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Thread: 'The Afghanistan Papers' or RON PAUL WAS RIGHT!

  1. #1

    'The Afghanistan Papers' or RON PAUL WAS RIGHT!

    Rand Paul on Martha McCallum’s show (Fox news) to comment on this story.

    Rand wants hearings. Also discussing Saudis.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...ments-database
    THE AFGHANISTAN PAPERS
    A SECRET HISTORY OF THE WAR

    In a cache of previously unpublished interviews and memos, key insiders reveal what went wrong during the longest armed conflict in U.S. history

    By Craig Whitlock, Leslie Shapiro and Armand Emamdjomeh Dec. 9, 2019

    For 18 years, America has been at war in Afghanistan. As part of a government project to understand what went wrong, a federal agency interviewed more than 400 people who had a direct role in the conflict. In those interviews, generals, ambassadors, diplomats and other insiders offered firsthand accounts of the mistakes that have prolonged the war.

    The full, unsparing remarks and the identities of many of those who made them have never been made public — until now. After a three-year legal battle, The Washington Post won release of more than 2,000 pages of “Lessons Learned” interviews conducted by the Office of the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction. Those interviews reveal there was no consensus on the war’s objectives, let alone how to end the conflict.

    To augment the previously undisclosed interviews, The Post also obtained hundreds of confidential memos by former defense secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld from the National Security Archive, a nonprofit research institute. Known as “snowflakes,” the memos are brief instructions or comments that the Pentagon leader dictated to his underlings as the war unfolded.

    Together, the interviews and the Rumsfeld memos reveal a secret, unvarnished history of the conflict and offer new insights into how three presidential administrations have failed for nearly two decades to deliver on their promises to end the war.

    (much more) https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...ents-database/
    Last edited by Valli6; 12-10-2019 at 09:21 AM.



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  3. #2
    Rand was fantastic as usual. Thanks for giving us the heads up

  4. #3

    Michael Flynn was one of the persons interviewed!

    No wonder they went after him!
    Just from the first paragraph:
    Never mind not accompllshing our mission, but the severity of corruption in our own system, I think is just unb~lievable. The waste that I saw is unbelievable...

    ...There is a machinery that is behind what we do, and it keeps us participating in the conflict because It generates wealth all around and on both sides...there are more than two sides.
    Michael Flynn, Lessons Learned interview, 11/10/2015
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...el_ll_11102015

    Scroll to the bottom to see other interviews. There are 611 different interviews.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...ents-database/
    I noticed Petraus, Richard Haas...
    Last edited by Valli6; 12-09-2019 at 08:08 PM.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Valli6 View Post
    No wonder they went after him!
    Just from the first paragraph:


    Michael Flynn, Lessons Learned interview, 11/10/2015
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...el_ll_11102015

    Scroll to the bottom to see other interviews. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...ents-database/
    I noticed Petraus' name there too.
    After the impeachment charade Trump needs to pardon Flynn and give him his job back.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Trump needs to pardon Flynn and give him his job back.
    Why?
    "The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety."
    H. L. Mencken

  7. #6

    US misled public for 18 years about Afghanistan

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...ial-documents/

    confidential trove of government documents obtained by The Washington Post reveals that senior U.S. officials failed to tell the truth about the war in Afghanistan throughout the 18-year campaign, making rosy pronouncements they knew to be false and hiding unmistakable evidence the war had become unwinnable.
    Last edited by Pauls' Revere; 12-10-2019 at 09:56 PM.
    When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? - Miguel de Cervantes, (Don Quixote)

    Quote Originally Posted by Voluntarist View Post
    The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the Federal Reserve Notes of patriotic central banks

  8. #7
    The documents were generated by a federal project examining the root failures of the longest armed conflict in U.S. history. They include more than 2,000 pages of previously unpublished notes of interviews with people who played a direct role in the war, from generals and diplomats to aid workers and Afghan officials.
    When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? - Miguel de Cervantes, (Don Quixote)

    Quote Originally Posted by Voluntarist View Post
    The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the Federal Reserve Notes of patriotic central banks

