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Thread: Top Bolivian coup plotters were School of the Americas grads,served as attachés

  1. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Read carefully:

    In May 2006, then newly-elected president Evo Morales renationalized Bolivia’s oil and gas industries. This has increased tax revenue, to spend on Bolivia’s government policy.
    And? Are you saying it didn't happen? Or are you saying what you quoted goes beyond stating the facts, and promotes something?

    What? What of it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't really care if I happen to be wrong about your positions, you are wrong about mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I didn't vote for Trump.
    A POX ON BOTH YOUR PARTIES



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  3. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Didn't Gaddafi do basically the same thing? Why do we have to bring someone down when they do this in their country? What business is it of ours?
    I never said we should bring anyone down.

    Why are you pretending it isn't communism?

    Is it a good thing when people end communism in their own country?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  5. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    And? Are you saying it didn't happen? Or are you saying what you quoted goes beyond stating the facts, and promotes something?

    What? What of it?
    Are you claiming it wasn't communism?
    Or that firestarter wasn't saying it was a good thing?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Are you claiming it wasn't communism?
    Or that firestarter wasn't saying it was a good thing?
    What you quoted didn't pass judgment on communism at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't really care if I happen to be wrong about your positions, you are wrong about mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I didn't vote for Trump.
    A POX ON BOTH YOUR PARTIES

  7. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I never said we should bring anyone down.

    Why are you pretending it isn't communism?

    Is it a good thing when people end communism in their own country?
    Total fail, I'm not pretending, you are. The US bought him down, period. I don't care what they do, I care what we do, and we did this.
    "The Patriarch"

  8. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    What you quoted didn't pass judgment on communism at all.
    LOL

    Firestarter was passing judgement:

    To me it looks like the dirt poor Bolivia was doing relatively well in the period that Morales was president.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Total fail, I'm not pretending, you are. The US bought him down, period. I don't care what they do, I care what we do, and we did this.
    I have said many times we shouldn't be involved.
    But our involvement doesn't change a communist into a good guy or communism into liberty.
    The majority of Bolivians wanted him gone and it was primarily Bolivians who got rid of him and that makes it a good thing.
    But we still should have stayed out of it.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  10. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    LOL

    Firestarter was passing judgement:
    Did he credit communism? Did he credit other variables for that? Did he specify? Are you putting words in people's mouths again? Can't find something to nitpick him to death over, so you're imagining/manufacturing something?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't really care if I happen to be wrong about your positions, you are wrong about mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I didn't vote for Trump.
    A POX ON BOTH YOUR PARTIES

  11. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Did he credit communism? Did he credit other variables for that? Did he specify? Are you putting words in people's mouths again? Can't find something to nitpick him to death over, so you're imagining/manufacturing something?
    He defended Morales' record and Morales' record is a record of communism as the article he posted makes clear.

    Try again.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I have said many times we shouldn't be involved.
    But our involvement doesn't change a communist into a good guy or communism into liberty.
    The majority of Bolivians wanted him gone and it was primarily Bolivians who got rid of him and that makes it a good thing.
    But we still should have stayed out of it.
    No. that's not what happened. You can spin it from here to Tuesday but the fact remains we brought him down. Just like Gaddafi.
    "The Patriarch"



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  14. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    No. that's not what happened. You can spin it from here to Tuesday but the fact remains we brought him down. Just like Gaddafi.
    It's like watching The Last Amway Salesman. He's just depressing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't really care if I happen to be wrong about your positions, you are wrong about mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I didn't vote for Trump.
    A POX ON BOTH YOUR PARTIES

  15. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Show me posts where he pontificated about the glories of communism. I must have missed them.

    But then I don't scrutinize every post here.

    I haven't read it nor do I plan to. Unlike Swordy, I don't feel any obligation or compulsion to correct every erroneous or objectionable commentary posted here. If I did I'd have to spenddall day every day just correcting Swordy's drivel. I don't have that kind of time to waste. I've got a real life to live.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  16. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    I haven't read it nor do I plan to. Unlike Swordy, I don't feel any obligation or compulsion to correct every erroneous or objectionable commentary posted here. If I did I'd have to spenddall day every day just correcting Swordy's drivel. I don't have that kind of time to waste. I've got a real life to live.
    You have plenty of time to waste attacking conservatives but not any time at all to argue with communists.

    That's leftarians for you.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You have plenty of time to waste attacking conservatives but not any time at all to argue with communists.

