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Thread: What is your denomination?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by tfurrh View Post
    (Ana)Baptists too argue that their position is pre-denominational.
    And Bruce Jenner claims he is a woman.

    Anabaptism arose from the Radical Reformation. It’s is an offshoot of Protestantism.

    In fact, everyone who claims they are “non-denominational” are essentially a type of Protestant, at least in core doctrine, belief, and books considered to be Sacred Scriptures.
    Last edited by TER; 11-13-2019 at 02:04 PM.
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    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Interesting perspective!
    It's not so much a perspective as a statement of fact. The Pope of Rome was one patriarch in disagreement with all four of the others.

    You can't have four people split from a group and leave one person. That's in simple defiance of basic logic.

    But the chart also doesn't include the first formal split, at the Council of Chalcedon - but Chalcedonian and non-Chalcedonian Orthodox are in disagreement over a split hair so fine so as to be pretty unbelievable. We're basically the same, but maintain a 1600 year old disagreement.
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    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    It's not so much a perspective as a statement of fact. The Pope of Rome was one patriarch in disagreement with all four of the others.

    You can't have four people split from a group and leave one person. That's in simple defiance of basic logic.

    But the chart also doesn't include the first formal split, at the Council of Chalcedon - but Chalcedonian and non-Chalcedonian Orthodox are in disagreement over a split hair so fine so as to be pretty unbelievable. We're basically the same, but maintain a 1600 year old disagreement.
    Greetings brother!

    I would simply add that the disagreement with the Monophysites at that time was very significant and extremely important in terms of Christology. The non-Chalcedonians have since “better elucidated” their position to be in fact nearly, if not so, completely orthodox and that the controversies were in fact differences in semantics during that time. They prefer the label Miaphysites to demonstrate that.

    The wonder and amazement is that even with 1700 years of formal excommunication, they are nearly identical liturgically, ecclesiologically, doctrinally, and theologically. They are indeed nearest to the truth outside the Eastern Orthodox Church, and this by the Holy Spirit no doubt. By the time of the Parousia, I am confided the we will see both ancient Churches in full communion.
    Last edited by TER; 11-13-2019 at 03:23 PM.
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    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    And Bruce Jenner claims he is a woman.

    Anabaptism arose from the Radical Reformation. It’s is an offshoot of Protestantism.

    In fact, everyone who claims they are “non-denominational” are essentially a type of Protestant, at least in core doctrine, belief, and books considered to be Sacred Scriptures.
    There are many correspondences from early church figures debating the issue of infant baptism. There were a lot in Europe that joined in on the protestant reformation, and a lot that came out of the reformation, but the issue's been there since very early on. No denying that.

    And yes, I think nondenominationals are like political independents....they really identify with a party.
    Last edited by tfurrh; 11-13-2019 at 03:38 PM.
    "It's probably the biggest hoax since Big Foot!" - Mitt Romney 1-16-2012 SC Debate

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by tfurrh View Post
    There are many correspondences from early church figures debating the issue of infant baptism. There were a lot in Europe that joined in on the protestant reformation, and a lot that came out of the reformation, but the issue's been there since very early on. No denying that.

    And yes, I think nondenominationals are like political independents....they really identify with a party.
    There is MUCH more to what Anabaptism is than merely their stand on infant baptism when compared to the teachings, worship, structure and Holy Writings of the early Christian Church of the first few centuries. And the reality is is that they are a Protestant offshoot who are against infant baptism. This doesn’t make them pre-denominational. It makes them another flavor of Protestantism.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    There is MUCH more to what Anabaptism is than merely their stand on infant baptism when compared to the teachings, worship, structure and Holy Writings of the early Christian Church of the first few centuries. And the reality is is that they are a Protestant offshoot who are against infant baptism. This doesn’t make them pre-denominational. It makes them another flavor of Protestantism.
    Not gonna argue denominations.. You know I am versed in them.

    But Jesus called them aside and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave—
    when I see hierarchy... I hear a shout.. It shall not be this way among you.

    if it is that way,, it ain't His way.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Right. But that is totally different from saying if you must do works to keep the world from snatching salvation from your hands!

    You have not provided a single Bible verse to support that claim. In fact the opposite is true. Let's go through each verse you posted.