  9. #8
    The U.S. government tried to shield the identities of the vast majority of those interviewed for the project and conceal nearly all of their remarks. The Post won release of the documents under the Freedom of Information Act after a three-year legal battle.
    More stories

    The Afghanistan Papers Part 1: At war with the truth
    Interviews and memos
    Explore the documents
    Key insiders speak bluntly about the failures of the longest conflict in U.S. history
    Post Reports
    ‘We didn’t know what the task was’
    Hear candid interviews with former ambassador Ryan Crocker and retired Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn
    The fight for the documents
    About the investigation
    It took three years and two federal lawsuits for The Post to pry loose 2,000 pages of interview records
    Part 1
    At war with the truth
    U.S. officials constantly said they were making progress. They were not, and they knew it.
    Part 2
    Stranded without a strategy
    Bush and Obama had polar-opposite plans to win the war. Both were destined to fail.
    Part 3
    Built to fail
    Despite vows the U.S. wouldn’t get mired in “nation-building,” it has wasted billions doing just that
    Part 4
    Consumed by corruption
    The U.S. flooded the country with money — then turned a blind eye to the graft it fueled
    Part 5
    Unguarded nation
    Afghan security forces, despite years of training, were dogged by incompetence and corruption
    Part 6
    Overwhelmed by opium
    The U.S. war on drugs in Afghanistan has imploded at nearly every turn
    More stories A visual timeline of the war Interviewees respond Share your story about the war

    In the interviews, more than 400 insiders offered unrestrained criticism of what went wrong in Afghanistan and how the United States became mired in nearly two decades of warfare.
    With a bluntness rarely expressed in public, the interviews lay bare pent-up complaints, frustrations and confessions, along with second-guessing and backbiting.
    When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? - Miguel de Cervantes, (Don Quixote)

    Quote Originally Posted by Voluntarist View Post
    The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the Federal Reserve Notes of patriotic central banks



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  11. #9
    “If the American people knew the magnitude of this dysfunction . . . 2,400 lives lost,” Lute added, blaming the deaths of U.S. military personnel on bureaucratic breakdowns among Congress, the Pentagon and the State Department. “Who will say this was in vain?”

    Since 2001, more than 775,000 U.S. troops have deployed to Afghanistan, many repeatedly. Of those, 2,300 died there and 20,589 were wounded in action, according to Defense Department figures.
    When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? - Miguel de Cervantes, (Don Quixote)

    Quote Originally Posted by Voluntarist View Post
    The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the Federal Reserve Notes of patriotic central banks

  12. #10
    If anything ever exemplified "war is a racket", Afghanistan is it.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    If anything ever exemplified "war is a racket", Afghanistan is it.
    I feel sick to my stomach.
    When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? - Miguel de Cervantes, (Don Quixote)

    Quote Originally Posted by Voluntarist View Post
    The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the Federal Reserve Notes of patriotic central banks

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    I feel sick to my stomach.
    Afghanistan.

    Where empires go to die.

  15. #13
    “If the American people knew the magnitude of this dysfunction . . . 2,400 lives lost,” Lute added, blaming the deaths of U.S. military personnel on bureaucratic breakdowns among Congress, the Pentagon and the State Department. “Who will say this was in vain?”

    And that is the case with every war and the crux of the problem as to why we can never end the damn militarist culture and war machine. In order to get there, people will have to admit that their loved died for nothing (not for "our freedumb") and permanently disabled vets have to be able to say their lives and bodies were ruined for no reason other than stupidity. As if the deaths and injuries aren't enough to psychologically come to terms with - which requires that "story" that isn't true - then you have to admit you were duped and played for fools and most people simply can't so the "story" goes on and it never ends.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    I feel sick to my stomach.
    But you knew it all along. It's just to hear THEM admit it.

    Other than the American revolution, has there been one war that the US should have engaged in? I say no.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    But you knew it all along. It's just to hear THEM admit it.

    Other than the American revolution, has there been one war that the US should have engaged in? I say no.
    1812.

