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Thread: According to Ron Paul Congress declares war on Iran with sanctions

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    I don't think that you honestly believe that Ron Paul was protesting the fact that we declared war via sanctions while he was simultaneously protesting the fact that we hadn't declared war. That makes no sense.

    Of course engaging and levying is not declaring, which is the exact point Ron Paul was making. His point is that Congress should not be imposing sanctions because it's an act of war, but they had not declared war. Of course, you aren't here to support Ron Paul, you're here to support Trump so obviously you are not going to agree with Ron Paul on very much.


    Article III, Section 3, Clause 1 : Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.

    Article 1, Section 10, Clause 3 No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.
    So you think a state can declare a war against a foreign country as long as they don't actually engage in a war?

    The parts you quoted don't say that declaring war is different from engaging in war or that engaging in war doesn't declare a war.
    Ron is correct that Congress should have either issued a declaration of war or not imposed sanctions but that just means Congress started a war without a specific declaration and that is a problem for Congress not Trump.

    Congress never declared war on the Barbary Pirates either but Jefferson fought a war with them because they had declared war on us (like Iran has) and Congress authorized acts of war in response. (which Congress has done in relation to Iran by voting for sanctions and with the War Powers act)
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Sanctions are an "act of war" & should not exist unless war has been constitutionally declared.
    Why is that so hard for Sword ?



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Why is that so hard for Sword ?
    Why is it so hard for you to understand that an act of war creates a war?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

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  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    What the $#@! is going on here anymore? This place has been over run by a demented version of John McCains ghost.
    Hell yeah. The war and killing propaganda is being spread thicker than the postersí cognitive dissonance. Defending The Chosen One like abused housewives. Everywhere.
    Last edited by Slave Mentality; 01-15-2020 at 10:33 PM.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Why is it so hard for you to understand that an act of war creates a war?
    So does that mean that Trump has started a war with Venezuela, Cuba, Russia, North Korea, Bolivia etc etc?
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    So does that mean that Trump has started a war with Venezuela, Cuba, Russia, North Korea, Bolivia etc etc?
    Are sanctions an act of war?
    Did Congress vote for the sanctions?


    Iran was at war with us one way or another and Solly was a valid self defense target one way or another.
    We are still at war with N. Korea, that war never ended.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

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  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    So does that mean that Trump has started a war with Venezuela, Cuba, Russia, North Korea, Bolivia etc etc?
    Did any of those countries already have sanctions on them?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  10. #38

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Ron said that Congress engaged in an act of war against Iran, that's the same thing as declaring war against Iran.
    They debated whether to impose sanctions and they declared sanctions imposed, if sanctions are an act of war as Ron declares them to be then Congress debated war and declared it.
    Its not, and there is longstanding legal principles/precedence that makes this clear. Jus ad bellum and Jus in bello. Referring to the declaration of war and acts of war respectively. This is a secondary point, I see you've already been taken to task on the primary issue regarding the US constitution. But, since you are excited, I suppose you will enlist (if you are not already serving in some capacity for some place, eh? )

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by bv3 View Post
    Its not, and there is longstanding legal principles/precedence that makes this clear. Jus ad bellum and Jus in bello. Referring to the declaration of war and acts of war respectively. This is a secondary point, I see you've already been taken to task on the primary issue regarding the US constitution. But, since you are excited, I suppose you will enlist (if you are not already serving in some capacity for some place, eh? )
    The government would never wage war illegally without following the constitution.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by bv3 View Post
    Its not, and there is longstanding legal principles/precedence that makes this clear. Jus ad bellum and Jus in bello. Referring to the declaration of war and acts of war respectively. This is a secondary point, I see you've already been taken to task on the primary issue regarding the US constitution. But, since you are excited, I suppose you will enlist (if you are not already serving in some capacity for some place, eh? )
    I want all the wars ended and the troops brought home.
    But Congress and Iran have put Trump in the same position as Jefferson vs. the Barbary Pirates, there is a war in fact and Congress has authorized the President to conduct it and has directed specific acts of war.