    Titus 3:8 - [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

    Good works are indeed "good and profitable unto men." No debate there. But that doesn't mean you do good works to keep the world from snatching your salvation!

    Matthew 5:16 - Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

    Yes. Good works bring glory to God. No debate there. But that doesn't mean you do good works to keep the world from snatching your salvation!

    Hebrews 6:10 - For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

    Yes. God will not forget your good works. No debate there. But that doesn't mean you do good works to keep the world from snatching your salvation!

    James 2:20-24 - But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    Yes. Faith without works is dead. A church that doesn't do good works is dead. No debate there. But that doesn't mean you do good works to keep the world from snatching your salvation!

    Titus 2:7 - In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine [shewing] uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

    Yes. Good works should be encourage. That's why you need to be part of a church. (In other words a "denomination"). No debate there. But that doesn't mean you do good works to keep the world from snatching your salvation!


    Hebrews 13:21 - Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.


    Yes. Good works are pleasing to Jesus. No debate there. But that doesn't mean you do good works to keep the world from snatching your salvation!

    Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

    Look at the part you left out!

    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


    Why did you snip out the part "Not of works, lest any man should boast?"
    Your works are all a part the things you do...you know, the golden rule and live by example and following in Jesus' steps, as best we can. If you have faith in God but do not act like it, you are not a good stewart for others.

    It's really just that simple.
    Last edited by donnay; 11-14-2019 at 08:01 AM. Reason: added not
    My website: https://www.theherbsofthefield.com/

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  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Not gonna argue denominations.. You know I am versed in them.



    when I see hierarchy... I hear a shout.. It shall not be this way among you.

    if it is that way,, it ain't His way.
    I hold the understanding of the scriptures and Christ’s teachings as interpreted by the Apostolic Fathers and the early Christian Saints above your interpretation. I believe the Saints are much wiser than you. Also, from my studying the history of the early Church, I also believe that if you showed that kind of unrepentant defiance and prideful disobedience in those early days when it was criminal to be a baptized Christian, there is a good chance you would have been disallowed to partake in the Lord’s Supper and casted out of the community. I’m not saying that because I think you are a bad man or anything (in fact I like you a lot), but simply expressing that there is a reason Christ chose three close disciples in His inner circle, and twelve disciples as His closest students. It is why Christ gave those He ordained with the Holy Spirit to bind and loose sins and go baptize. There is a reason the earliest Christians after Pentecost constructed BY THE HOLY SPIRIT the office of the bishop, of priests and of deacons. This was not done in a vacuum but by the good order and inspiration of God through the Holy Spirit. It is what has kept the faith through these past two millennia.

    And it was those ordained servants of the people, chosen by the Saints before them for their fidelity and holiness, who took the greatest risks and sacrificed the most in order to “feed the sheep” as Christ commanded. They signed their lives away the moment they became ordained, all to the service of God and His children and often times with their blood and their lives.

    You have a very distorted idea of what the clergy is for and why God has ordained them. Of course there are sinful evil ones which have fallen far from their calling. Such is the fallen state we are in. But there are also many who have been the greatest teachers and defenders of the faith and of the people who have ever lived and whose shoes neither of us are worthy to untie. So before you cast judgment on such holy giants who stand before God’s altar praying for the world, slightly check yourself.
    Last edited by TER; 11-13-2019 at 05:24 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post

    And it was those ordained servants of the people, chosen by the Saints before them for their fidelity and holiness, who took the greatest risks and sacrificed the most in order to “feed the sheep” as Christ commanded.
    The Roman Sect has exactly the same claim..

    I was raised with that same teaching. as a justification of a priesthood and Hierarchy.

    And I have become convinced that the Legalized and Sanctioned religion is nothing I want anything to do with..

    People yes,, the monolithic organization,,no.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    There is MUCH more to what Anabaptism is than merely their stand on infant baptism when compared to the teachings, worship, structure and Holy Writings of the early Christian Church of the first few centuries. And the reality is is that they are a Protestant offshoot who are against infant baptism. This doesn’t make them pre-denominational. It makes them another flavor of Protestantism.
    I'm really not disagreeing with you. I'm fine with calling Baptists protestants....especially a reformed baptist like myself. I'm just saying that even early on and consistently throughout history there have been groups of believers who maintained many of the same beliefs Baptists do.
    Last edited by tfurrh; 11-13-2019 at 08:36 PM.
    "It's probably the biggest hoax since Big Foot!" - Mitt Romney 1-16-2012 SC Debate



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    The Roman Sect has exactly the same claim..

