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Thread: Plane dumps fuel over school in emergency landing to LAX

  1. #1

    Plane dumps fuel over school in emergency landing to LAX

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51112630

    A passenger plane has dumped fuel over a school playground as it made an emergency landing at Los Angeles International Airport.

    At least 17 children and several adults are being treated for skin irritation and breathing problems.

    Fuel may be dumped in emergencies landings, but only over designated areas and at a high altitude, aviation rules stipulate.

    The Delta Airlines flight returned to the airport due to an engine issue.

    All of the injuries at Park Elementary School in Cudahy, some 16 miles (26km) east of the airport, are said to be minor.

    According to the Los Angeles Times, two classes were outside at the time the fuel was released.

    Elizabeth Alcantar, mayor of Cudahy, told the newspaper: "I'm very upset. This is an elementary school, these are small children."

    Delta Airlines confirmed in a statement that the passenger plane had released fuel to reduce its landing weight.

    Allen Kenitzer, a spokesman for the Federal Aviation Administration told Reuters news agency: "The FAA is thoroughly investigating the circumstances behind this incident. There are special fuel-dumping procedures for aircraft operating into and out of any major US airport.

    "These procedures call for fuel to be dumped over designated unpopulated areas, typically at higher altitudes so the fuel atomises and disperses before it reaches the ground."



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  3. #2
    Elizabeth Alcantar, mayor of Cudahy, told the newspaper: "I'm very upset. This is an elementary school, these are small children."
    A glaring lack of empathy on the part of the Mexifornian head of the local Peoples' Committee..

    I suppose that she thinks that this aircraft should have been steered to a designated crash zone.

    It probably doesn't matter to Ms. Alcantar that, barring the possibility that this crew went rogue or yellow, that they would dump fuel over the ocean if they thought they could spare the time and that they would fly at a higher altitude if they had the capability to climb to a higher altitude.

    One last edit: Given the choice to dump fuel and drench a hundred homeless, limbless, special needs orphans along with their puppies and kittens with jet fuel just to save my own life, I'm going to do it without hesitation.

    If there happens to be 300 passengers riding with me,....hmmm ........I guess I'd do the same thing.
    Last edited by sparebulb; 01-14-2020 at 08:30 PM.

  4. #3
    This should go in the Do Something Danke thread.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    This should go in the Do Something Danke thread.
    You want @Danke to dump fuel on school children?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You want @Danke to dump fuel on school children?
    He needs to accept responsibility and tell these kids he is sorry .

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    He needs to accept responsibility and tell these kids he is sorry .
    Or at least offer them a cigarette.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You want @Danke to dump fuel on school children?
    Pffft...he does that for fun.
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    One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. - Smedley Darlington Butler

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Pffft...he does that for fun.
    And to show off to girls, probably.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  11. #9
    Perfectly justified.

    Engine loss after attempting high speed climb out of LAX. By the time they got it sorted out that the engine was, in fact, suffering total failure, they were already lined up on final and descending.

    No pilot in his right mind would turn out of a stabilized final approach with one dead engine and possibly the other ready to fail as well, just to dump fuel in an approved "safe space".

    There are only two things we should fight for.
    One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. - Smedley Darlington Butler

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Perfectly justified.

    Engine loss after attempting high speed climb out of LAX. By the time they got it sorted out that the engine was, in fact, suffering total failure, they were already lined up on final and descending.

    No pilot in his right mind would turn out of a stabilized final approach with one dead engine and possibly the other ready to fail as well, just to dump fuel in an approved "safe space".

    No doubt we’ll eventually get more details on this. I’m no pilot, but the video does have the ground controllers asking them almost immediately if they need to dump fuel. Leaving LAX you go directly out over the ocean, so that’s a good place to dump. No idea when the pilots decided to start dumping. IIRC, dumping fuel is all about the landing weight specs for the plane, and too much weight on landing could result in structural damage to the plane.

    Pretty sure that jet can fly on one engine. No idea if the failure of the other engine was “imminent”.

    Last time I flew out over the pacific, the plane turned around after flying for an hour over the ocean. Immediately landing was not an option. Had to fly an hour back. Supposedly due to a fuel pump failure.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
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  13. #11
    “We’re not critical.”

    That may cause them some problems.

