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Thread: MA-New law will allow seizure of your vehicle if untaxed vape products found

  1. #1

    Exclamation MA-New law will allow seizure of your vehicle if untaxed vape products found

    Pending Ban on Flavored E-Cigarettes in Massachusetts Authorizes Forfeiture of Vapers' Cars

    https://reason.com/2019/11/14/pendin...f-vapers-cars/

    The bill, which the state House passed yesterday, says police may seize vehicles in which they find untaxed vaping products.

    JACOB SULLUM | 11.14.2019 1:55 PM

    According to the Institute for Justice, Massachusetts has "the worst civil forfeiture laws in the country." It looks like state legislators are about to outdo themselves.

    The Massachusetts House of Representatives yesterday approved a bill that would ban flavored e-cigarettes, impose a 75 percent excise tax on "electronic nicotine delivery systems" (including e-liquids as well as devices), and authorize forfeiture of cars driven by vapers caught with "untaxed" products. The House approved H4183 by a vote of 127 to 31, and the state Senate is expected to consider it next week.

    An "emergency" ban that Gov. Charlie Baker (R) imposed on all vaping products in September will expire on December 24. This bill permanently bans "flavored tobacco products," including menthol cigarettes as well as vaping liquids that taste or smell like anything other than tobacco. It does not apply to hookah bars or marijuana vapes.

    Rep. John Mahoney (D–Worcester), chairman of the Joint Committee on Public Health, claims e-cigarette flavors "were created and designed for one reason only—for young people to become addicted to nicotine and to become lifelong users." Since adults who have switched from smoking to vaping overwhelmingly prefer flavors other than tobacco, that statement is either shockingly ill-informed or brazenly mendacious.

    Once their preferred flavors are no longer legally available, some of those vapers may go back to smoking, a far more dangerous habit, while others may buy potentially tainted pods or e-liquids on the black market. Or they might buy flavored e-liquids in states where they are still legal and bring them back to Massachusetts. But vapers who try to find ways around the ban should be aware of the potential penalties.

    The bill says "a person who knowingly purchases or possesses an electronic nicotine delivery system not manufactured, purchased or imported by a licensed electronic nicotine delivery system distributor or licensed electronic nicotine delivery system retailer shall…be subject to a civil penalty of not more than $5,000 for the first offense and not more than $25,000 for a second or subsequent offense." But that's not the worst of it.

    The bill also says a police officer who "discovers an untaxed electronic nicotine
    delivery system in the possession of a person who is not a licensed or commissioner-authorized electronic nicotine delivery system distributor" may seize both the product and the "receptacle" in which it is found, "including, but not limited to, a motor vehicle, boat or airplane in which the electronic nicotine delivery systems are contained or transported." Such property "shall be turned over to the commissioner [of revenue] and shall be forfeited to the commonwealth." The commissioner may then sell the seized property and "deposit the proceeds in the General Fund."

    Dan Alban, a senior attorney at the Institute for Justice who has been fighting forfeiture abuse for years, was astonished by this provision. "This is completely insane and endangers the property rights of anyone in Massachusetts," he says. "Even if you don't have an 'untaxed electronic nicotine delivery system,' are you going to search every passenger in your vehicle? It is as though someone wanted to highlight the indefensibility of forfeiture via reductio ad absurdum. Does 'receptacle' include a house as well?" Alban says the provision's only redeeming feature is that the proceeds from forfeitures would go into the state's general fund, rather than the budgets of the police departments that seize the property.

    While both fines and asset forfeiture could be deployed against distributors of newly illicit vaping products, they apply to consumers as well. "A resident of the commonwealth shall be liable for the collection of the excise on all electronic nicotine delivery systems that are in the resident's possession at any time and upon which the excise has not been paid by an electronic nicotine delivery system distributor or electronic nicotine delivery system retailer," the bill says. "There shall be a presumption that the excise on the electronic nicotine delivery system has not been paid and that the resident is liable for such excise if a resident, upon demand, fails to produce or exhibit to the commissioner or the commissioner's authorized representative an invoice or sales receipt by an electronic nicotine delivery system distributor or electronic nicotine delivery system retailer for an electronic nicotine delivery system in the resident's possession."