    I was raised with that same teaching. as a justification of a priesthood and Hierarchy.

    And I have become convinced that the Legalized and Sanctioned religion is nothing I want anything to do with..

    People yes,, the monolithic organization,,no.
    I’m sorry you had a bad personal experience. Thank God He is not limited on constructing His Church based on your experience alone.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Your works are all a part the things you do...you know, the golden rule and live by example and following in Jesus' steps, as best we can. If you have faith in God but do act like it, you are not a good stewart for others.

    It's really just that simple.
    I didn't say works weren't a part of what you do. But we are not saved by our works. The Bible is clear on that. Nor must we work to "prevent our salvation from being snatched out of our hands." Statements like that show a lack of belief in Jesus. Not a lack of belief that Jesus exists but a lack of belief in being able to trust Jesus to keep His promises. It's like a child who keeps saying "Daddy...if I am really really good does that mean you won't stop loving me?" It's really just that simple. A good parent doesn't throw away his/her child just because the child doesn't do enough "good works." But at the same time good parents encourage their children to do good works. You should do go works because you love Jesus, not because you are afraid that He won't keep His promises and that the world will snatch salvation out of your hand.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    It's not so much a perspective as a statement of fact. The Pope of Rome was one patriarch in disagreement with all four of the others.

    You can't have four people split from a group and leave one person. That's in simple defiance of basic logic.

    But the chart also doesn't include the first formal split, at the Council of Chalcedon - but Chalcedonian and non-Chalcedonian Orthodox are in disagreement over a split hair so fine so as to be pretty unbelievable. We're basically the same, but maintain a 1600 year old disagreement.
    For the record I am well aware of the great schism. I learned about it from TER. I was just commenting that his perspective was interesting. That said, the term "protestant" means you are "protesting" something that you find wrong or offensive. So.....I don't think the term "protestant" is accurate for the great schism. It's not that the Roman Bishop "protested" unbiblical teachings among the other bishops. He just wanted to be bishop-in-chief. But @TER could shed light on that. However I think he's using "protestant" differently than how I am. So no. It's not a "statement of fact."
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    I didn't say works weren't a part of what you do. But we are not saved by our works. The Bible is clear on that. Nor must we work to "prevent our salvation from being snatched out of our hands." Statements like that show a lack of belief in Jesus. Not a lack of belief that Jesus exists but a lack of belief in being able to trust Jesus to keep His promises. It's like a child who keeps saying "Daddy...if I am really really good does that mean you won't stop loving me?" It's really just that simple. A good parent doesn't throw away his/her child just because the child doesn't do enough "good works." But at the same time good parents encourage their children to do good works. You should do go works because you love Jesus, not because you are afraid that He won't keep His promises and that the world will snatch salvation out of your hand.
    What does a good parent do when their adult child is a drug addict that steals and lies?
    Truth is Fallacy, Fallacy is Evil.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Not gonna argue denominations.. You know I am versed in them.



    when I see hierarchy... I hear a shout.. It shall not be this way among you.

    if it is that way,, it ain't His way.
    Yep.

    Matthew 20:24-27 New International Version (NIV)

    24 When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers. 25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave


