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Thread: Trump Is First to Use PATRIOT Act to Detain a Man Forever

  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    If the government says 'we will hold him until we decide not to hold him' that is indefinite.
    And nobody here said they should do that, many suggestions were made of how he could be released but not released here.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    He donated at least once AFTER they were designated terrorists.
    The "terrorists" he's been accused of donating to...

    http://www.nbcnews.com/id/20250689/n.../#.XernGOhKiUk

    Little hard evidence?
    There is little other hard evidence involving Padilla. Thousands of hours of FBI wiretap intercepts from 1993 to 2001 include numerous conversations of Hassoun and Jayyousi, but Padilla’s voice is heard on only seven.

    There is also little direct evidence connecting Hassoun and Jayyousi, both 45, to any specific acts of violence or specific killings. The victims, according to prosecutors, would include the Russian army in Chechnya, Serbian forces in Kosovo and other military groups around the world.

    Evidence does include numerous checks written by Hassoun and Jayyousi to various organizations that prosecutors say were involved in terrorism, such as the Global Relief Foundation and American Worldwide Relief.

    Swartz said Hassoun gave thousands of dollars to relief organizations and staged fundraisers at South Florida mosques because of repeated atrocities directed against Muslims.

    “Their passion was relief,” Swartz said of Hassoun and others. “There is no talk of terrorism or premeditated murder.”


    So you've got a couple of people donating money to relief organizations in Chenya and Serbia conflicts that have nothing to do with the United States and allegations by prosecutors that these charities are linked to terrorism. That's a far cry from the "All sides admit he donated to terrorism" claim you made.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  4. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    And nobody here said they should do that, many suggestions were made of how he could be released but not released here.
    What should the government do with him right now?
    "The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."
    -George Orwell, "Notes on nationalism"

  5. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    So let me get this straight. Mr. Hassoun came here legally, people in this thread have falsely claimed he came here illegally because they either didn't bother fact checking or felt saying he came here illegally
    That response was sarcastically written and specifically directed at theCount who deals in sarcasm. I treat people as they treat me. I also said he served at time at San Quentin, which Hassoun didn't. Yes I was loose with the facts.

    Regardless, he is not American. Serving time in prison doesn't make someone an American. Send him back..
    ...

  6. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    Regardless, he is not American.
    There's also no evidence that he's a terrorist or a supporter of terrorists or that he hates America or wants to kill Americans. If your position is "Let's deport anyone whenever we have some possible chance to deport him and keep that person indefinitely detained until we can do so." then okay. But the "Everyone who disagrees with my position wants the enemies of America to be allowed to stay and plot to kill people" argument batted around by some (and I'm not saying you are one making that argument) just doesn't fit the facts of this case. Republican congressman Peter King is more of a supporter of terrorism than this man is.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  7. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    What should the government do with him right now?
    Release him one of the places suggested that isn't in America.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    There's also no evidence that he's a terrorist or a supporter of terrorists or that he hates America or wants to kill Americans. If your position is "Let's deport anyone whenever we have some possible chance to deport him and keep that person indefinitely detained until we can do so." then okay. But the "Everyone who disagrees with my position wants the enemies of America to be allowed to stay and plot to kill people" argument batted around by some (and I'm not saying you are one making that argument) just doesn't fit the facts of this case. Republican congressman Peter King is more of a supporter of terrorism than this man is.
    All that may be true, but he served his time. He is not an American. Send him back. I am pretty solid here as are you, so I will agree to disagree.
    ...

  9. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    True. The man in question will die eventually. And of course there is actual indefinite and defacto indefinite. What @Swordsmyth is ignoring is that the circumstances dictate this man will be held indefinitely despite the fact that he came here legally and there has been no evidence put forward that he is some invader seeking to kill people. Maybe he is. Maybe he isn't. It's kind of like the Chinese Uyghurs that were indefinitely detained.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...terror/584107/

    The whole "release him somewhere else" argument is nothing but pure smoke and mirrors. This fact becomes evident if you examine the "choices" they've offered for where else to release the guy.

    Forcibly release him in Gaza or Lebanon? These people claim to respect national sovereignty. It's a big part of their "closed borders" argument. Apparently they respect it, except when it suits their purpose not to. Besides, neither of these is ever, EVER going to actually happen and they know damn well that they aren't.

    The other two suggestions that I've seen are so farcical as to be unworthy of even mentioning, but I'll mention them just to be thorough. Cast him adrift in a boat? Release him in Antarctica? Aside from being utterly ludicrous, given the state of Hassoun's health they would amount to a virtual death sentence.

    Ultimately what the "release him somewhere else" gang are doing is offering up a Hobson's choice. Since there is no realistic, credible option to release him elsewhere, the only remaining option is indefinite detention. Being that there's no way they could reasonably be unaware of this fact, they absolutely are supporting indefinite detention, at least in this particular case, or, at best just don't care one way or the other if Hassoun is ever released.

    In spite of the fact that the actual particulars of Hassoun's case have been posted several times, they continue to be falsely reported by some.