    That's leftarians for you.
    The self-identified "conservatives" attack him. The alleged communist simply posts stories about imperialism backfiring.

    Try not attacking someone somewhere sometime and see if that doesn't help you sell that Amway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't really care if I happen to be wrong about your positions, you are wrong about mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I didn't vote for Trump.
    A POX ON BOTH YOUR PARTIES

  18. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    The self-identified "conservatives" attack him. The alleged communist simply posts stories about imperialism backfiring.

    Try not attacking someone somewhere sometime and see if that doesn't help you sell that Amway.


    You'd love it if I let the commies spew commie propaganda unopposed, wouldn't you?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    The self-identified "conservatives" attack him. The alleged communist simply posts stories about imperialism backfiring.

    Try not attacking someone somewhere sometime and see if that doesn't help you sell that Amway.

    Belligerence he's got in spades. He's always looking for enemies and so he finds them. Must be a terribly lonely existence but he does it to himself.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  20. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The popular view is that anything done by outside intervention, US or otherwise, is therefore wrong. This was a view often promoted by the Soviets during the Cold War (only in relation to US, French, etc intervention, not their own, of course). There was lots of talk of imperialists, capitalist raiders, mega-corporations, and other evil-sounding things. This apparently continues:



    The implication is that there's something wrong with this; that that coup d'etat which the US allegedly caused was for the worse. Was it? I don't know. I'm not a Haiti observer. Given the kinds of governments which Haiti has enjoyed since its independence from France, whatever dictatorship the CIA allegedly foisted upon the island may well have been an improvement - or maybe not. The point is that journalists almost always operate on the unspoken assumption that self-determination trumps all, and impress upon their audiences the idea that any changes wrought by foreign powers are necessarily for the worse. The Chileans (some of them) want to establish a bolshevik regime and slaughter their opponents? Great. What right do we (evil capitalist meddlers) have to interfere...?

    Again, I reserve my judgment about this thing in Bolivia; this is a general comment.
    The problem with interventionism is that they are usually done for the benefit of the interventionist country and not the target country. When the US spends millions of dollars and spends lots of political capital to perform a regime change in say Haiti or Venezuela, you better believe that they are planning to extract some benefit from their labour.

    This is the problem I have with it. Also nations should be free to self destruct, they wanna implement communism? the Chileans wanna nationalize their copper mines? the US has no right to get in the way of that. Btw, I bet I can manage your life better than you can and I am sure seeing as you love interventionism so much, you would have no issues with me coming over and making a better person out of you.
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  21. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Let me know when you argue with firestarter about the glories of communism.
    LIAR, I haven’t posted a single thing supporting Communism since I joined this forum.
    I’ve posted in this thread because I oppose another coup in the worst tradition of Operation Condor by the US government: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...-attacks/page2


    I oppose Communism, amongst others, because it was effectively orchestrated by Anglo-American intelligence and banking: https://www.lawfulpath.com/forum/vie...3&t=1154#p5154


    So far you haven’t posted anything on the “horrible crimes” by Evo Morales, yet…
    Despite me asking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Firestarter
    Please show us some of the horrible misdeeds that "commie" Bolivian President Evo Morales perpetrated.
    Or "evidence" of voter fraud...

    In between the anybody that supports Morales or is against Israel is a “commie” BS, so far you have made 2 interesting posts with actual information (I estimate that at about 5%)!
    One of these 2 interesting posts (unfortunately you posted about this twice, which I rate as spam...) is about Morales meeting Pope Francis and gave him a present with Communist symbology.


    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post


    Last week the Marxist quasi-dictator of Bolivia, Evo Morales, presented Pope Francis with a gift — a carved wooden hammer-and-sickle cross on which the figure of Christ is crucified.
    Personally I wouldn’t call it a crime against humanity though that he met the Pope and showed his respect.


    Talking about symbology, your idol Donald Trump has the Double headed eagle for the Holy Roman Empire (the predecessor of the EU) and the lion of Judah (to show his love for the European nobility and Israel) in his coat of arms.
    So now YOU are really a “globalist”, supporting the crimes against humanity by the Trump administration, IMF and World Bank.
    Do NOT ever read my posts.
    Google and Yahoo wouldn’t block them without a very good reason: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...he-world/page3



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  23. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Firestarter View Post
    LIAR, I haven’t posted a single thing supporting Communism since I joined this forum.
    SJW: If you oppose the federal Education Department you're against education.