    Of course the term "servant" has been itself been misused in this regard. Politicians call themselves "public servants" no matter how greedy or corrupt or demanding they are. The ubiquitous term "minister" also means "servant" but not all ministers truly take on that role.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    What does a good parent do when their adult child is a drug addict that steals and lies?
    Re-read the story of the prodigal son. The father allowed the son to reap the consequences of his actions in order for him to "come to his senses." The father ran to him (the son) when the son "was a long way off." The son thought he would have to work his way back into his father's good graces. That's why he said "I will say to my father I am not worthy to be your son. Let me be one of your hired servants." And he did say that to his father, but his father ignored that request, put a robe and a ring on him, threw a party for him, and declared to everyone that this was his son who had returned. When the older son, who had been doing the good works, got mad, the father said "Why are you upset? Everything I have is yours." The point is that certainly there are advantages to good works. God not only encourages but also blesses our good works. Our works are just not required for salvation. The prodigal didn't do any work to earn his father's acceptance.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Re-read the story of the prodigal son. The father allowed the son to reap the consequences of his actions in order for him to "come to his senses." The father ran to him (the son) when the son "was a long way off." The son thought he would have to work his way back into his father's good graces. That's why he said "I will say to my father I am not worthy to be your son. Let me be one of your hired servants." And he did say that to his father, but his father ignored that request, put a robe and a ring on him, threw a party for him, and declared to everyone that this was his son who had returned. When the older son, who had been doing the good works, got mad, the father said "Why are you upset? Everything I have is yours." The point is that certainly there are advantages to good works. God not only encourages but also blesses our good works. Our works are just not required for salvation. The prodigal didn't do any work to earn his father's acceptance.
    That son did not return to steal from the family and leave. I am asking what a good parent does with a no good trash kind of adult child that is garbage and has no respect or values? Not a person that will go and sin no more, but a person that will go and sin forevermore.
    Truth is Fallacy, Fallacy is Evil.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    That son did not return to steal from the family and leave. I am asking what a good parent does with a no good trash kind of adult child that is garbage and has no respect or values? Not a person that will go and sin no more, but a person that will go and sin forevermore.
    The parable didn't say the son went and sinned no more. When Peter asked how many times to forgive Jesus told him not 7 times but 70 times 7. I have every reason to believe that Jesus is more forgiving than what He asks us to do. That said, what is the purpose of your question? Is it to argue for salvation by works? Or do you have an actual adult child that is garbage that you are trying to figure out how to handle?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    That son did not return to steal from the family and leave. I am asking what a good parent does with a no good trash kind of adult child that is garbage and has no respect or values? Not a person that will go and sin no more, but a person that will go and sin forevermore.
    I want to expound on my answer. I will say this first. I don't judge any parent. Well..the obviously abusive ones, but not the parents trying to be good parents. That said I think Jesus is at least as loving as my mom. Neither of her kids are drug addicted mind you, but we aren't perfect either. But I'm really thinking about my nephew. He's not drug addicted either, but he has mental issues and is not facing some serious legal problems because of acting out violently. My mom would take him back in her home in a heartbeat. For her own safety I have insisted that he can't live with my parents unless I am there too. She put her love for him over her own safety. Jesus did that by dying on the cross. Also my dad used to be a domestic abuser from before I was old enough to remember until adulthood and she stayed with him too. He ultimately changed into a completely different person. I'm not suggesting a woman has to do that to be a "good wife." What I am saying is that when we see people that loving that gives us a glimpse into God's love. Look at the book of Hosea. God told His prophet to marry a prostitute that God predicted would be unfaithful and then go and buy the prostitute back after she had gotten herself sold into sexual slavery from her own stupidity just so God could illustrate how much He loved Israel. He loves us the same.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by tfurrh View Post
    I'm really not disagreeing with you. I'm fine with calling Baptists protestants....especially a reformed baptist like myself. I'm just saying that even early on and consistently throughout history there have been groups of believers who maintained many of the same beliefs Baptists do.
    Yup,,
    All of the Denominations have a piece of truth .. Often truth that was hidden or obscured by religion.

    Several people have had Revelation Knowledge ,, that was rejected by the "church",, so they left and followed God..

    I accept any that call Christ Lord...

    Judgement will have surprises for many,, it did for me. There is Humor in Gods Wisdom.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    The parable didn't say the son went and sinned no more. When Peter asked how many times to forgive Jesus told him not 7 times but 70 times 7. I have every reason to believe that Jesus is more forgiving than what He asks us to do. That said, what is the purpose of your question? Is it to argue for salvation by works? Or do you have an actual adult child that is garbage that you are trying to figure out how to handle?
    What does Peter do at 491?

    If a person believes in the bible then it is clear that salvation is not from works. Works cannot get you there or keep you from it. The lying, thieving drug addicted piece of garbage adult child, attains salvation from his faith not his works. If you believe you are justified it is "Just as If I'd" never done it.

    You had interjected the good parent scenario and IMHO that is not the same.