    Hassoun was NOT here illegally, he was in full compliance with existing immigration law. He was falsely charged with overstaying his visa, falsely convicted and then ordered expelled from the US as a result of that conviction. Legal documents reveal that the feds were attempting to get him to act as an informant, and it's likely that the bogus immigration charges were an attempt to coerce him to do so. The feds are well known among the pro-gun community for attempting such things with gun owners and there are likewise a great many cases of them doing the same to non-violent drug offenders. It's not even a stretch to imagine the same happening here. It's possible that his criminal charges were an attempt by the feds to ratchet up the pressure when he still refused to play ball. Not proven of course, but well within the bounds of credibility.

    Criminally Hassoun was charged for making donations to certain charities that the feds decided they didn't like. Only 1 donation happened after 911 and the PATRIOT Act and Hassoun was not convicted of anything related to that particular donation. Leaving aside the fact that the "crimes" he was convicted of occurred long before 911 and the PA, opening the possibility of an ex post facto conviction, these "offenses" were purely malum prohibitum ("evil" only by virtue of government edict) in nature. The feds declared certain charities evil supporters of terrorists and anyone who donated to them a criminal. But those were the same feds who sent out the MIAC Report which warned local law enforcement that Christians, constitutionalists, Ron Paul supporters and others posed a serious threat as potential domestic terrorists. We're supposed to uncritically accept THEIR word on this?

    Hell, the judge in Hassoun's criminal case even noted that in spite of the fact that the feds had him under constant surveillance for a decade, they'd been unable to produce any evidence that he'd caused any material harm to any American anywhere or the US government, or posed any kind of threat to either.

    There are so many red flags raised by this case it's not even funny. There's no credible reason to refuse to just release this guy to his family and be done with it other than a vindictive hatred of immigrants, or muslims, or both. He's not threat to anyone as far as can be determined.
    Last edited by CCTelander; 12-06-2019 at 06:59 PM.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul



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  11. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Forcibly release him in Gaza or Lebanon? These people claim to respect national sovereignty. It's a big part of their "closed borders" argument. Apparently they respect it, except when it suits their purpose not to. Besides, neither of these is ever, EVER going to actually happen and they know damn well that they aren't.
    LOL
    It's part and parcel of controlled borders, you throw people out of the US who don't belong here and put them where they belong.

    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    The other two suggestions that I've seen are so farcical as to be unworthy of even mentioning, but I'll mention them just to be thorough. Cast him adrift in a boat? Release him in Antarctica? Aside from being utterly ludicrous, given the state of Hassoun's health they would amount to a virtual death sentence.

    Ultimately what the "release him somewhere else" gang are doing is offering up a Hobson's choice. Since there is no realistic, credible option to release him elsewhere, the only remaining option is indefinite detention. Being that there's no way they could reasonably be unaware of this fact, they absolutely are supporting indefinite detention, at least in this particular case, or, at best just don't care one way or the other if Hassoun is ever released.
    If we put him in a boat in the Mediterranean the EU will send a boat to pick him up and you left out putting him on an unclaimed island.
    And nobody is saying that any of the options suggested will happen, we are saying they are what SHOULD happen.
    He isn't going to be released here either so does that invalidate your position?
    The best thing to do is to use diplomatic pressure, force or stealth to dump him in either Gaza or Lebanon and releasing him here is not the correct thing to do.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    The whole "release him somewhere else" argument is nothing but pure smoke and mirrors. This fact becomes evident if you examine the "choices" they've offered for where else to release the guy.

    Forcibly release him in Gaza or Lebanon? These people claim to respect national sovereignty. It's a big part of their "closed borders" argument. Apparently they respect it, except when it suits their purpose not to. Besides, neither of these is ever, EVER going to actually happen and they know damn well that they aren't.

    The other two suggestions that I've seen are so farcical as to be unworthy of even mentioning, but I'll mention them just to be thorough. Cast him adrift in a boat? Release him in Antarctica? Aside from being utterly ludicrous, given the state of Hassoun's health they would amount to a virtual death sentence.

    Ultimately what the "release him somewhere else" gang are doing is offering up a Hobson's choice. Since there is no realistic, credible option to release him elsewhere, the only remaining option is indefinite detention. Being that there's no way they could reasonably be unaware of this fact, they absolutely are supporting indefinite detention, at least in this particular case, or, at best just don't care one way or the other if Hassoun is ever released.

    In spite of the fact that the actual particulars of Hassoun's case have been posted several times, they continue to be falsely reported by some.

    Hassoun was NOT here illegally, he was in full compliance with existing immigration law. He was falsely charged with overstaying his visa, falsely convicted and then ordered expelled from the US as a result of that conviction. Legal documents reveal that the feds were attempting to get him to act as an informant, and it's likely that the bogus immigration charges were an attempt to coerce him to do so. The feds are well known among the pro-gun community for attempting such things with gun owners and there are likewise a great many cases of them doing the same to non-violent drug offenders. It's not even a stretch to imagine the same happening here. It's possible that his criminal charges were an attempt by the feds to ratchet up the pressure when he still refused to play ball. Not proven of course, but well within the bounds of credibility.