    All of the problems belong to Congress.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Why is it so hard for you to understand that an act of war creates a war?
    A state of war may exist illegally. That is to say: A war that is conducted outside legal requirements (Jus ad Bellum--clear in the US constitution--congressional declaration) is an illegal war.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by bv3 View Post
    A state of war may exist illegally. That is to say: A war that is conducted outside legal requirements (Jus ad Bellum--clear in the US constitution--congressional declaration) is an illegal war.
    That's the fault of Congress and/or Iran, Trump has a duty to defend our people in the war.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I want all the wars ended and the troops brought home.
    But Congress and Iran have put Trump in the same position as Jefferson vs. the Barbary Pirates, there is a war in fact and Congress has authorized the President to conduct it and has directed specific acts of war.

    All of the problems belong to Congress.
    Cop out (pun). The presidents duty is to faithfully execute the laws of the Constitution. The constitution stipulates that it is for congress to declare war. A president that prosecutes a war, even one that preexisted his/her ascension to office, that is illegal has failed in his/her primary duty (faithfully execution of the law).

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That's the fault of Congress and/or Iran, Trump has a duty to defend our people in the war.
    His duty, which he willingly assumed at the time of his oath, is to faithfully execute the law. Prosecuting a war (committing an act of war outside a legal state of war) is, more than dereliction, a direct contravention of that duty.

    Rah rah for him, if you must (the other guy is more difficult/infuriating btw) but don't piss on yourself and tell me its raining.

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by bv3 View Post
    Cop out (pun). The presidents duty is to faithfully execute the laws of the Constitution. The constitution stipulates that it is for congress to declare war. A president that prosecutes a war, even one that preexisted his/her ascension to office, that is illegal has failed in his/her primary duty (faithfully execution of the law).
    Presidents role is to defend the constitution. If he can expose the deepstate by bringing national attention to the corruption that is what he should do.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by bv3 View Post
    Cop out (pun). The presidents duty is to faithfully execute the laws of the Constitution. The constitution stipulates that it is for congress to declare war. A president that prosecutes a war, even one that preexisted his/her ascension to office, that is illegal has failed in his/her primary duty (faithfully execution of the law).
    Quote Originally Posted by bv3 View Post
    His duty, which he willingly assumed at the time of his oath, is to faithfully execute the law. Prosecuting a war (committing an act of war outside a legal state of war) is, more than dereliction, a direct contravention of that duty.

    Rah rah for him, if you must (the other guy is more difficult/infuriating btw) but don't piss on yourself and tell me its raining.

    It is also the duty of the President as Commander in Chief to defend our people in any war.
    It's not his fault if Congress or a foreign power start one without an official declaration.
    There was never a declaration of war against the Barbary Pirates.
    This is all a Congressional problem.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It is also the duty of the President as Commander in Chief to defend our people in any war.
    It's not his fault if Congress or a foreign power start one without an official declaration.
    There was never a declaration of war against the Barbary Pirates.
    This is all a Congressional problem.
    Congress has not started a war with Iran, since Congress has not declared war on Iran. Again, an act of war (one might say a component of a war) when carried out absent a declaration is unconstitutional (which is Dr. Paul's point, obvious point). It is the presidents duty to faithfully execute the law, which (like it or more likely not) is still the US Constitution. This duty precedes all others. As soon as he ascended to office (i.e. completed his oath) it was his duty as commander in chief to cease, immediately, the prosecution of all illegal wars (i.e. acts of war committed absent a congressional declaration of war). His duty to the people deployed is far beyond defense--it is to bring them home. Occupation is, like assassination and sanctions, an internationally recognized act of war.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by bv3 View Post
    Congress has not started a war with Iran, since Congress has not declared war on Iran. Again, an act of war (one might say a component of a war) when carried out absent a declaration is unconstitutional (which is Dr. Paul's point, obvious point). It is the presidents duty to faithfully execute the law, which (like it or more likely not) is still the US Constitution. This duty precedes all others. As soon as he ascended to office (i.e. completed his oath) it was his duty as commander in chief to cease, immediately, the prosecution of all illegal wars (i.e. acts of war committed absent a congressional declaration of war). His duty to the people deployed is far beyond defense--it is to bring them home. Occupation is, like assassination and sanctions, an internationally recognized act of war.
    Congress enacting sanctions is starting a war if sanctions are an act of war.
    And Iran has certainly made itself at war with us.
    The duty of the President is to protect Americans in any war, he doesn't have to wait for Congress to find out about the war and declare war back at an enemy in order to defend Americans.
    There was never an American declaration of war against the Barbary Pirates and we had not declared war against Japan when the Navy sank the Japanese minisub that tried to enter Pearl Harbor before the attack.