    I believe I am a good parent and have 4 adult children. None that I know of are thieves or drug addicts. I have however always held them to a performance level that suits their capabilities. Recently I gave my youngest daughter some strong words that I stand by to this moment. She will be 21 in February. I told her this, "I hope you succeed. The thing is I need nothing from you. If I did need something, I would go without before I would ask you. You are over 20 years old. You are an adult. I am tired of dealing with you. Let's face it. You do not like me and I do not like you. I have always been there for you and you have never been for anyone but yourself. Grow up. There comes a point when people stop expecting their parents to solve or fix their problems. Why would I want to go out of my way for you? All you exhibit is attitude. I love you and sincerely hope you learn to stop treating people like $#@! while doing everything in your power to play some type of victim. I am done with it. Your words mean nothing to me. Your actions and attitude say it all. You are no longer a child and I no longer want to be the blame for your misery. Rejoice you don't have to deal with your $#@! father anymore! Don't ever bring that sack of $#@! boyfriend around me again either. I highly doubt the issues discussed are isolated with me. If they are, then that is great news for you. Your problems are solved. If you one day you realize they extend further than your father, take this last piece of advice. DO NOT TAKE PSYCHOACTIVE DRUGS FOR DEPRESSION OR ANXIETY! The only way to solve problems is by dealing with them."

    Who am I to judge how anyone lives. I deal in reality. When the vehicle I am driving or towing has a blow out, I fix the tire. When anything is broke I fix it. When the most miserable job needs done, it doesn't do itself, I do it. These days the incompetent village thinks it is their job to raise your child. They think their nose in your business is the proper place for it. They cannot figure out how to get a trash can to the edge of their property and suffer from anxiety and..... but they are capable of judging others and telling them how to live. Society is fuched.

    People believe the scripture is God's word. Inspired by God. Then entire religions change their doctrine to include the dregs of society.

    If there is a God, a person's salvation is between them and that God. At your dinner table you can choose to feed whomever you want. Comparing the love of a presumed God with the love of a parent is a fail. Who decides if a parents love meets the muster? Does the Catholic church still believe in mortal sins? Is that biblical?

    My theory is help those in need. Leave those that choose to not help themselves to defecate on themselves. My youngest son is a gem. The other day he was home. He helped me put some T-Posts in the rocky ground. I am trying to contain my dogs so they are not a problem for my neighbors any longer. We spoke about how he doesn't have a spare tire. He left to go back to college. He got a flat on the way back. He had no cell service. He got out of his vehicle, waived at a passerby and the guy pulled over. This guy let him use his phone and stuck with my son until he called AAA. About a half hour later the guy returned to check up on my son. AAA had gone the wrong way and had not showed up. The guy hooked my son up with a guy that came out and fixed the tire on site. My son figured he had no service and needed help. He figured he had nothing to lose by trying to flag down a passerby. I take my hat off to the passerby. He couldn't have helped a nicer person. According to scripture, if you believe in salvation, the person that is the nicest best person has no more right to salvation than the worst scum of the earth.
    Last edited by Schifference; 11-14-2019 at 06:27 AM.
    Truth is Fallacy, Fallacy is Evil.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    What does Peter do at 491?
    If Peter focused exclusively on 491 times and kept track of the number meticulously, I would say he should seek therapy for OCD.
    Last edited by RJB; 11-14-2019 at 06:28 AM.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    If Peter focused exclusively on 491 times and kept track of the number meticulously, I would say he should seek therapy for OCD.
    That could certainly be argued. But, the answer was a finite number.
    Truth is Fallacy, Fallacy is Evil.

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    I didn't say works weren't a part of what you do. But we are not saved by our works. The Bible is clear on that. Nor must we work to "prevent our salvation from being snatched out of our hands." Statements like that show a lack of belief in Jesus. Not a lack of belief that Jesus exists but a lack of belief in being able to trust Jesus to keep His promises. It's like a child who keeps saying "Daddy...if I am really really good does that mean you won't stop loving me?" It's really just that simple. A good parent doesn't throw away his/her child just because the child doesn't do enough "good works." But at the same time good parents encourage their children to do good works. You should do go works because you love Jesus, not because you are afraid that He won't keep His promises and that the world will snatch salvation out of your hand.
    I didn't say you are saved by your works. Your faith and your works are the only two things you take with you when you die. And, you will be Judged by them both.
    Judgment can be rewarding if your faith and works proved it. God knows a person's heart.

