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  1. #1

    ‘Gun-Free’ Businesses Would Be Held Responsible for Shootings Under New Minnesota Bill

    A new bill introduced in the Minnesota House would allow gun owners to pursue civil litigation if they suffer an injury, or worse, while in a gun-free zone.

    The bill, House File 3051, would provide for a civil course of action “when a person who is prohibited from carrying a firearm on a property suffers a loss by not having the firearm.”

    “A property owner or entity who prohibits the carrying of firearms by a person who is otherwise authorized to carry a firearm or who is not otherwise prohibited from carrying a firearm shall assume absolute custodial responsibility for the safety and defense of the unarmed person while the person is located on the owner’s or entity’s property that is posted with a sign prohibiting firearms,” states the bill.

    The bill was introduced last week by Rep. Jeremy Munson (R-Lake Crystal) and has four Republican co-sponsors.

    “In Minnesota we have now over 300,000 citizens who have a permit to carry a gun so a lot of people carry a gun for self-defense. More and more businesses are putting gun-free zone signs on their business—it really is a way to market to people who don’t like guns,” Munson said in a recent interview.



    continued..https://tennesseestar.com/2020/02/18...innesota-bill/
    "The Patriarch"



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  3. #2
    Good
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Good
    I doubt it passes in today's insane political environment but in a sane world it would be unanimous.
    "The Patriarch"

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    I doubt it passes in today's insane political environment but in a sane world it would be unanimous.
    Times are changing.

    This will happen sooner or later.

    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Times are changing.

    This will happen sooner or later.

    Could probably do without the one on the right. Looks like a nigerian.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Could probably do without the one on the right. Looks like a nigerian.
    K is within all of us.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #7
    won't get anywhere in MN.
    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer

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  9. #8
    How about the novel libertarian idea of not patronizing businesses with practices who don't support? enough with these new laws and lawsuits.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    How about the novel libertarian idea of not patronizing businesses with practices who don't support? enough with these new laws and lawsuits.
    Disarm me and you are responsible for my safety, it's that simple.
    And it's libertarian.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Disarm me and you are responsible for my safety, it's that simple.
    And it's libertarian.
    Exactly!

  13. #11
    Not at all certain I can agree with this.

    With private property follow private property rights.

    If Johnny DouchePig owns a business open to the public and wants no guns therein, it is his sovereign prerogative to ban them. Those who enter upon those premises, having been admonished of the prohibition, have no leg upon which to stand if, having so entered upon that property without a firearm in their possession, criminals enter the property contemporaneously and cause harm to said persons. Mr. DouchePig cannot be reasonably held liable for the acts of the criminals.

    Consider this: the law in question passes and something happens in a "no guns" establishment and all manner of people are injured or killed. Are those who would otherwise have not armed themselves also entitled to sue DouchePig? I dare say they do not. DouchePig may well be his namesake, but he is not obliged to provide you with protection.

    You come and you go, to and from business establishments as you might. If a given location gives you pause, then do not enter there. The choice is not only upon you fully, you cannot lay claim to the right to do business there. Were it otherwise, an entire can of worms would open before the world's eyes in terms of unforeseen consequences.

    The entire premise of this law, an apparently unstated one, is repellant to the idea of free men living as such and in accord with the demands that freedom places upon those who would claim that status openly. This law attempts to lay at the feet of men whose equal rights they seek to exercise, responsibilities that are not theirs.

    If I do not want guns in my home and you enter unarmed just as burglars arrive, in what manglng twist of logic do I become liable for the criminal acts of the perpetrators?

    This idea is idiotic and should be resoundingly trounced into the dust.

    PS: you can always enter armed in covert fashion. That is what I do all the time. Don't ask, don't tell. If perchance bad things happen and you kill a would-be murdered with your sidearm, the worst charge that could be brought (assuming competence and integrity of the local officials) is a trespassing violation. If DouchePig calls for charges in the wake of his having saved you from death, I would have to vote in favor of beating him verily with an iron bar.
    Last edited by osan; 02-23-2020 at 12:40 PM.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Freedom will be stolen from you in a heartbeat if you do not behave as a wild and ravening beast pursuant to its protection.

    "Government" is naught but a mental construct, a script to which people meekly accept and play out their assigned roles by those with no authority to dictate such.

    Pray for reset.


  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Not at all certain I can agree with this.

    With private property follow private property rights.

    If Johnny DouchePig owns a business open to the public and wants no guns therein, it is his sovereign prerogative to ban them. Those who enter upon those premises, having been admonished of the prohibition, have no leg upon which to stand if, having so entered upon that property without a firearm in their possession, criminals enter the property contemporaneously and cause harm to said persons. Mr. DouchePig cannot be reasonably held liable for the acts of the criminals.