    The Mexican war was arguable depending on which claims you believe.

    Some of the injun wars. Maybe.

    That's about it, it's possible we should have invaded Mexico over Pancho Villa but we just sent a "punitive expedition" instead.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Afghanistan.

    Where empires go to die.
    Speaking of empires, the British tried to control Afghanistan FOUR times over the span of about 150 years (IIRC). The fourth time only lasted about a week. So, snakes that they are, they saw another opportunity...

    September 12, 2001: British Intelligence Chiefs Fly to US; Delegation Visits CIA and Advises to Concentrate on Afghanistan, Not Iraq

    Despite the restrictions on air travel following the previous day’s attacks, one private plane is allowed to fly from Britain to the United States. On it are Sir Richard Dearlove, the head of the British secret intelligence service (MI6), and Eliza Manningham-Buller, the deputy chief of Britain’s domestic intelligence service, MI5. In his 2007 book At the Center of the Storm, CIA Director George Tenet will admit, “I still don’t know how they got flight clearance into the country.” Manningham-Buller and Dearlove dine for an hour-and-a-half with a group of American intelligence officials at the CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia. [Tenet, 2007, pp. 173-174; BBC, 12/4/2007] In addition to Tenet, the US officials at the dinner include James Pavitt and his deputy from the CIA’s Directorate for Operations; A. B. “Buzzy” Krongard, the CIA’s executive director; Cofer Black, the director of the CIA’s Counterterrorist Center; Tyler Drumheller, the chief of the CIA’s European Division; the chief of the CIA’s Near East Division; and Thomas Pickard, the acting director of the FBI. Also part of the British delegation is David Manning, Prime Minister Tony Blair’s foreign policy adviser, who was already in the US before 9/11. [Salon, 7/2/2007] The British offer condolences and their full support. The Americans say they are already certain that al-Qaeda was behind the 9/11 attacks, having recognized names on passenger lists of the hijacked flights. They also say they believe the attacks are not yet over. [Tenet, 2007, pp. 174; BBC, 12/4/2007] According to Drumheller, Manning says, “I hope we can all agree that we should concentrate on Afghanistan and not be tempted to launch any attacks on Iraq.” Tenet replies: “Absolutely, we all agree on that. Some might want to link the issues, but none of us wants to go that route.” [Newsweek, 10/30/2006; Salon, 7/2/2007; Guardian, 8/4/2007]

    http://www.historycommons.org/timeli...e_911_timeline



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    1812.

    The Mexican war was arguable depending on which claims you believe.

    Some of the injun wars. Maybe.

    That's about it, it's possible we should have invaded Mexico over Pancho Villa but we just sent a "punitive expedition" instead.
    Once again, my lack of knowledge about history. You're probably right and I didn't even think about that. Anything vs the British was necessary. The Mexicans, I dunno. Was that when the Alamo happened?


  21. #18
    “Who will say this was in vain?”: Almost none of the people who should. It's truly horrifying that 2,300 dead and 20,589 wounded in a war that has left us less secure and economically worse off hasn't provoked more skepticism. Out of sight, out of mind I guess.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    Once again, my lack of knowledge about history. You're probably right and I didn't even think about that. Anything vs the British was necessary. The Mexicans, I dunno. Was that when the Alamo happened?

    The Alamo happened when Texas seceded from Mexico, the Mexican war happened when Mexico supposedly invaded Texas after it joined the union, some claim it was a lie that was used to excuse taking more territory.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The Alamo happened when Texas seceded from Mexico, the Mexican war happened when Mexico supposedly invaded Texas after it joined the union, some claim it was a lie that was used to excuse taking more territory.
    What territory was gained? As long as the war happened, I'm kinda sorry they didn't grab more of Mexico so we could retire there without cartels, lol.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    What territory was gained? As long as the war happened, I'm kinda sorry they didn't grab more of Mexico so we could retire there without cartels, lol.
    Everything between Texas and the Pacific.
    Except for a small strip of south west Arizona that was purchased later for a railroad line.
    I wish they had taken Baja at least, then Kalifornia wouldn't have a land border with Mexico and they probably would have taken the small strip that connects Baja to Mexico and Arizona would have a beach.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Everything between Texas and the Pacific.
    Except for a small strip of south west Arizona that was purchased later for a railroad line.
    I wish they had taken Baja at least, then Kalifornia wouldn't have a land border with Mexico and they probably would have taken the small strip that connects Baja to Mexico and Arizona would have a beach.
    Oh, that's where all that acquisition came from? Did I hear that US actually purchased it all after defeating Mexico or was it just taken/conquered?