    Right wing Shyll: If you oppose military regime change against a socialist government you're pro commie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't really care if I happen to be wrong about your positions, you are wrong about mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I didn't vote for Trump.
    A POX ON BOTH YOUR PARTIES

  24. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    nations should be free to self destruct, they wanna implement communism? the Chileans wanna nationalize their copper mines? the US has no right to get in the way of that.
    I'm not in favor of aggression, so I'll have to disagree.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  25. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I'm not in favor of aggression, so I'll have to disagree.
    Ok Mr. Kissinger.
    "The Patriarch"

  26. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Ok Mr. Kissinger.
    See, I, totalitarian monster that I am, find it objectionable that, for instance, Mao killed 60 million people.

    They weren't my neighbors (I don't live in Tsingtao), but it still irked me a tad...

    And so, if there had been some way to off Mao and stop that, I'd have supported it.

    But, thank you Che enthusiasts, I now appreciate the error of my ways; "nations should be free to self-destruct."

    If Mao and friends want to murder 60 million people, who are we to stop that; it's like, their right n stuff...

    (the 60 millions victims don't have rights, evidently)
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  27. #173
    The New York Times’ Long History of Endorsing US-Backed Coups

    Bolivian President Evo Morales was overthrown in a US-backed military coup d’état earlier this month after Bolivian army generals appeared on television demanding his resignation. As Morales fled to Mexico, the army appointed right-wing Senator Jeanine Añez as his successor. Añez, a Christian conservative who has described Bolivia’s indigenous majority as “satanic”, arrived at the presidential palace holding an oversized Bible, declaring that Christianity was re-entering the government. She immediately announced she would “take all measures necessary” to “pacify” the indigenous resistance to her takeover.

    This included pre-exonerating the country’s notorious security services of all future crimes in their “re-establishment of order,” leading to massacres of dozens of mostly indigenous people.

    The New York Times, the United States’ most influential newspaper, immediately applauded the events, its editorial board refusing to use the word “coup” to describe the overthrow, claiming instead that Morales had “resigned,” leaving a “vacuum of power” into which Añez was forced to move. The Times presented the deposed president as an “arrogant” and “increasingly autocratic” populist tyrant “brazenly abusing” power, “stuffing” the Supreme Court with his loyalists, “crushing any institution” standing in his way, and presiding over a “highly fishy” vote.

    This, for democratic-minded Bolivians, was “the last straw” and forcing him out “became the only remaining option,” the Times extolled. It expressed relief that the country was now in the hands of “more responsible leaders” and stated emphatically that the whole situation was his fault; “There can be little doubt who was responsible for the chaos: newly resigned president Evo Morales,” the editorial board stated in the first paragraph of one article.

    The Times, according to Professor Ian Hudson of the University of Manitoba, co-author of “Gatekeeper: 60 Years of Economics According to the New York Times,” remains America’s most influential news outlet in shaping public opinion.

    “Despite the changing media landscape and the financial troubles of old school journalism models – including the New York Times – it remains the agenda setter. Social media often use or respond to Times stories. It is still probably the single most referenced news outlet in the US Other websites, like Yahoo get more hits, but they do not report or create their own stories. The New York Times still ranks as the top investigative and opinion setting news organization” he told MintPress News.

    The first draft of history

    Newsrooms across America are sent advanced copies of the Times’ front page so they will know what is “important news” and adjust their own coverage accordingly. In this way its influence extends well beyond its nearly 5 million subscribers, its output becoming the first draft of history. Yet, when it comes to US intervention, the Times offers its “consistent support” for American actions around the world, Hudson says, claiming that the latest Bolivia example “very much followed this trend.” Indeed, there has rarely been an effort at regime change that the paper did not fully endorse, including the following six examples.

    Iran 1953

    In 1953, the CIA engineered a coup against the administration of Mohammad Mossadegh, installing the Shah as an autocrat in his place. Mossadegh, a secular liberal reformer, had angered Western governments by nationalizing Iran’s oil industry, arguing that the country’s resources should be owned by and used to benefit the people of Iran. The Shah presided over decades of terror and human rights abuses, finally being overthrown in the revolution of 1979.

    The Times expressed a “deep sense of relief,” many felt that Mossadegh, a “fanatical power-hungry man” and a Kremlin stooge who had “wrecked the economy” in his “bid for dictatorship” had been deposed. The editorial board gave a warning to others who might try to nationalize industries owned by American corporations: “Underdeveloped countries with rich resources now have an object lesson in the cost that must be paid by one of their number which goes berserk with fanatical nationalism,” it wrote, two days after Mossadegh’s ouster.