    Consider this: the law in question passes and something happens in a "no guns" establishment and all manner of people are injured or killed. Are those who would otherwise have not armed themselves also entitled to sue DouchePig? I dare say they do not. DouchePig may well be his namesake, but he is not obliged to provide you with protection.

    You come and you go, to and from business establishments as you might. If a given location gives you pause, then do not enter there. The choice is not only upon you fully, you cannot lay claim to the right to do business there. Were it otherwise, an entire can of worms would open before the world's eyes in terms of unforeseen consequences.

    The entire premise of this law, an apparently unstated one, is repellant to the idea of free men living as such and in accord with the demands that freedom places upon those who would claim that status openly. This law attempts to lay at the feet of men whose equal rights they seek to exercise, responsibilities that are not theirs.

    If I do not want guns in my home and you enter unarmed just as burglars arrive, in what manglng twist of logic do I become liable for the criminal acts of the perpetrators?

    This idea is idiotic and should be resoundingly trounced into the dust.

    PS: you can always enter armed in covert fashion. That is what I do all the time. Don't ask, don't tell. If perchance bad things happen and you kill a would-be murdered with your sidearm, the worst charge that could be brought (assuming competence and integrity of the local officials) is a trespassing violation. If DouchePig calls for charges in the wake of his having saved you from death, I would have to vote in favor of beating him verily with an iron bar.
    Rarely do we disagree, but on this I must take the view in the OP. There is no "private property" for business open to the public anymore. Johnnie Douchebag cannot put up a sign reading "No Blacks allowed." Johnny Douchebag cannot refuse to provide handicap access.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    There is no "private property" for business open to the public anymore.
    How do you reason? What have I missed?

    Johnnie Douchebag cannot put up a sign reading "No Blacks allowed." Johnny Douchebag cannot refuse to provide handicap access.
    That's DouchePIG, sir. That aside, he should be able to do all that without governmental interference. The market, OTOH, may vote with its wallet.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Freedom will be stolen from you in a heartbeat if you do not behave as a wild and ravening beast pursuant to its protection.

    "Government" is naught but a mental construct, a script to which people meekly accept and play out their assigned roles by those with no authority to dictate such.

    Pray for reset.


  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    How do you reason? What have I missed?



    That's DouchePIG, sir. That aside, he should be able to do all that without governmental interference. The market, OTOH, may vote with its wallet.
    The difference between "should" and "can" is the distance of a long hot asphalt mile. What I'm saying is that since DouchePig must accommodate the "rights" of blacks and the "rights" of the disabled, then DouchePig should have to accommodate the basic fundamental right of self-defense. No "gun-free" zone allowed. Either accept that "the public" has the right to go about armed in your establishment or hand over your business license and close your $#@!ing door to the general public.
    Last edited by phill4paul; 02-24-2020 at 07:03 AM.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    The difference between "should" and "can" is the distance of a long hot asphalt mile. What I'm saying is that since DouchePig must accommodate the "rights" of blacks and the "rights" of the disabled, then DouchePig should have to accommodate the basic fundamental right of self-defense. No "gun-free" zone allowed. Either accept that "the public" has the right to go about armed in your establishment or hand over your business license and close your $#@!ing door to the general public.
    This is a battle that will harm you more than it helps you. You continue to play this game with the establishment and soon enough they will demand you open your restrooms to transgender women. I say its better to stop the bleeding instead trying to make more cuts. Quit while your are ahead

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    The difference between "should" and "can" is the distance of a long hot asphalt mile. What I'm saying is that since DouchePig must accommodate the "rights" of blacks and the "rights" of the disabled, then DouchePig should have to accommodate the basic fundamental right of self-defense. No "gun-free" zone allowed. Either accept that "the public" has the right to go about armed in your establishment or hand over your business license and close your $#@!ing door to the general public.
    Given the positive reality, I may agree, but said reality sucks Michelle Obama. I'd rather the reality change such that "Irish need not apply" carries zero criminal liability.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Freedom will be stolen from you in a heartbeat if you do not behave as a wild and ravening beast pursuant to its protection.

    "Government" is naught but a mental construct, a script to which people meekly accept and play out their assigned roles by those with no authority to dictate such.

    Pray for reset.




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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Not at all certain I can agree with this.

    With private property follow private property rights.