    In other words, a vaper is presumed to be in possession of "an untaxed electronic nicotine delivery system," which makes his car subject to forfeiture, unless he has receipts that prove otherwise. And in the case of newly illegal vaping products purchased out of state or on the black market, he will have no such proof.

    Under this bill, unapproved vaping products would be treated like illegal drugs, possession of which is enough to justify forfeiture of the vehicles in which they are found. Massachusetts is poised to deprive vapers of the harm-reducing products they used to quit smoking, then steal their cars if they dare to defy that unjust and irrational edict.

    "Over the objections of most local lawmakers, Massachusetts voters voted to end marijuana prohibition three years ago," says Gregory Conley, president of the American Vaping Association. "Now it appears that legislators are searching for a new drug war to fight. No adult should have to travel with receipts in their pockets at all times under the threat of having their vehicle seized by police for daring to use a flavored nicotine product. Based on what we know from the disastrous war on marijuana, inevitably it will be poor and marginalized communities that will feel the pain from laws like this. This is what happens when you have legislators who not only don't understand what they are banning but are also insistent upon rushing a bill into law."



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  3. #2
    Good thing I don't live in MA and vape or else this would affect me.
    "Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."

    Calvin Coolidge

  4. #3
    Remember what they used to do to horse thieves?

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Globalist View Post
    Good thing I don't live in MA and vape or else this would affect me.
    I think vapping is lame asfk , but there is a thing called natural rights, Natural Rights dictates that our decisions
    to make dumb ones or smart ones are our own , not the government's. :

    ''First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.''

  6. #5
    And if that doesn't work they can always strangle you on the sidewalk.
    "The Patriarch"

  7. #6
    $#@!hole , sounds like saud.
    Do something Danke

  8. #7
    A huge portion of the population drive vehicles that are worth less than they owe. The person driving the vehicle doesn't own the vehicle.
    Truth is Fallacy, Fallacy is Evil.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    A huge portion of the population drive vehicles that are worth less than they owe. The person driving the vehicle doesn't own the vehicle.
    The banks will still insist on getting paid, regardless of the disposition of the collateral.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Ryan
    In Washington you can see them everywhere: the Parasites and baby Stalins sucking the life out of a once-great nation.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Remember what they used to do to horse thieves?
    Yes, but in what way are you tying this together?

  12. #10
    I'm looking through our Bill of Rights and they Constitution in general trying to determine the parts that
    they don't incinerate with this tyrannical, stifling, asset grab.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by fedupinmo View Post
    The banks will still insist on getting paid, regardless of the disposition of the collateral.
    The banks have the auto for collateral. They have a right to repossess once payments stop.
    Truth is Fallacy, Fallacy is Evil.

  14. #12
    If the car is registered, it is the state's car, not yours. That's why they can pass arbitrary rules like this one to seize a car. It's not your car. It's their car.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

    Israel, under control of the Crown and, ultimately, the Vatican, own the USA. If you don't know this by now....

    Talk to people about liberty. You won't find it on websites, you won't find it in politicians.

    Visiting the Outer Banks of NC?
    Outer Banks NC Fishing Boat Rentals

  15. #13

  16. #14

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Are you trying to say that the bank will try to repo from the cops?

    LOL, that's funny, you're a funny guy.
    Sure. Yes. I think a lawyer will file suit for the automobile and the bank will get it back.
    Truth is Fallacy, Fallacy is Evil.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    Sure. Yes. I think a lawyer will file suit for the automobile and the bank will get it back.
    That's not how it works.

    If the cops have seized the vehicle (as opposed to impounding it) and there is money owed, you remain on the hook to make payments until such time as the cops decide to auction it off.

    At auction, any proceeds are paid to the lien-holder.

    If the car sells for less than what is owed (which is almost always the case) you remain liable pay the balance.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    That's not how it works.

    If the cops have seized the vehicle (as opposed to impounding it) and there is money owed, you remain on the hook to make payments until such time as the cops decide to auction it off.

    At auction, any proceeds are paid to the lien-holder.

    If the car sells for less than what is owed (which is almost always the case) you remain liable pay the balance.
    Okay. Lack of payment would put you in default. Default would justify repossession. Not making payment would be a civil issue that could be remedied by paying what is owed or declaring bankruptcy.

