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Thread: Rand just voted for the USMCA

  1. #31
    We need to vote harder.
    "The Patriarch"



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  3. #32


    I'm not a big fan of this bill. Sacrificing our sovereignty to a transnational body is a bad idea.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    ...or maybe it's better than what we had.

    What should Trump do? Have them draft a real free trade agreement that will never pass, or draft a better agreement that is more free trade than what we had before?

    What should Rand do? Vote for a better agreement, or vote against a better agreement?
    Exactly. I believe it was Thomas Massie who said "Would you rather have crap on a plate or crap on a plate with bread?"

    Just like if the current tax was 10% and the new bill moved it to 8% voting yes doesn't mean one agrees with the tax.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Uh ya, but if Ron Paul had the opportunity to replace one managed trade deal with a better managed trade deal (defined as having more free trade and lower tariffs), do you think he would vote for it?
    No.
    "The Patriarch"

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pre-NAFTA unless they renew the USMCA or create something new.
    That would mean yet higher tariffs.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That would mean yet higher tariffs.
    It would mean whatever we set the tariffs to, it would mean restored sovereignty.

    We would be perfectly free to set the tariffs anywhere we wanted them or negotiate bi-lateral trade deals.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #37
    There just isn't any good way to spin this, and as it isn't Trump poor Rand is screwed here on DT forums.
    "The Patriarch"

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It would mean whatever we set the tariffs to, it would mean restored sovereignty.
    If it would mean pre-NAFTA it would mean higher tariffs, because NAFTA lowered tariffs.

    We would be perfectly free to set the tariffs anywhere we wanted them or negotiate bi-lateral trade deals.
    Everyone is already free to do that; none of this has anything at all to do with sovereignty.

    Every state is free to tax consumption to subsidize coercive labor unions; some of us simply object to that policy.
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 01-16-2020 at 11:07 PM.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    There just isn't any good way to spin this, and as it isn't Trump poor Rand is screwed here on DT forums.
    Rand's vote wouldn't have made any difference one way or the other and the sunset clause is a good thing.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    No.
    Incorrect.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Incorrect.
    Well, I guess only RP can settle this. Neither of us can speak for him.
    "The Patriarch"

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Well, I guess only RP can settle this. Neither of us can speak for him.
    Ron Paul said he would potentially support a consumption tax if it replaced the income tax, in whole or in part.

    Basically, if taxes go down enough he would vote for it. Making a new tax for the sake of saving 1% is not a good idea, because now they have more ways to tax you and they can just raise it. But if it is a significant enough of an income tax break, then it would be worth it.

    Pretty sure if a managed trade deal came along that was exactly the same, but it slashed tariffs by 90%, he would vote for it.

    But I guess if you're really desperate to know still you could ask him. I already know the answer.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Warlord View Post
    Toomey was the only GOP senator to vote against it.
    And Lou Dobbs crucified him for it.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  17. #44
    No lack of henpecking liBROtarians in here I see.

    It doesn't need to be explained too many times here that Rand is a Republican, hes not a part-time Republican where any armchair quarterback can tell the GOP to screw off when you feel like it. Its no secret that Rand, has a lot of juggling to do to appease both sides, his staff probably wastes a lot of time figuring out ways not to piss off the other side when he needs to take a stand on something or sit down when the time is right. Some of you don't like it and thats why you will never get to see any of your purist ideologies come to fruition.

    If you consider yourself a Libertarian, where is your LP Senator putting out Libertarian votes? Oh there aren't any...because the LP is so purist that they can't get a coalition of supporters to win any relevant election.

    Rand didn't have to run and keep this going, he had a fine practice and lived a good life with a good family.

    I support Rand 100%, he has a good heart to continue the work that literally nobody else will do or is even capable of doing, and he carries the movement on his shoulders.
    All that he gets is a bunch of thankless henpecking from "libertarians" that would like to see Bernie Sanders in the white house for the lolz, and "libertarians" that think Ron Paul is a grotesque embarrassment.

    So while you get to enjoy your privacy, families, and sit on the sidelines making stupid commentary...Rand goes to work everyday having to shake hands with people he knows is evil while only getting incremental progress for conservatives at the same time D.C. slides further into the abyss.
    @Ehanced_Deficit's real agenda on RPF :
    DNC-S (Soros)
    CLINTON-PELO-SCHIFF
    NYT-CNN-SOCIALIST
    CIA-B (Brennan)

    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Bernie will bring about a more free market in the US than Trump. Hence the reason I wouldn't mind having him as my next president.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by eleganz View Post
    No lack of henpecking liBROtarians in here I see.