    The flesh is weak so someone can believe in Christ and fall to the deceptive worldly ways. "Once saved always saved" isn't your ticket into Heaven, You have to always read, with understanding, God's Word and you have to try to do what He asks of us.

    I cannot emphasize this Bible passage enough:

    2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
    15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Denominations = Divisions If you haven't thought that Satan's spirit hasn't taken over organized religions to deceive many, you are simply not paying attention, my friend.
    My website: https://www.theherbsofthefield.com/

    "No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another.” ~ Charles Dickens

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    That could certainly be argued. But, the answer was a finite number.
    To get away from the salvation debate and speak of daily life, I was an atheist/agnostic (depending upon the side of the bed I woke up) for 15 years. I still retain a bit of that skepticism. From that stand point, it could be argued that philosophies and religions are strictly there to make suffering and death more bearable. Stoicism to Buddhism to Christianity to you name it, does this. Man is the only animal who is aware that he faces mortality and many ancient myths say that is why the Gods have given us wine.

    To go further, if we are talking about suffering, ancient texts are books of wisdom. Too many people see them as books of strictly knowledge. They look for secret combinations and formulas of words, spirits, numerology, etc. to predict personal events. Yes there are individual passages that can apply to one person's issue at that moment, but it is good to think of the immensity of the universe and dwell less on our petty pains. People will always wrong us. We will always wrong others. All of us will face our death. To accept all that we can not change, not be shocked when tragedy happens, and to be at peace with it, that is the secret to a good life.

    The passage above is about letting go of personal anger towards someone. Resentment is taking poison and waiting for another person to die. If someone has a pattern of injuring me, I can take precautions to prevent it from happening, but I shouldn't carry the burden of anger. The point of the 491 is forgiveness and letting go. It sometimes takes me about that many times to forgive before I can let go. To get stuck on numerology will lead to sorrow.

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    I didn't say you are saved by your works. Your faith and your works are the only two things you take with you when you die. And, you will be Judged by them both.
    Judgment can be rewarding if your faith and works proved it. God knows a person's heart.

    The flesh is weak so someone can believe in Christ and fall to the deceptive worldly ways. "Once saved always saved" isn't your ticket into Heaven, You have to always read, with understanding, God's Word and you have to try to do what He asks of us.

    I cannot emphasize this Bible passage enough:

    2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
    15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Denominations = Divisions If you haven't thought that Satan's spirit hasn't taken over organized religions to deceive many, you are simply not paying attention, my friend.
    What makes you think you take anything with you when you die?
    Truth is Fallacy, Fallacy is Evil.



  31. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    What makes you think you take anything with you when you die?
    What makes you think I said that? Your works are the deeds you have done on this earth--good, bad or indifferent. Your faith/works are all documented at Judgment. You can repent daily, and if you are sincere (since God knows our heart) your sins will be blotted out and you get a fresh slate.

    Acts 3:19 (KJV)
    19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.



    Here is some scripture to point this out:

    2 Corinthians 5:10
    “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”

    Hebrews 9:27
    “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”

    Romans 14:12
    “So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”

    Matthew 12:36 - 12:37
    36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

    37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

    Psalms 9:8
    “And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.”

    Psalms 1:1 - 1:6
    1 Blessed [is] the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

    2 But his delight [is] in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

    3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

    4 The ungodly [are] not so: but [are] like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

    5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

    6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
    My website: https://www.theherbsofthefield.com/

    "No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another.” ~ Charles Dickens

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    I didn't say you are saved by your works. Your faith and your works are the only two things you take with you when you die. And, you will be Judged by them both.
    Judgment can be rewarding if your faith and works proved it. God knows a person's heart.

    The flesh is weak so someone can believe in Christ and fall to the deceptive worldly ways. "Once saved always saved" isn't your ticket into Heaven, You have to always read, with understanding, God's Word and you have to try to do what He asks of us.

    I cannot emphasize this Bible passage enough:

    2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
    15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Denominations = Divisions If you haven't thought that Satan's spirit hasn't taken over organized religions to deceive many, you are simply not paying attention, my friend.
    This is what made me think that. I must have misread.
    Truth is Fallacy, Fallacy is Evil.

  34. #59
    Nothing that you wrote in your wall of text has anything to do with anything I said. It just doesn't. Again, good parents don't protect their children from the consequences of their own actions. Jesus didn't save the thief on the cross from crucifixion. He saved him from eternal damnation. Let that thought sink in before you reply again so that you will quit building up and tearing down straw men that bear no relationship to what I am saying.