    I wonder what happens if you transport a passenger that has illegal vape equipment on them.
    Truth is Fallacy, Fallacy is Evil.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    Okay. Lack of payment would put you in default. Default would justify repossession. Not making payment would be a civil issue that could be remedied by paying what is owed or declaring bankruptcy.

    I wonder what happens if you transport a passenger that has illegal vape equipment on them.
    The best way to find out would be to figure out who the lawmakers are pushing this bill, wait for the bill to pass, plant illegal vaping equipment on a passenger in their car and report them to the cops.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Just like it is the state's income and the state's real estate and the state's children.
    And all of it is voluntarily via one's own voluntary signatures and voluntary filings.

    People need to learn what the words we use mean. Registration. Registration. REGIS. Registration of something is turning over ownership of the thing to the KING/QUEEN, or whatever the equivalent authority in the area representing that sovereign is.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

    Israel, under control of the Crown and, ultimately, the Vatican, own the USA. If you don't know this by now....

    Talk to people about liberty. You won't find it on websites, you won't find it in politicians.

    Visiting the Outer Banks of NC?
    Outer Banks NC Fishing Boat Rentals

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by fedupinmo View Post
    The banks will still insist on getting paid, regardless of the disposition of the collateral.
    Perhaps the real intent is to push people back to riding bikes or horses? Or walking? Nah, couldnt be that simple. I think there are several real goals here. First, bolster their own funds by passing yet another law that converts an honest person into a criminal with the flip of a pen. Next is it destroys a persons ability to be independent and travel at will. One of their agendas is to push for all transportation to be forcibly shoved towards public transit systems, where they can deny Dissenters like us here the ability to get on a bus to go to work.

    Next, more Fearmongering and Propaganda. Blah blah blah vaping deaths be afraid protect us so on and so on. So what really happened? Morons tried to vape edible CBD products. Sure, cheeseburgers can sometimes taste great, but would you roll one up and smoke it directly into your lungs? Geez, I wonder why they got sick! They are making the cause sound much much more complicated by saying Vitamin E Acetate, which basically means you were supposed to $#@!ing eat it, not smoke it.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Perhaps the real intent is to push people back to riding bikes or horses? Or walking? Nah, couldnt be that simple. I think there are several real goals here. First, bolster their own funds by passing yet another law that converts an honest person into a criminal with the flip of a pen. Next is it destroys a persons ability to be independent and travel at will. One of their agendas is to push for all transportation to be forcibly shoved towards public transit systems, where they can deny Dissenters like us here the ability to get on a bus to go to work.

    Next, more Fearmongering and Propaganda. Blah blah blah vaping deaths be afraid protect us so on and so on. So what really happened? Morons tried to vape edible CBD products. Sure, cheeseburgers can sometimes taste great, but would you roll one up and smoke it directly into your lungs? Geez, I wonder why they got sick! They are making the cause sound much much more complicated by saying Vitamin E Acetate, which basically means you were supposed to $#@!ing eat it, not smoke it.
    You must spread some yada yada....
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

    Israel, under control of the Crown and, ultimately, the Vatican, own the USA. If you don't know this by now....

    Talk to people about liberty. You won't find it on websites, you won't find it in politicians.

    Visiting the Outer Banks of NC?
    Outer Banks NC Fishing Boat Rentals

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    You must spread some yada yada....
    Covered.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #23
    https://boston.cbslocal.com/2019/11/...-products-tax/
    BOSTON (AP) — Massachusetts lawmakers passed a groundbreaking ban Thursday on the sale of flavored tobacco and vaping products, including menthol cigarettes.

    The bill would also place a 75% excise tax on vaping products and require health insurers, including the state’s Medicaid program, to cover tobacco cessation counseling.

    “This nation-leading step will save lives,” Democratic House Speaker Robert DeLeo said.

    The ban was passed by the Senate early Thursday before the legislature broke for a holiday recess. It had earlier been passed by the state House of Representatives and now goes to the desk of Republican Gov. Charlie Baker.

    Baker hasn’t indicated whether or when he will sign the ban, but its chances are good. In September, he had declared a public health emergency and ordered a temporary ban on the sale of vaping products. .........

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