    Brazil 1964

    Like Mossadegh, Brazilian President Joao Goulart was far from a communist; the center-left reformer who had been in power since 1961 modeled himself after John F. Kennedy. He was overthrown in a US-supported military coup d’état that brought about over twenty years of fascist dictatorship that saw tens of thousands of people arrested and tortured.

    Two days after the event, the Times’ editorial board announced, “We do not lament the passing of a leader who had proved so incompetent and so irresponsible.” As with Bolivia, it refused to use the word “coup,” instead claiming that Goulart, who “had almost no supporters,” was deposed in “another peaceful revolution.”

    One month later, a report entitled “Brazil relieved by Goulart’s Fall” claimed there was “no outcry or even concern” over the events, but instead a “widespread feeling of deep relief and optimism” in the country. It stated that all of Brazil had “written off” the “extremist” and “far leftist” “regime” and supported the “revolt” against him. In particularly Orwellian fashion, it claimed that the “nation appears to have been yearning” for a “political clean up” of “extremists,” applauding the widespread imprisonment of officials in the Goulart administration on the grounds that they were “communists.”

    Chile 1973

    The overthrow of the democratically-elected Chilean socialist Salvador Allende in 1973 and his replacement with the fascist dictator Augusto Pinochet is one of the most well-known and infamous events in CIA history. The fallout from Pinochet’s economic mismanagement and reign of terror continues to this day and provides the backdrop for the enormous anti-government protest movement currently engulfing the country.

    As soon as Allende was elected, the Times began a campaign to demonize the new leader, claiming that Chile’s “free institutions” likely would not survive the “sharp turn to the left” he was proposing. The day after the coup, when Pinochet’s forces bombed the presidential palace and forced Allende to commit suicide, the Times editorial board blamed the President for his own downfall, just as it did with Morales and with Mossadegh, claiming:

    No Chilean party or faction can escape some responsibility…but a heavy share must be assigned to the unfortunate Dr. Allende himself. Even when the dangers of polarization had become unmistakably evident, he persisted in pushing a program of pervasive socialism for which he had no popular mandate.

    It also pre-determined that the very obvious involvement of the US government, conducting a campaign of economic war against Chile, in order to “make the economy scream” in the words of President Nixon and Henry Kissinger to the CIA, was non-existent. The board advised that “It is essential that Washington meticulously keep hands off the present crisis…There must be no grounds whatsoever for even a suspicion of outside intervention.”

    Venezuela 2002 and 2019

    In April 2002, the US government bankrolled and supported a coup attempt against Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez. In a consistent pattern, the Times editorial board came out to heartily endorse proceedings, again deliberately refraining from using the word coup. Two days after the event it noted:

    With yesterday’s resignation of President Hugo Chavez, Venezuelan democracy is no longer threatened by a would-be dictator. Mr. Chavez, a ruinous demagogue, stepped down after the military intervened and handed power to a respected business leader, Pedro Carmona.”

    And like with other coups, the Times immediately treated the idea of US involvement as utterly impossible, adding, “Rightly, his removal was a purely Venezuelan affair.”

    What was unique about this event was that the coup was dramatically overturned by hundreds of thousands of people in the streets, who convinced military units loyal to Chavez to retake the presidential palace. Since then, successive US governments have dedicated significant resources to regime change in Venezuela. The Times also applauded self-declared President Juan Guaidó’s attempt to gain power earlier this year, presenting him as a man of the people, claiming he was “cheered on by thousands of supporters in the streets and a growing number of governments, including the United States.”

    But as Guaidó’s attempt collapsed under the weight of its own unpopularity, the Times expressed its anger that Maduro, a corrupt Russian agent, who pushed Venezuela “to utter ruin,” remained in power. “It would be a great relief for Venezuela to be rid” of Maduro, the editorial board mused, “the sooner the armed forces evict the thieves” the better, it said, disappointed that, for once, it could not celebrate a successful US coup.

    Manufacturing consent

    Studying the Times’ coverage of US-orchestrated coup attempts, it becomes clear that there is a checklist of talking points it employs time and again to justify events.

    - Blame all economic and political problems on the government; ignore the effect of any US sanctions.

    - Constantly present the targeted leader as a tyrannical autocrat crushing dissent, no matter what the reality is.

    - Insist that the leader is actually a Russian plant controlled by the Kremlin.

