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Thread: The Libertarian Case for a Basic Income

  1. #1

    The Libertarian Case for a Basic Income

    The Libertarian Case for a Basic Income
    https://www.libertarianism.org/colum...e-basic-income
    Current federal social welfare programs in the United States are an expensive, complicated mess. According to Michael Tanner, the federal government spent more than $668 billion on over one hundred and twenty-six anti-poverty programs in 2012. When you add in the $284 billion spent by state and local governments, that amounts to $20,610 for every poor person in America.

    Wouldn’t it be better just to write the poor a check?
    The Pragmatic Libertarian Case for a Basic Income Guarantee
    https://www.cato-unbound.org/2014/08...come-guarantee
    Cheaper

    Second, a BIG could be considerably cheaper than the current welfare state. How much cheaper depends on the details of the particular proposal. Some, like Murray’s, which involve a progressive tax on the BIG once a certain threshold of income is reached, appear to be considerably cheaper. Other analyses, like Ed Dolan’s, suggest only that a moderate BIG would not cost more than what we currently spend.
    Milton Friedman on Universal Basic Income
    https://heavy.com/news/2019/06/milton-friedman-on-ubi/
    Friedman Thought UBI Gave People More Freedom...
    Friedman Wanted to Cut-out Government Interference in People’s Lives....
    Friedman Thought UBI Would Enable Work & Increase Equality....
    Why Did Hayek Support a Basic Income?
    https://www.libertarianism.org/colum...t-basic-income

    On the other hand.

    4 New Reasons to Fear a Universal Basic Income
    https://mises.org/wire/4-new-reasons...l-basic-income

    Don’t Be Duped by the Latest "Universal Basic Income" Scheme
    https://mises.org/wire/dont-be-duped...-income-scheme

    The Hidden Costs of a Universal Basic Income
    https://mises.org/wire/hidden-costs-...l-basic-income

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by kahless; 02-10-2020 at 11:11 PM.



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  3. #2
    UBI is r selecting, the idea of getting free resources just for existing warps the mind and turns people into liberals, any libertarian society that adopted it would not remain libertarian for long.

    You'd be better off with a one time massive redistribution of assets to compensate for the many generations of theft by the Fed etc.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    UBI is r selecting, the idea of getting free resources just for existing warps the mind and turns people into liberals, any libertarian society that adopted it would not remain libertarian for long.

    You'd be better off with a one time massive redistribution of assets to compensate for the many generations of theft by the Fed etc.
    Indeed. Money is supposed to be compensation for time and labor. If they start giving people money just for exchanging oxygen for CO2, I see trouble down the line.

    It'll turn out to be like the plethora of welfare programs that incentivize people to do the absolute minimum to be able to still qualify to receive benefits. It's sad, but there are people who do things like work fewer hours to stay just under the poverty line, or they won't get married because they will lose their handouts. This won't bode well for society.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Elliot's The Hollow Men

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    Indeed. Money is supposed to be compensation for time and labor. If they start giving people money just for exchanging oxygen for CO2, I see trouble down the line.

    It'll turn out to be like the plethora of welfare programs that incentivize people to do the absolute minimum to be able to still qualify to receive benefits. It's sad, but there are people who do things like work fewer hours to stay just under the poverty line, or they won't get married because they will lose their handouts. This won't bode well for society.
    It also gives government the power to reduce or stop the money if you don't do what it wants, just look at all the states that take federal money.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It also gives government the power to reduce or stop the money if you don't do what it wants, just look at all the states that take federal money.
    That's not really forcing anything, the argument goes, the participants opt in willingly.

  7. #6
    It'll start at $20k. Then move to $30k. Then move to.....

    Everyone has the RIGHT to be rich.

    Stupid Libertarians.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    It'll start at $20k. Then move to $30k. Then move to.....

    Everyone has the RIGHT to be rich.