    If Johnny DouchePig owns a business open to the public and wants no guns therein, it is his sovereign prerogative to ban them. Those who enter upon those premises, having been admonished of the prohibition, have no leg upon which to stand if, having so entered upon that property without a firearm in their possession, criminals enter the property contemporaneously and cause harm to said persons. Mr. DouchePig cannot be reasonably held liable for the acts of the criminals.

    Consider this: the law in question passes and something happens in a "no guns" establishment and all manner of people are injured or killed. Are those who would otherwise have not armed themselves also entitled to sue DouchePig? I dare say they do not. DouchePig may well be his namesake, but he is not obliged to provide you with protection.

    You come and you go, to and from business establishments as you might. If a given location gives you pause, then do not enter there. The choice is not only upon you fully, you cannot lay claim to the right to do business there. Were it otherwise, an entire can of worms would open before the world's eyes in terms of unforeseen consequences.

    The entire premise of this law, an apparently unstated one, is repellant to the idea of free men living as such and in accord with the demands that freedom places upon those who would claim that status openly. This law attempts to lay at the feet of men whose equal rights they seek to exercise, responsibilities that are not theirs.

    If I do not want guns in my home and you enter unarmed just as burglars arrive, in what manglng twist of logic do I become liable for the criminal acts of the perpetrators?

    This idea is idiotic and should be resoundingly trounced into the dust.

    PS: you can always enter armed in covert fashion. That is what I do all the time. Don't ask, don't tell. If perchance bad things happen and you kill a would-be murdered with your sidearm, the worst charge that could be brought (assuming competence and integrity of the local officials) is a trespassing violation. If DouchePig calls for charges in the wake of his having saved you from death, I would have to vote in favor of beating him verily with an iron bar.
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Really? What libertarian would support this? This is just a right wing "bake the cake Nazi" bill. The owner has every right to restrict guns and people know the risks of entering a gun free establishment. The culpability lies with the shooter not the business. There is a far more reasonable argument to be made for lawsuits if something happens in a public area that is a gun free zone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    I don't disagree with this. My response was rather knee jerk and I was thinking pretty much entirely about public spaces and anything under government control.

    If you make a policy of disarming your customers you not only disarm them but advertise their disarmament to would be criminals.
    You absolutely are responsible to provide protection or be liable for any harm that comes to them.
    If you don't want to be responsible then either don't disarm your customers or have a private club with a contract that holds you harmless.
    Last edited by Swordsmyth; 02-23-2020 at 05:51 PM.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    I doubt it passes in today's insane political environment but in a sane world it would be unanimous.
    Really? What libertarian would support this? This is just a right wing "bake the cake Nazi" bill. The owner has every right to restrict guns and people know the risks of entering a gun free establishment. The culpability lies with the shooter not the business. There is a far more reasonable argument to be made for lawsuits if something happens in a public area that is a gun free zone.
    Last edited by Krugminator2; 02-23-2020 at 12:36 PM.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Really? What libertarian would support this? This is just a right wing "bake the cake Nazi" bill. The owner has every right to restrict guns and people know the risks of entering a gun free establishment. The culpability lies with the shooter not the business. There is a far more reasonable argument to be made for lawsuits if something happens in a public area that is a gun free zone.
    I don't disagree with this. My response was rather knee jerk and I was thinking pretty much entirely about public spaces and anything under government control.
    "The Patriarch"

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Not at all certain I can agree with this.

    With private property follow private property rights.

    I Johnny DouchePig owns a business open to the public and wants no guns therein, it is his sovereign prerogative to ban them. Those who enter upon those premises, having been admonished of the prohibition, have no leg upon which to stand if, having so entered upon that property without a firearm in their possession, criminals enter the property contemporaneously and cause harm to said persons, Mr. DouchePig cannot be reasonably held liable for the acts of the criminals.

    Consider this: the law in question passes and something happens in a "no guns" establishment and all manner of people are injured or killed. Are those who would otherwise have not armed themselves also entitled to sue DouchePig? I dare say they do not. DouchePig may well be his namesake, but he is not obliged to provide you with protection.

    You come and you go to and from business establishments as you might. If a given location gives you pause, then do not enter there. The choice is not only upon you fully, you cannot lay claim to the right to do business there. Were it otherwise, an entire can of worms would open before the world's eyes in terms of unforeseen consequences.

    The entire premise of this law, an apparently unstated one, is repellant to the idea of free men living as such and in accord with the demands that freedom places upon those who would claim that status openly. This law attempts to lay at the feet of men whose equal rights they seek to exercise, responsibilities that are not theirs.

    If I do not want guns in my home and you enter unarmed just as burglars arrive, in what manglng twist of logic do I become liable for the criminal acts of the perpetrators?