    It doesn't need to be explained too many times here that Rand is a Republican, hes not a part-time Republican where any armchair quarterback can tell the GOP to screw off when you feel like it. Its no secret that Rand, has a lot of juggling to do to appease both sides, his staff probably wastes a lot of time figuring out ways not to piss off the other side when he needs to take a stand on something or sit down when the time is right. Some of you don't like it and thats why you will never get to see any of your purist ideologies come to fruition.

    If you consider yourself a Libertarian, where is your LP Senator putting out Libertarian votes? Oh there aren't any...because the LP is so purist that they can't get a coalition of supporters to win any relevant election.

    Rand didn't have to run and keep this going, he had a fine practice and lived a good life with a good family.

    I support Rand 100%, he has a good heart to continue the work that literally nobody else will do or is even capable of doing, and he carries the movement on his shoulders.
    All that he gets is a bunch of thankless henpecking from "libertarians" that would like to see Bernie Sanders in the white house for the lolz, and "libertarians" that think Ron Paul is a grotesque embarrassment.

    So while you get to enjoy your privacy, families, and sit on the sidelines making stupid commentary...Rand goes to work everyday having to shake hands with people he knows is evil while only getting incremental progress for conservatives at the same time D.C. slides further into the abyss.
    But they have Amash.................Until the next election.









    And the only thing he is doing is empowering our worst enemies.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #46
    double
    Last edited by devil21; 01-17-2020 at 02:55 PM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

    Israel, under control of the Crown and, ultimately, the Vatican, own the USA. If you don't know this by now....

    Talk to people about liberty. You won't find it on websites, you won't find it in politicians.

    Visiting the Outer Banks of NC?
    Outer Banks NC Fishing Boat Rentals

  20. #47
    Last edited by devil21; 01-17-2020 at 02:17 AM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

    Israel, under control of the Crown and, ultimately, the Vatican, own the USA. If you don't know this by now....

    Talk to people about liberty. You won't find it on websites, you won't find it in politicians.

    Visiting the Outer Banks of NC?
    Outer Banks NC Fishing Boat Rentals

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Maybe so but Rand is the kind of go along, get along person that he would probably vote for TPP too. He is just a good team player
    Yeah, right, especially on the war powers and budget.
    My website: https://www.theherbsofthefield.com/

    "No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another.” ~ Charles Dickens



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Yeah, right, especially on the war powers and budget.
    I just think the man is a watered down, counterfeit version of Ron. Last week he said the US military liberated Iraq 3x, like what? You will never hear Ron say that sort of rubbish. Don't get me wrong, Rand is OK but he is a party man. Had he been replaced with Ron, this site would never had existed.
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    I just think the man is a watered down, counterfeit version of Ron. Last week he said the US military liberated Iraq 3x, like what? You will never hear Ron say that sort of rubbish. Don't get me wrong, Rand is OK but he is a party man. Had he been replaced with Ron, this site would never had existed.
    I should have put on my post. Because Rand is not "the kind of go along, get along person." He stands firm with the guidelines of the Constitution.
    My website: https://www.theherbsofthefield.com/

    "No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another.” ~ Charles Dickens

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    I should have put on my post. Because Rand is not "the kind of go along, get along person." He stands firm with the guidelines of the Constitution.
    Question, do you think Ron would have voted for USMCA? Ron is more of a constitutionalist(not just on this) and Rand is a party pragmatist. This is what the man said when they asked him about the NAU.

    Not only do I not want a North American Union, I want us out of the U.N., the IMF, the World Bank, the WTO, NAFTA and CAFTA. NAFTA has nothing to do for free trade. It’s a pretense to lower tariffs, but it’s a reason to go talk to the WTO to raise tariffs. We need free trade. That’s very, very important. But you don’t get that by world government.
    This is the sort of talk that bring a movement together. Rand would probably say something lukewarm, middle ground and not harmful to the party. But I do agree with you that he does consider the dictates of the constitution more than the majority of his colleagues
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  26. #52
    "republican", democrat, independent... If you grow something, make something, want to negotiate/contract/trade... Government WILL find you, no matter where on earth you try to go.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3)

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    ...or maybe it's better than what we had.