    Stupid Libertarians.
    LOL
    $20,610 for every poor person in America.
    I don't get that much on SS. (under $10k)

    I could live Large on $20k.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    It'll start at $20k. Then move to $30k. Then move to.....

    Everyone has the RIGHT to be rich.

    Stupid Libertarians.
    Andrew Yang is a cheapskate. I would give everyone a million dollars every year. Everyone will be a millionaire every January 1st.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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  11. #9
    UBI is better than the welfare state but I don't support it.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Sammy View Post
    UBI is better than the welfare state but I don't support it.
    I am on the fence since I have seen evidence it would reduce it and evidence it will not. What I do know is having no solution to replace social services will continue to grow big government. A more authoritarian form of government at that. Where UBI keeps the government out of peoples lives even those who do need the UBI. Just look at healthcare. If we moved to more of a UBI like solutions maybe we would not be having the conversation about government taking complete control over our healthcare.

    There is a perception that Libertarians have consistently failed to provide solutions to reduce the size of the welfare state. As a result the welfare state and government involvement in our lives continues to grow. To me it seems obvious that sustainable private charitable solutions should be promoted as an alternative. But where are these libertarians? We hear nothing from the most vocal other than disdain for their fellow man and that is to their own detriment. This selfishness and not providing solutions to get us out of the clutches of big government is the reason why we are stuck with it.

    The most vocal libertarians it seems are the crony Capitalists, with a let them die and indentured servitude to them rather than government attitude. So the average person sees just two terrible choices. Although Crony Capitalism is a step better since the Cronies fail with competition. Where as Crony government we are stuck with it and that is what people need to understand when it comes to people like Bernie Sanders. The problem again is these same libertarians support monopolies which is just as bad as crony government and again that is all the Sanders type supporters will see.

    Effectively we are ending up with big government due to the crony libertarians are the loudest of the bunch while others are living a pipe dream demanding no government and therefore unwilling to make concessions to reduce the size of government. So government grows larger by the day.

    You want to reduce the size of government and keep government out of our lives then libertarians better start speaking up with alternative solutions rather than being absolute in their beliefs.

    The UBI seems to me like a good start as a possible solution to replace the welfare state, reduce it's size and keep government out of our lives.
    Last edited by kahless; 02-12-2020 at 02:43 PM.

  13. #11
    No such thing.

    Libertarianism and UBI are diametrically opposed and are in fact mutually exclusive.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  14. #12
    Has life become too complicated for an average peon to cope? I think I started a thread on this subject but it might have been deleted.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    I am on the fence since I have seen evidence it would reduce it and evidence it will not. What I do know is having no solution to replace social services will continue to grow big government. A more authoritarian form of government at that. Where UBI keeps the government out of peoples lives even those who do need the UBI. Just look at healthcare. If we moved to more of a UBI like solutions maybe we would not be having the conversation about government taking complete control over our healthcare.

    There is a perception that Libertarians have consistently failed to provide solutions to reduce the size of the welfare state. As a result the welfare state and government involvement in our lives continues to grow. To me it seems obvious that sustainable private charitable solutions should be promoted as an alternative. But where are these libertarians? We hear nothing from the most vocal other than disdain for their fellow man and that is to their own detriment. This selfishness and not providing solutions to get us out of the clutches of big government is the reason why we are stuck with it.

    The most vocal libertarians it seems are the crony Capitalists, with a let them die and indentured servitude to them rather than government attitude. So the average person sees just two terrible choices. Although Crony Capitalism is a step better since the Cronies fail with competition. Where as Crony government we are stuck with it and that is what people need to understand when it comes to people like Bernie Sanders. The problem again is these same libertarians support monopolies which is just as bad as crony government and again that is all the Sanders type supporters will see.

    Effectively we are ending up with big government due to the crony libertarians are the loudest of the bunch while others are living a pipe dream demanding no government and therefore unwilling to make concessions to reduce the size of government. So government grows larger by the day.

