and we don't know a lot about it and it's all over the media.. but on the other hand, testing supplies have been very limited. They aren't testing people unless they have serious symptoms or have pretty bad symptoms and are old or have underlying conditions.

So the fact is we don't even really know the fatality rate, but it could possibly be less than the flu.

What evidence do you have that this is a $6 trillion situation?

Even if you are right and it is pretty bad, they already have tested cheap and effective meds against it.

[Brian4Liberty]

Everything but macroeconomic stuff. I have never changed since 2014, when I joined the forum. Nothing I am saying is new. I have always been a Milton Friedman guy. No doubt in my mind what St. Milton would do right now.

I am only pounding the table because it is maddening watching people like Rand (who I have always been the a big butt kisser and defender of) not realize the enormity of this situation.

If you throw out a macro number like $6 trillion, we need to know where it’s going.

What would this money be spent on, specifically?

[JJ2]

Doctor: You need to have immediate surgery. You have massive internal bleeding. You will die if we don't do this immediately.

Economically illiterate patient: Well how much is surgery?

Doctor: $150,000

Economically illiterate patient: Well I don't have that much. I need to budget and figure out how to pay for it and will come back when I have the full amount paid for.

Doctor: We'll figure that out later. YOU WILL DIE if you don't this right now.

Economically illiterate patient: I am going to go home and think about it and start working on getting it paid for.


There is no tomorrow if this doesn't happen now. Nothing else will matter. We are going to have a -25% GDP quarter and most of the country will get caught in the undertow. We can 25% unemployment. There is no dollar amount that doesn't make sense. Nothing in the world matters if we have a Great Depression. You might think you have infinite life because Jesus or something. Losing 10 years of life going through a depression isn't something most people more glued to this world think is a good idea.

The only cause of this Great Depression II will be government (and media) overreacting (and unconstitutionally reacting) to a virus that may end up having a similar death rate as influenza.

[eleganz]

Guys this stimulus and drastic measures doesn't need to go ANY further at least not in the interim. We have chloroquine which does wonders on apparently 100% of patients tested thus far.

Its ok that Trump is activating some laws that were already on the books as a backup measure but none of the stimulus or the federal laws will even need to be used if this medication works for even a majority of people getting sick.

[devil21]

No offense OP, but didn't you admit that you played this crash badly and your stocks are in the toilet now? I imagine a $6t stimulus would boost your stock portfolio enough in the short term to maybe dump them off on someone else. Sounds like you're talkin' your book a bit here...

[Krugminator2]

I’m going to have to go out on a limb and say that this centrally controlled market and price fixing leads to a huge moral hazard, not to mention that centrally planned markets tend to fail. Top that off with monetary inflation that could lead to hyperinflation. It’s playing with fire.

There is moral hazard but businesses are going to behave better no matter what after this. 2008-09 scared banks and they have been much less eager to lend. The question is what is the alternative? The damage from this could take years to unravel if massive action is taken. There aren't enough GoFundMe's to help everyone out.


My view on the Fed matches Scott Sumner's, who is the most notable Friedmanite economist. https://www.themoneyillusion.com/goo...ever-it-takes/

And Bullard at the Fed probably has the right idea about plugging the leak. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN2190FT

These are just my opinions (which counts for nothing), but I do know that playing fire and having Great Depression II isn't something I want to get anywhere near. The Great Depression wasn't just some accident from tariffs or income inequality or spending too much or whatever nonsense reason. It came about from mass bankruptcy that spiraled out of control.