    What should Trump do? Have them draft a real free trade agreement that will never pass, or draft a better agreement that is more free trade than what we had before?

    What should Rand do? Vote for a better agreement, or vote against a better agreement?
    I think even the most hardcore trump fans were against this. You know it is ok to criticize once in a while. When you cheerlead every single move even when it is $#@! on a plate and your told its lobster...at the end of the day you still have $#@! on your face

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by jon4liberty View Post
    I think even the most hardcore trump fans were against this. You know it is ok to criticize once in a while. When you cheerlead every single move even when it is $#@! on a plate and your told its lobster...at the end of the day you still have $#@! on your face
    So now you agree with "Trump fans" more than you agree with Rand Paul??

    Ok, I guess you know more about it than Rand...
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Question, do you think Ron would have voted for USMCA? Ron is more of a constitutionalist(not just on this) and Rand is a party pragmatist. This is what the man said when they asked him about the NAU.
    I think there is a good chance Ron would have voted for it as well.

    It's probably better than what we have, plus it has a sunset clause.

    That is one of the more egregious aspects of NAFTA, there was no sunset clause.

    Even if USMCA is 1% better than NAFTA, I don't see why Ron Paul would not have voted for it.

    Obviously he didn't support NAFTA because it was worse than what we had before NAFTA.

    But if this is better than NAFTA, why wouldn't he vote for it?

    Like others have said, if taxes are 10% and you vote for taxes to be 8%, that means you support reducing taxes. It doesn't mean you support an 8% tax.

    That is an extremely simple concept that almost half this forum fails to grasp.
    Last edited by dannno; 01-17-2020 at 09:54 AM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Ron Paul said he would potentially support a consumption tax if it replaced the income tax, in whole or in part.

    Basically, if taxes go down enough he would vote for it. Making a new tax for the sake of saving 1% is not a good idea, because now they have more ways to tax you and they can just raise it. But if it is a significant enough of an income tax break, then it would be worth it.

    Pretty sure if a managed trade deal came along that was exactly the same, but it slashed tariffs by 90%, he would vote for it.

    But I guess if you're really desperate to know still you could ask him. I already know the answer.
    If one follows and listens to Ron Paul they should already know this too.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    But they have Amash.................Until the next election.

    And the only thing he is doing is empowering our worst enemies.

    And THAT is exactly what you always have been and are counting on.........
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3)

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    I think there is a good chance Ron would have voted for it as well.

    It's probably better than what we have, plus it has a sunset clause.

    That is one of the more egregious aspects of NAFTA, there was no sunset clause.

    Even if USMCA is 1% better than NAFTA, I don't see why Ron Paul would not have voted for it.

    Obviously he didn't support NAFTA because it was worse than what we had before NAFTA.

    But if this is better than NAFTA, why wouldn't he vote for it?

    Like others have said, if taxes are 10% and you vote for taxes to be 8%, that means you support reducing taxes. It doesn't mean you support an 8% tax.

    That is an extremely simple concept that almost half this forum fails to grasp.
    Holy smokes. Are you really trying to convince us that Dr. No would have voted for USMCA? Seriously?
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

    Israel, under control of the Crown and, ultimately, the Vatican, own the USA. If you don't know this by now....

    Talk to people about liberty. You won't find it on websites, you won't find it in politicians.

    Visiting the Outer Banks of NC?
    Outer Banks NC Fishing Boat Rentals

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    Holy smokes. Are you really trying to convince us that Dr. No would voted for USMCA? Seriously?
    If it is better than what we have currently, and it has a sunset clause, then 100% without a doubt he would vote for it.

    What possible, logical argument would there be against it?

    Did you even read the post you just quoted?

    If there is a tax cut, Ron Paul will vote for it. Trolls will say he is voting for a tax, but really he is voting for a tax cut. Exact same issue here, absolutely no difference.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    If it is better than what we have currently, and it has a sunset clause, then 100% without a doubt he would vote for it.

    What possible, logical argument would there be against it?
    No one is buying what you're selling. Just stop.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

    Israel, under control of the Crown and, ultimately, the Vatican, own the USA. If you don't know this by now....

    Talk to people about liberty. You won't find it on websites, you won't find it in politicians.

    Visiting the Outer Banks of NC?
    Outer Banks NC Fishing Boat Rentals

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