    Edit: And as a parent myself there have been times when I have been "through" with one of my children. But that is not permanent. I don't keep count of how many times my kids screw up. Why on earth would anybody do that? I care about the attitude of my children at that moment. I don't go "Well this is the 492nd time you did X." If you do that with your kids then I feel sorry for you and for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    What does Peter do at 491?

    If a person believes in the bible then it is clear that salvation is not from works. Works cannot get you there or keep you from it. The lying, thieving drug addicted piece of garbage adult child, attains salvation from his faith not his works. If you believe you are justified it is "Just as If I'd" never done it.

    You had interjected the good parent scenario and IMHO that is not the same.

    I believe I am a good parent and have 4 adult children. None that I know of are thieves or drug addicts. I have however always held them to a performance level that suits their capabilities. Recently I gave my youngest daughter some strong words that I stand by to this moment. She will be 21 in February. I told her this, "I hope you succeed. The thing is I need nothing from you. If I did need something, I would go without before I would ask you. You are over 20 years old. You are an adult. I am tired of dealing with you. Let's face it. You do not like me and I do not like you. I have always been there for you and you have never been for anyone but yourself. Grow up. There comes a point when people stop expecting their parents to solve or fix their problems. Why would I want to go out of my way for you? All you exhibit is attitude. I love you and sincerely hope you learn to stop treating people like $#@! while doing everything in your power to play some type of victim. I am done with it. Your words mean nothing to me. Your actions and attitude say it all. You are no longer a child and I no longer want to be the blame for your misery. Rejoice you don't have to deal with your $#@! father anymore! Don't ever bring that sack of $#@! boyfriend around me again either. I highly doubt the issues discussed are isolated with me. If they are, then that is great news for you. Your problems are solved. If you one day you realize they extend further than your father, take this last piece of advice. DO NOT TAKE PSYCHOACTIVE DRUGS FOR DEPRESSION OR ANXIETY! The only way to solve problems is by dealing with them."

    Who am I to judge how anyone lives. I deal in reality. When the vehicle I am driving or towing has a blow out, I fix the tire. When anything is broke I fix it. When the most miserable job needs done, it doesn't do itself, I do it. These days the incompetent village thinks it is their job to raise your child. They think their nose in your business is the proper place for it. They cannot figure out how to get a trash can to the edge of their property and suffer from anxiety and..... but they are capable of judging others and telling them how to live. Society is fuched.

    People believe the scripture is God's word. Inspired by God. Then entire religions change their doctrine to include the dregs of society.

    If there is a God, a person's salvation is between them and that God. At your dinner table you can choose to feed whomever you want. Comparing the love of a presumed God with the love of a parent is a fail. Who decides if a parents love meets the muster? Does the Catholic church still believe in mortal sins? Is that biblical?

    My theory is help those in need. Leave those that choose to not help themselves to defecate on themselves. My youngest son is a gem. The other day he was home. He helped me put some T-Posts in the rocky ground. I am trying to contain my dogs so they are not a problem for my neighbors any longer. We spoke about how he doesn't have a spare tire. He left to go back to college. He got a flat on the way back. He had no cell service. He got out of his vehicle, waived at a passerby and the guy pulled over. This guy let him use his phone and stuck with my son until he called AAA. About a half hour later the guy returned to check up on my son. AAA had gone the wrong way and had not showed up. The guy hooked my son up with a guy that came out and fixed the tire on site. My son figured he had no service and needed help. He figured he had nothing to lose by trying to flag down a passerby. I take my hat off to the passerby. He couldn't have helped a nicer person. According to scripture, if you believe in salvation, the person that is the nicest best person has no more right to salvation than the worst scum of the earth.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 11-15-2019 at 05:07 AM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    I didn't say you are saved by your works. Your faith and your works are the only two things you take with you when you die. And, you will be Judged by them both.
    Judgment can be rewarding if your faith and works proved it. God knows a person's heart.
    Let's get back to what you did say. You said that you have to do good works to keep the world from snatching away your salvation. That statement is not biblical. I am not disagreeing with the idea that you take you works with you. I am saying that you don't do works to "keep the world from snatching away your salvation." That is all.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

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