    The crew of Delta Flight 89 did not tell air traffic controllers they needed to dump fuel before doing so shortly before noon on Tuesday, Jan. 14, resulting in skin irritation and other minor injuries to more than 60 children and staffers at a handful of Los Angeles-area schools, a Federal Aviation Administration spokesman said on Wednesday.

    The FAA is “thoroughly investigating” the circumstances of the fuel dump, the statement said.

    “Air crews will typically notify air traffic control of an emergency and indicate they need to dump fuel,” the FAA said in a statement. “Air traffic controllers will then direct the plane to the appropriate fuel-dumping area.
    ...
    The Boeing 777-200, heading to Shanghai on Tuesday, experienced a compressor stall in its right engine as it climbed to 8,000 feet shortly after takeoff, according to audio of the air traffic radio communications.

    A compressor stall occurs when airflow into a jet engine is no longer smooth from the front to the rear, according to Aaron Green, a pilot with a major commercial airline. Compressor stalls can result in explosions and visible flames from the engine, possibly causing the engine to break apart, he said.
    ...
    To reduce weight, pilots are advised to dump fuel over non-populated areas and above 5,000 feet so the fuel will vaporize — or atomize — before hitting the ground, he said.

    “My guess is the airplane wasn’t doing what they wanted to, so they decided to dump fuel,” he said, adding that pilots do not need permission to release fuel, but typically advise air traffic control of their intentions.
    ...
    In the radio communication from Tuesday, the Delta flight crew is heard requesting an immediate return to LAX after the engine compressor stall was detected.

    “Bring you back to LAX immediately or do you need to hold to burn fuel?” an air traffic controller is heard asking. “You tell me what you need to do.”

    The pilot replied that there was a compressor stall, according to the audio.

    “We got it back under control,” the pilot said. “We’re going to come back to LAX. We’re not critical.”

    The controller then asked if the plane needed to dump fuel or “anything like that.”

    “Negative,” the pilot said.
    ...
    “The aircraft landed safely after a release of fuel, which was required as part of normal procedure to reach a safe landing weight,” the airline said. “Delta is in touch with Los Angeles World Airports and the LA County Fire Department, as well as community leaders, and shares concerns regarding reports of minor injuries to adults and children at schools in the area.”
    ...
    More: https://www.dailynews.com/2020/01/15...trol-faa-said/
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  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Pffft...he does that for fun.
    Final approach into LAX is mostly warehouses. And illegals, so yes, you are right. @TheTexan
    Last edited by Danke; 01-15-2020 at 09:02 PM.
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  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    “We’re not critical.”

    That may cause them some problems.
    In the heat of the moment, you can say anything. Single engine is not a non-critical procedure...you only have one good engine left and prayer.
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  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    No doubt we’ll eventually get more details on this. I’m no pilot, but the video does have the ground controllers asking them almost immediately if they need to dump fuel. Leaving LAX you go directly out over the ocean, so that’s a good place to dump. No idea when the pilots decided to start dumping. IIRC, dumping fuel is all about the landing weight specs for the plane, and too much weight on landing could result in structural damage to the plane.

    Pretty sure that jet can fly on one engine. No idea if the failure of the other engine was “imminent”.

    Last time I flew out over the pacific, the plane turned around after flying for an hour over the ocean. Immediately landing was not an option. Had to fly an hour back. Supposedly due to a fuel pump failure.
    I had a compressor stall on an A320 many years ago. Engine had to be left at idle power. I advocated for an immediate divert to Indianapolis. The captain wanted extended vectors to make sure we didn't miss anything in the check list...I'm like WTF, we have just one engine left and no ejection seat. I can land it there, daytime, good weather and a loooong runway.

    Swiss flight 111 delayed to dump fuel, and they crashed. Landing overweight does have its problems...but it is the crew's judgment.
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  17. #15
    That being said...what cause one of the engines to fail? Contaminated fuel? Bird strikes, etc?

    The other engine could fail at anytime without giving indications.

    I'll take dumping fuel over a high school over crashing landing into said high school.
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  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    In the heat of the moment, you can say anything. Single engine is not a non-critical procedure...you only have one good engine left and prayer.
    Like flying an F-16?

    Anyway, no doubt the “authorities”, ambulance chasers and media will key on those words.
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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Like flying an F-16?