    You want to reduce the size of government and keep government out of our lives then libertarians better start speaking up with alternative solutions rather than being absolute in their beliefs.

    The UBI seems to me like a good start as a possible solution to replace the welfare state, reduce it's size and keep government out of our lives.
    The problem is that rich libertarians (usually crony libertarians) tend to be selfish and don't intend to ever set up charities while the rest of us tend to be too poor to do that kind of thing.

    I think the first thing to do is find ways to get government out of the way so people can make a living and not need so much charity and so that more people can afford to give to charity.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    The Libertarian Case for a Basic Income
    https://www.libertarianism.org/colum...e-basic-income


    The Pragmatic Libertarian Case for a Basic Income Guarantee
    https://www.cato-unbound.org/2014/08...come-guarantee


    Milton Friedman on Universal Basic Income
    https://heavy.com/news/2019/06/milton-friedman-on-ubi/


    Why Did Hayek Support a Basic Income?
    https://www.libertarianism.org/colum...t-basic-income

    On the other hand.

    4 New Reasons to Fear a Universal Basic Income
    https://mises.org/wire/4-new-reasons...l-basic-income

    Don’t Be Duped by the Latest "Universal Basic Income" Scheme
    https://mises.org/wire/dont-be-duped...-income-scheme

    The Hidden Costs of a Universal Basic Income
    https://mises.org/wire/hidden-costs-...l-basic-income

    Thoughts?
    This thread title reeks to high heaven of infiltrators, fake libertarians like Gary Johnson, this isn't something
    you would ever hear form a real libertarian/constitutionalist.
    Is this a policy that you endorse Kahless?

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    This thread title reeks to high heaven of infiltrators, fake libertarians like Gary Johnson, this isn't something
    you would ever hear form a real libertarian/constitutionalist.
    Is this a policy that you endorse Kahless?
    The thread title is from the first article I posted from https://www.libertarianism.org. See my post above this one for the answer.

    To add to that: We will never live in a libertarian like society and I blame libertarians for this since as demonstrated time and time again in this forum people are demanding the country be completely libertarian over night. That is not going to happen. It took the Progressives 100 years to get to where they are today. The best we can do is reduce the size and role of government incrementally.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    The thread title is from the first article I posted from https://www.libertarianism.org. See my post above this one for the answer.

    To add to that: We will never live in a libertarian like society and I blame libertarians for this since as demonstrated time and time again in this forum people are demanding the country be completely libertarian over night. That is not going to happen. It took the Progressives 100 years to get to where they are today. The best we can do is reduce the size and role of government incrementally.
    lol , I thought the thread title was about libertarians offering Basic Income, my bad......



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  20. #17
    If you give up the principle, you're just haggling over price.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
    If you give up the principle, you're just haggling over price.
    So stick to your principles and let opportunities pass to reduce it's size. Just stay 1% and let the Communists eventually take over. Principles, got it.

    Seems libertarians have been purposefully brainwashed to never give an inch intentionally as useful tools for Progressives, Socialists and Communists to implement their plans without any real opposition.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    No such thing.

    Libertarianism and UBI are diametrically opposed and are in fact mutually exclusive.
    Depends on how you look at it.

    A libertarian might prefer a UBI of $100 per year to each person that costs each person $100 in taxes over a welfare state that costs each person $10,000 per year in taxes.

    However, you would be correct that a libertarian in a free society that has no state welfare would not promote a UBI.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
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    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

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  23. #20
    At the very least, I'd argue that in order to receive UBI you must first voluntarily get sterilized. If you need UBI, then you are in no position to be spawning more children.
    Last edited by specsaregood; 02-13-2020 at 03:27 PM.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    So stick to your principles and let opportunities pass to reduce it's size.
    "Opportunities." LOL
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Depends on how you look at it.

    A libertarian might prefer a UBI of $100 per year to each person that costs each person $100 in taxes over a welfare state that costs each person $10,000 per year in taxes.