    This idea is idiotic and should be resoundingly trounced into the dust.
    That’s all fine and good in a private property situation and I agree with you. Where I disagree is in public Gun Free Zones in which we have no choice but to do business at times. If I am forced to go to the DMV unarmed then who is ultimately responsible for my personal safety while in their building? The state has removed my ability to make the choice. That’s one of many examples.

    If you delete my fundamental rights then you become my keeper. Keep me 100% guaranteed safe or get out of the way so I can go about it how I want to. God given and all that too.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Slave Mentality View Post
    That’s all fine and good in a private property situation and I agree with you. Where I disagree is in public Gun Free Zones in which we have no choice but to do business at times. If I am forced to go to the DMV unarmed then who is ultimately responsible for my personal safety while in their building? The state has removed my ability to make the choice. That’s one of many examples.

    If you delete my fundamental rights then you become my keeper. Keep me 100% guaranteed safe or get out of the way so I can go about it how I want to. God given and all that too.
    There can be no validity to such zones in the commons. Whatever the source of such a prohibition, it would stand squarely liable for any and all damages inflicted upon ANYONE and ANY TIME so long at such a zone was being enforced under pain of felony charges, etc. The people responsible would be liable for full restitution and might even qualify for a death sentence, especially if they instituted such a zone under the imprimatur of a public office.

    Public officials and other agents have zero valid authority to place any such restrictions on any publicly owned space or other property. If they don't like our rights, they are most welcome to step down and go clean toilets or something more suited to their timid and likely corrupted characters.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Freedom will be stolen from you in a heartbeat if you do not behave as a wild and ravening beast pursuant to its protection.

    "Government" is naught but a mental construct, a script to which people meekly accept and play out their assigned roles by those with no authority to dictate such.

    Pray for reset.


  25. #22
    If I owned a business I would allow people to bring their guns into my store.
    "Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."

    Calvin Coolidge

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Globalist View Post
    If I owned a business I would allow people to bring their guns into my store.
    The Exxon station in Pinch WV has a sign welcoming firearms bearing customers. They're good people.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Freedom will be stolen from you in a heartbeat if you do not behave as a wild and ravening beast pursuant to its protection.

    "Government" is naught but a mental construct, a script to which people meekly accept and play out their assigned roles by those with no authority to dictate such.

    Pray for reset.


  27. #24
    I have a business where a ask my customers not to do something in my store. Somebody comes in and does that activity I banned and another person is harmed. I am the one who should be sued? Or should it be the person committing the prohibited act against my wishes?



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    I have a business where a ask my customers not to do something in my store. Somebody comes in and does that activity I banned and another person is harmed. I am the one who should be sued? Or should it be the person committing the prohibited act against my wishes?
    You let everyone know that your customers were easy pickings.
    The criminal should be punished but if the customers can't get full compensation from him then you are responsible.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  30. #26
    I disagree with this bill as written. If the sign on the door simply says "No Guns Allowed", I'm not in favor of punishment of the property owner. If you're not comfortable with the rules, don't enter the building.

    That being said, I've seen some businesses that have signs saying "For your safety and ours, firearms are not allowed on the premises". In this case, I'm in favor of allowing the private property owner to be sued, since the property owner is assuring the customer that they are safe in their building.

    A property owner shouldn't be punished for making rules that you don't agree with. It's their property. Not yours. If they're making false promises and assurances that they can't keep, then it's fair game.
    Last edited by revgen; 02-23-2020 at 06:29 PM.

  31. #27
    Private business obviously wrong. Any consumer can take their business elsewhere just like deciding on a baker.

    I do wonder, can you show up armed to the offices of Rep. Jeremy Munson?
    “…let us teach them that all who draw breath are of equal worth, and that those who seek to press heel upon the throat of liberty, will fall to the cry of FREEDOM!!!” – Spartacus, War of the Damned

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  32. #28
    Inside a city in Minnesota you are surrounded by communists , democrats , criminal immigrants and other degenerates . Of course I will still be armed no matter what the sign says.Signs are for peasantry . Secretly they are all seeking a chance to steal your wallet so you must be prepared to defend yourself and eliminate them when they strike .

  33. #29
    So everyone agrees i do not have to care if someone says I should not be armed ? looks like we are getting somewhere .

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    So everyone agrees i do not have to care if someone says I should not be armed ? looks like we are getting somewhere .
    I go armed everywhere. Period. Even the post office.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Freedom will be stolen from you in a heartbeat if you do not behave as a wild and ravening beast pursuant to its protection.

    "Government" is naught but a mental construct, a script to which people meekly accept and play out their assigned roles by those with no authority to dictate such.

    Pray for reset.


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