    We should bring all the troops home and end the wars but Trump must defend our people until that happens.
    Every time he talks about ending wars and bringing troops home Congress tries to stop him, the problems belong to Congress.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Congress enacting sanctions is starting a war if sanctions are an act of war.
    And Iran has certainly made itself at war with us.
    The duty of the President is to protect Americans in any war, he doesn't have to wait for Congress to find out about the war and declare war back at an enemy in order to defend Americans.
    There was never an American declaration of war against the Barbary Pirates and we had not declared war against Japan when the Navy sank the Japanese minisub that tried to enter Pearl Harbor before the attack.

    We should bring all the troops home and end the wars but Trump must defend our people until that happens.
    Every time he talks about ending wars and bringing troops home Congress tries to stop him, the problems belong to Congress.
    No, no, no--You are getting it backwards still. Congress has the power to declare war. Congress does not have the power to commit and act of war. They are separate legal occurrences. Congress declares the war (by a vote, not an act) and the President pursues the war.

    Iran is at war with us? Have they boarded any American merchant vessels lately? Have they extracted tribute? Enslaved any American seamen? Iranians are on the continent? In Hawaii? Alaska? I wonder, did sanctions have anything to do with that Jap minisub? (Oh, thats right, they did.).

    Congress is not commander in chief. The problem is that Trump is either a bad president or lacks the balls (both, likely)

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by bv3 View Post
    No, no, no--You are getting it backwards still. Congress has the power to declare war. Congress does not have the power to commit and act of war. They are separate legal occurrences.
    Congress does have the power to commit acts of war unless you are denying that sanctions are an act of war.
    And according to the founders acts of war create a war.

    19:57
    "A declaration of war again does not necessarily mean a piece of paper that says 'we have declared war against you', under the founders' understanding war is declared when there are actions that create a war"





    Quote Originally Posted by bv3 View Post
    Congress declares the war (by a vote, not an act) and the President pursues the war.
    That's overly simplistic but Congress did vote for what Ron says are acts of war and has authorized the President to pursue the war it and Iran started in the War Powers act.

    Quote Originally Posted by bv3 View Post
    Iran is at war with us? Have they boarded any American merchant vessels lately? Have they extracted tribute? Enslaved any American seamen? Iranians are on the continent? In Hawaii? Alaska?
    Iran kills Americans and says it is at war with us.

    The IRGC declares itself to be at war with us.

    The new leader of Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps' elite Quds Force once boasted that U.S. troops have “suffered more losses from us than we have suffered losses from them” and has repeatedly ripped President Trump and America’s allies.
    Brigadier Gen. Esmail Qaani, 62, now spearheads the special military unit following the death of Gen. Qassem Soleimani, who was killed Thursday in a U.S. airstrike at Baghdad International Airport in Iraq. He had served as Soleimani’s deputy commander since 1997 – and the Treasury Department says he has used his power to direct funding toward terrorist groups like Hezbollah.
    Qaani, like many other Iranian government and military officials, also has a history of making hostile and inflammatory statements against the U.S.
    “America has suffered more losses from us than we have suffered losses from them,” the Middle East Institute quoted him as saying during a 2017 ceremony in commemoration of Iranian forces and Iranian-backed militias battling in Syria and Iraq.