    - Refrain from using the word “coup”. Prefer instead words like “uprising”, “revolt” or “transition”.

    - Express ridicule at the idea that the US could be involved in the affair.

    - Depict the new US-backed rulers as democratically-minded and downplay any violence they commit in establishing their rule.

    - Blame the deposed leaders for their own overthrow.

    To be sure, the New York Times is not the only major media outlet guilty of reflexively supporting every US action around the world. The Economist and the Washington Post both came out to support the coup in Bolivia, as they had done before with Venezuela. But the Times’ position as “the paper of record” sets it apart in terms of importance.

    This position makes it a crucial weapon in the propaganda war waged on the American people in order to manufacture consent for regime change abroad.

    Reprinted with permission from MintPress News.
    http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives...-backed-coups/
    "The Patriarch"

  28. #174
    - Blame all economic and political problems on the government; ignore the effect of any US sanctions.

    - Constantly present the targeted leader as a tyrannical autocrat crushing dissent, no matter what the reality is.

    - Insist that the leader is actually a Russian plant controlled by the Kremlin.

    - Refrain from using the word “coup”. Prefer instead words like “uprising”, “revolt” or “transition”.

    - Express ridicule at the idea that the US could be involved in the affair.

    - Depict the new US-backed rulers as democratically-minded and downplay any violence they commit in establishing their rule.

    - Blame the deposed leaders for their own overthrow.
    That sounds really familiar......
    "The Patriarch"

  29. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    That sounds really familiar......
    This thread is certainly full of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't really care if I happen to be wrong about your positions, you are wrong about mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I didn't vote for Trump.
    A POX ON BOTH YOUR PARTIES

  30. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I'm talking about a principle, not endorsing any particular intervention.

    However, if you want an example of a fairly successful intervention in recent history:





    It'll always be Burma to me.
    Okay. But even that is not an example of an intervention to overthrow a government but rather to defend one. That said Vietnam is a relatively prosperous country despite the fact that we ended the intervention prematurely.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  32. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Okay. But even that is not an example of an intervention to overthrow a government but rather to defend one.
    Is that an important distinction?

    That said Vietnam is a relatively prosperous country despite the fact that we ended the intervention prematurely.
    It is. The Vietnam War, as actually fought, was a total catastrophe for all concerned.

    But that doesn't mean that every possible intervention must be equally counterproductive.

    I'm simply arguing for the position that interventions should be analyzed on a case by case basis.

    There should be no rule inscribed on the stone handed down on Mount Rothbard reading "thou shalt not intervene."

    The rule should be more like, "don't intervene unless you're really sure that the reward outweighs the risk."
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  33. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Is that an important distinction?
    To me it is. It's the difference between helping your neighbor ward fight off thugs and being a thug yourself and kicking in the door.

    It is. The Vietnam War, as actually fought, was a total catastrophe for all concerned.

    But that doesn't mean that every possible intervention must be equally counterproductive.

    I'm simply arguing for the position that interventions should be analyzed on a case by case basis.
    The only way to do what you are proposing from a policy perspective is to intervene in the hopes that it might work out and analyze it on the back end. Recipe for endless regime change wars right then. I take the position that it's better to either never intervene or in the worst case have some standard like going in when invited to defend an ally government rather than going in uninvited to overthrow an "enemy" government.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  34. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    To me it is. It's the difference between helping your neighbor ward fight off thugs and being a thug yourself and kicking in the door.



    The only way to do what you are proposing from a policy perspective is to intervene in the hopes that it might work out and analyze it on the back end. Recipe for endless regime change wars right then. I take the position that it's better to either never intervene or in the worst case have some standard like going in when invited to defend an ally government rather than going in uninvited to overthrow an "enemy" government.
    Intervention, it's like communism, it just hasn't been done right yet.
    "The Patriarch"

  35. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    To me it is. It's the difference between helping your neighbor ward fight off thugs and being a thug yourself and kicking in the door.
    So the first party to actually initiate hostilities is necessarily in the wrong?

    Why?

    The only way to do what you are proposing from a policy perspective is to intervene in the hopes that it might work out and analyze it on the back end. Recipe for endless regime change wars right then. I take the position that it's better to either never intervene or in the worst case have some standard like going in when invited to defend an ally government rather than going in uninvited to overthrow an "enemy" government.
    Can you give me an example of anything a state (or PDA, if you're an ancap) might do which doesn't involve risk of error?
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

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