    Anyway, no doubt the “authorities”, ambulance chasers and media will key on those words.
    I had an ejection seat that was 0/0. And I didn't have 300+ passengers depending on me.
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  21. #18
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  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Swiss flight 111 delayed to dump fuel, and they crashed.
    Ah hah, that was it...I knew there was a fairly recent incident that they dicked around vectoring offshore to dump fuel and ended up crashing and killing everybody, instead of getting it on the ground asap.

    There are only two things we should fight for.
    One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. - Smedley Darlington Butler

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    That being said...what cause one of the engines to fail? Contaminated fuel? Bird strikes, etc?

    The other engine could fail at anytime without giving indications.

    I'll take dumping fuel over a high school over crashing landing into said high school.
    As a passenger, I’m all for landing ASAP.

    My question on dumping fuel that close to the ground is how low do you have to be before you can create an air-fuel explosion with an ignition source on the ground?
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
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  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Ah hah, that was it...I knew there was a fairly recent incident that they dicked around vectoring offshore to dump fuel and ended up crashing and killing everybody, instead of getting it on the ground asap.

    Not many things get my hair to stand up, but if I got a fire, I land on any available concrete or gravel strip, which can be our only option over the polar flight.
    Last edited by Danke; 01-16-2020 at 04:00 AM.
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  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    As a passenger, I’m all for landing ASAP.

    My question on dumping fuel that close to the ground is how low do you have to be before you can create an air-fuel explosion with an ignition source on the ground?
    It is kerosene basically.
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  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Ah hah, that was it...I knew there was a fairly recent incident that they dicked around vectoring offshore to dump fuel and ended up crashing and killing everybody, instead of getting it on the ground asap.

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  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Ah hah, that was it...I knew there was a fairly recent incident that they dicked around vectoring offshore to dump fuel and ended up crashing and killing everybody, instead of getting it on the ground asap.
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Not many things get my hair to stand up, but if I got a fire, I land on any available concert or gravel strip, which can be our only option over the polar flight.
    Read a description of that one. Gruesome. Sounds like people were cremated while the plane was still in the air, before it hit the water.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
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    They are what they hate.” - B4L


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  29. #25
    Another story, I get a call from A flight attendant, he says "fire, fire, fire..."


    I immediately don my oxygen mask. And requested a lower altitude preparing for an immediate divert.

    We had a jumpseater from another airline in our cockpit. We sent him back to investigate.

    Turned out to just be residuals food particles in the oven that burned up a bit, that let out smoke when the fairy opened the oven.
    Last edited by Danke; 01-16-2020 at 01:11 PM.
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  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Final approach into LAX is mostly warehouses. And illegals, so yes, you are right. @TheTexan
    +rep keep up the good work
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  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Another story, I get a call from A flight attendant, he says "fire, fire, fire..."


    I immediately don my oxygen mask. And requested a lower altitude preparing for an immediate divert.

    We had a jumpseater from another airline in our cockpit. We sent him back to investigate.

    Turned out to just be residuals food particles in the oven that burned up a bit, that let out smoke when the fairly opened the oven.
    Was it a male flight attendant, or a female flight attendant?
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  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Was it a male flight attendant, or a female flight attendant?
    Originally Posted by Danke

    Another story, I get a call from A flight attendant, he says "fire, fire, fire..."
    ...
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Not many things get my hair to stand up, but if I got a fire, I land on any available concert or gravel strip, which can be our only option over the polar flight.
    In this case the safety checklists made them less safe.

    In accordance with the Swissair checklist 'In case of smoke of unknown origin', the crew shut off power to the cabin, which also turned off the recirculating fans in the cabin's ceiling. This allowed the fire to spread to the cockpit, eventually shutting off power to the aircraft's autopilot. At 22:24:28 AT (01:24:28 UTC), the crew informed Halifax that "we now must fly manually", followed by declaring an emergency. Ten seconds later, the crew declared an emergency again, saying "...and we are declaring emergency now, Swissair one eleven"; this was the last transmission received from Flight 111
    I agree, get on the ground as fast as possible.
    There are only two things we should fight for.
    One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. - Smedley Darlington Butler

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Not many things get my hair to stand up, but if I got a fire, I land on any available concert or gravel strip, which can be our only option over the polar flight.
    You hate musicians that much?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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