    More at: https://www.foxnews.com/world/esmail...ce-iran-us-foe


    The original IRANIAN source:
    https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/1...AF%D9%87%D8%AF

    Translated:
    https://translate.google.com/#view=h...8%A7%D9%85%2F*

    "The war we have with the United States has been successful in standing up and resisting in the country because we are in the province," Qaani said




    He was a uniformed member and leader of an organization that brags about being at war with us and killing us, he was in Iraq while our people were being killed and our embassy was attacked and was accompanying uniformed members and leaders of the groups carrying out those attacks, groups that his group helped to create, fund and direct.

    Quote Originally Posted by bv3 View Post
    I wonder, did sanctions have anything to do with that Jap minisub? (Oh, thats right, they did.).
    And it doesn't matter that they did, the Navy had a responsibility to defend Pearl Harbor against the minisub and the subsequent air-raid even though Congress had not issued an official declaration of war and neither had Japan.
    Trump is in the same position.

    Quote Originally Posted by bv3 View Post
    Congress is not commander in chief. The problem is that Trump is either a bad president or lacks the balls (both, likely)
    Congress has the power of the purse and many other relevant powers, Trump is doing the best he or anyone else could under the circumstances.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #52
    Sanctions are an act of war and thus, absent a declaration, should never be imposed. Furthermore, they are redundant: A declaration of war would obviously entail a cessation of commercial activity with an enemy nation--sanctions not required because they are redundant when a war has been declared.

    Do you recognize that Pirates and a General of foreign country are substantially different things? One wears a uniform, and is situated within the hierarchy of a state. The other wears not uniform and is not situated within the hierarchy of a state. Pirates have been open game since at least the 1700's.

    The minisub didn't just show up. In that instance sanctions invited another country to declare war on us. Which is why sanctions, redundant and unnecessary, are foolish: They present a highly aggressive posture towards another country, but without the ability to actually war until that country strikes first. Or, to put it another way, "Sanctions, and invitation extended to another country to land the physical first blow."
    Last edited by bv3; 01-16-2020 at 12:54 AM.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by bv3 View Post
    Sanctions are an act of war and thus, absent a declaration, should never be imposed. Furthermore, they are redundant: A declaration of war would obviously entail a cessation of commercial activity with an enemy nation--sanctions not required because they are redundant when a war has been declared.

    Do you recognize that Pirates and a General of foreign country are substantially different things? One wears a uniform, and is situated within the hierarchy of a state. The other wears not uniform and is not situated within the hierarchy of a state. Pirates have been open game since at least the 1700's.
    The Barbary Pirates were in fact part of the Barbary states and the Barbary states declared war against us just as Iran says that it is at war with us.
    Jefferson went to war with the Barbary states themselves and not just the Pirates.
    Watch the video, you need the education.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Why is it so hard for you to understand that an act of war creates a war?
    Well, of course an act of war can create a war, but it isn't the same as declaring a war.

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Not according to the constitution, which clearly you haven't actually read. I will say it again: the constitution clearly draws distinctions between declaring, levying and engaging-in. Sanctions are engaging in, but not declaring. That was Pauls objection to them.

    Now go away.
    le∑vy
    /ˈlevē/
    verb

    1.
    impose (a tax, fee, or fine).
    "a new tax could be levied on industry to pay for cleaning up contaminated land"

    2.
    ARCHAIC
    enlist (someone) for military service.
    "he sought to levy one man from each parish for service"

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Well, of course an act of war can create a war, but it isn't the same as declaring a war.
    Which doesn't matter as far as the President is concerned, he must protect our people in any war whether Congress fails in its paperwork duty or not.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  32. #57

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It is also the duty of the President as Commander in Chief to defend our people in any war.
    It's not his fault if Congress or a foreign power start one without an official declaration.
    There was never a declaration of war against the Barbary Pirates.
    This is all a Congressional problem.
    however, if our POTUS is a total idiot, Congress....even when misled, or befuddled is wiser. The wisdom of a crowd, thusly.

  34. #59
    A vote for sanctions on Iran is a vote for war against Iran. -- Ron Paul

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...a-Vote-For-War
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  35. #60
    Troll
    "It's probably the biggest hoax since Big Foot!" - Mitt Romney 1-16-2012 SC Debate

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