    Mexico could be a paradise. Lost opportunity there.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    Oh, that's where all that acquisition came from? Did I hear that US actually purchased it all after defeating Mexico or was it just taken/conquered?

    Mexico could be a paradise. Lost opportunity there.
    We did pay for it.
    But it was a forced sale.

    Most other countries wouldn't have paid a penny.


    The problem with Mexico has always been Mexicans and always will be unless they fix their cultural issues.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  27. #24
    See, how do you get all of these people to stop believing in the "story" because it's very powerful and intertwined with people's identities and belief systems:




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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    See, how do you get all of these people to stop believing in the "story" because it's very powerful and intertwined with people's identities and belief systems:

    You can declare victory and leave.

    Trump is trying to arrange that.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We did pay for it.
    But it was a forced sale.

    Most other countries wouldn't have paid a penny.


    The problem with Mexico has always been Mexicans and always will be unless they fix their cultural issues.

    I like a lot about their culture, though, like the importance of family and siestas. Good food, too. And the Spanish architecture, music and skilled crafts. Such a shame that it's mired in corruption and violence.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    I like a lot about their culture, though, like the importance of family and siestas. Good food, too. And the Spanish architecture, music and skilled crafts. Such a shame that it's mired in corruption and violence.
    There is usually some good in all but the worst cultures and there are definitely worse cultures than Mexican culture, but there are definitely better cultures.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    “If the American people knew the magnitude of this dysfunction . . . 2,400 lives lost,” Lute added, blaming the deaths of U.S. military personnel on bureaucratic breakdowns among Congress, the Pentagon and the State Department. “Who will say this was in vain?”

    And that is the case with every war and the crux of the problem as to why we can never end the damn militarist culture and war machine. In order to get there, people will have to admit that their loved died for nothing (not for "our freedumb") and permanently disabled vets have to be able to say their lives and bodies were ruined for no reason other than stupidity. As if the deaths and injuries aren't enough to psychologically come to terms with - which requires that "story" that isn't true - then you have to admit you were duped and played for fools and most people simply can't so the "story" goes on and it never ends.
    "The Patriarch"

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You can declare victory and leave.

    Trump is trying to arrange that.
    Yeah, and the war party keeps stopping him. Maybe this expose will give him what he needs to finally do it.

    Regarding that video, I mean the whole, never ending cycle of war and the stories that are told to keep the cannon fodder and money coming. It's just impossible to stop without a lot of people's beliefs being shattered.

    You know, our founders didn't want standing armies. I think wars should be fought with mercenaries and paid for by the corporations who intend on benefiting from them. They'd still be wrong and crimes against humanity but, at least, the BS could be dispensed with.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    Yeah, and the war party keeps stopping him. Maybe this expose will give him what he needs to finally do it.

    Regarding that video, I mean the whole, never ending cycle of war and the stories that are told to keep the cannon fodder and money coming. It's just impossible to stop without a lot of people's beliefs being shattered.

    You know, our founders didn't want standing armies. I think wars should be fought with mercenaries and paid for by the corporations who intend on benefiting from them. They'd still be wrong and crimes against humanity but, at least, the BS could be dispensed with.
    Some of the founders wanted a standing army to be the backbone of our forces and to train the militia/wartime volunteers.
    I agree with that.

    The foreign wars have to stop, America was never supposed to go abroad in search of monsters to destroy.

    If we do need to on occasion it should be like the Barbary Pirate expeditions and we should come home immediately. (that's another war we may have needed to have)
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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