    Criminally Hassoun was charged for making donations to certain charities that the feds decided they didn't like. Only 1 donation happened after 911 and the PATRIOT Act and Hassoun was not convicted of anything related to that particular donation. Leaving aside the fact that the "crimes" he was convicted of occurred long before 911 and the PA, opening the possibility of an ex post facto conviction, these "offenses" were purely malum prohibitum ("evil" only by virtue of government edict) in nature. The feds declared certain charities evil supporters of terrorists and anyone who donated to them a criminal. But those were the same feds who sent out the MIAC Report which warned local law enforcement that Christians, constitutionalists, Ron Paul supporters and others posed a serious threat as potential domestic terrorists. We're supposed to uncritically accept THEIR word on this?

    Hell, the judge in Hassoun's criminal case even noted that in spite of the fact that the feds had him under constant surveillance for a decade, they'd been unable to produce any evidence that he'd caused any material harm to any American anywhere or the US government, or posed any kind of threat to either.

    There are so many red flags raised by this case it's not even funny. There's no credible reason to refuse to just release this guy to his family and be done with it other than a vindictive hatred of immigrants, or muslims, or both. He's not threat to anyone as far as can be determined.
    Good points. Something else that the other side should consider. Legal aliens could get criminally shaken down like this to turn against American citizens by any government with an axe to grind.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  13. #251
    I think we should use our considerable influence and power to force some other nation, preferably his HOME NATION to take him. Or since Justin Trudeau wants to continually prattle on about human rights and all of that force Canada to take him.
    “When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank. You tell me that if I take the deposits from the bank and annul its charter I shall ruin ten thousand families. That may be true, gentlemen, but that is your sin! Should I let you go on, you will ruin fifty thousand families, and that would be my sin! You are a den of vipers and thieves. I have determined to rout you out, and by the Eternal, I will rout you out!”
    ― Andrew Jackson

  14. #252
    I don't believe in life in prison on principle (I work in corrections and I see what it does to people) and find that if we believe someone is too dangerous to ever be released into society we should execute them which is infinitely more humane than life imprisonment.
    “When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank. You tell me that if I take the deposits from the bank and annul its charter I shall ruin ten thousand families. That may be true, gentlemen, but that is your sin! Should I let you go on, you will ruin fifty thousand families, and that would be my sin! You are a den of vipers and thieves. I have determined to rout you out, and by the Eternal, I will rout you out!”
    ― Andrew Jackson

  15. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Release him one of the places suggested that isn't in America.
    I agree with you, he should be covertly released into Israel.
    "The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."
    -George Orwell, "Notes on nationalism"

  16. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnGalt1225 View Post
    I don't believe in life in prison on principle (I work in corrections and I see what it does to people) and find that if we believe someone is too dangerous to ever be released into society we should execute them which is infinitely more humane than life imprisonment.
    Unfortunately prisons tend to be places to learn to be better criminals than to be better citizens.

  17. #255
    Adham is still being detained.
    "The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."
    -George Orwell, "Notes on nationalism"

  18. #256
    One of his heroes, highly respected legal scholar Alan Dershowitz, supported torture of suspected terrorists too if recall correctly.

    Deputy AG and FBI dir he appointed had cited 'white terrorism' as biggest terror threat in US earlier.

    Are foreign policy related directives turning inwards under MAGA leadership?



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  20. #257
    Adham was eventually freed in July of 2020, two years and nine months after he was "released" from prison and placed in indefinite detention following the end of his prison sentence. At the time of his deportation, the Trump administration was still attempting to claim that he was a threat and should be held indefinitely on the basis of claims made by another detainee.

    https://www.uticaod.com/story/specia...urt/113459372/



    He was deported to Rwanda.

    https://www.ktpress.rw/2020/07/how-r...-amin-hassoun/
    "The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."
    -George Orwell, "Notes on nationalism"

  21. #258
    An alternative would be to release him in the US and give him 48 hours to leave the country. To anywhere but here.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!

  22. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Adham was eventually freed in July of 2020, two years and nine months after he was "released" from prison and placed in indefinite detention following the end of his prison sentence. At the time of his deportation, the Trump administration was still attempting to claim that he was a threat and should be held indefinitely on the basis of claims made by another detainee.

    https://www.uticaod.com/story/specia...urt/113459372/



    He was deported to Rwanda.

    https://www.ktpress.rw/2020/07/how-r...-amin-hassoun/
    So I guess Zippypinhead was wrong and he wasn't detained forever?

  23. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    So I guess Zippypinhead was wrong and he wasn't detained forever?
    A judge rejected the Trump administration's argument that Adham was a threat and ordered that he be released in the US.
    "The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."
    -George Orwell, "Notes on nationalism"

  24. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    A judge rejected the Trump administration's argument that Adham was a threat and ordered that he be released in the US.
    It was your voting choice Obama that started detention of citizens without trial.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  25. #262
    Another great Zippy thread.

    Free Zippy.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

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