    However, you would be correct that a libertarian in a free society that has no state welfare would not promote a UBI.
    We are so far from living in a free society so why not do what we can to reduce the governments role and size now? It is a ridiculous far fetched fantasy year after year that libertarians have in believing the US will suddenly become a libertarian like society overnight, while doing nothing to take small steps to get there. While this goes on government gets bigger and intrudes on our lives.

    So what is the point of the libertarian movement? A set a values to marvel at like a book on a shelf with no effort to strategically get us to that utopia? Is it like some Star Trek future fantasy that people resign themselves to that is a impossible dream maybe hundreds of years from now? Are libertarians just people that have resigned themselves to be 1% that bitches and moans in forums about government rather than taking small steps to get us there?

    I suspect nothing will change and in 20 years we will be having the same discussion in this forum. Except we will probably have to have a license to post here and are posts will be included as part of our social credit score. That is where we are headed if libertarians continue down the same road they have in the past.
    Last edited by kahless; 02-13-2020 at 03:39 PM.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members



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  29. #25
    @NorthCarolinaLiberty, can we keep the memes to H/T although funny they really do not tell me why you disagree with the segment of libertarians that support it and what I have posted here on this topic.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    @NorthCarolinaLiberty, memes...although funny...
    Well, thank you. I made them myself!


    they really do not tell me why you disagree with the segment of libertarians that support it and what I have posted here on this topic.
    Yep, I get the practical versus principle angle, but this "discussion" is a waste of time.

    RPF has paid-prog trolls. That's a fact.

    They make a mockery of this forum. Not only does no one want to do anything about it--the trolls are rewarded!

    If this forum can't even take care of simple business like trolls, then this place will never accomplish a single thing. Ever.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    @NorthCarolinaLiberty, can we keep the memes to H/T although funny they really do not tell me why you disagree with the segment of libertarians that support it and what I have posted here on this topic.
    Who exactly are these supposed Libertarians that you are speaking of that support Basic Income ?

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Sammy View Post
    UBI is better than the welfare state but I don't support it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sammy View Post
    UBI is better than the welfare state but I don't support it.
    How is Free Cash better or different than Welfare?

    Who do you see supporting it?

    Do you think Ron Paul would endorse this?

    Are you familiar with Ron Paul?

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    The thread title is from the first article I posted from https://www.libertarianism.org. See my post above this one for the answer.

    To add to that: We will never live in a libertarian like society and I blame libertarians for this since as demonstrated time and time again in this forum people are demanding the country be completely libertarian over night. That is not going to happen. It took the Progressives 100 years to get to where they are today. The best we can do is reduce the size and role of government incrementally.
    This thread title reeks to high heaven of infiltrators, fake libertarians like Gary Johnson, this isn't something
    you would ever hear form a real libertarian/constitutionalist.
    Is this a policy that you endorse Kahless?

    Did you read your thread title , did some one else post that for you ?

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
    RPF has paid-prog trolls. That's a fact.

    They make a mockery of this forum. Not only does no one want to do anything about it--the trolls are rewarded!

    If this forum can't even take care of simple business like trolls, then this place will never accomplish a single thing. Ever.
    This is not a troll. If you even bothered to read the first post in this thread, I provided examples of libertarians on both sides of the UBI discussion. The first article comes from libertarian.org. The links I posted are mostly from libertarians sites and libertarians that support or do not support the UBI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    Who exactly are these supposed Libertarians that you are speaking of that support Basic Income ?
    Just like your friend above you did not bother to read the first post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    This thread title reeks to high heaven of infiltrators, fake libertarians like Gary Johnson, this isn't something
    you would ever hear form a real libertarian/constitutionalist.
    Is this a policy that you endorse Kahless?

    Did you read your thread title , did some one else post that for you ?
    I already replied to this exact same post already in this thread.

    I think it is pretty clear who are the actual trolls and infiltrators here.

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