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Thread: No, Voting Doesn't Mean You "Support the System"

  1. #1

    Exclamation No, Voting Doesn't Mean You "Support the System"

    Does Voting Mean You Support the Regime?

    Nothing about this little anecdote would strike most people as remarkable in any way.
    Since at least the nineteenth century, though, there has been a debate over whether or not voting somehow means the voter has agreed to submit to — or even support — whatever the state does. In some cases, libertarians and anarchists who agree with the "voting = consent" claim conclude that voting is therefore immoral, or perhaps even a form of violence.
    Anarchist extraordinaire Lysander Spooner, however, disagreed:
    It cannot be said that, by voting, a man pledges himself to the Constitution, unless the act of voting be a perfectly voluntary one on his part. Yet the act of voting cannot properly be called a voluntary one on the part of any very large number of those who do vote. It is rather a measure of necessity imposed upon them by others, than one of their own choice.
    In other words, let's imagine a small business owner were given the choice between Candidate A who promises to tax small businesses into oblivion, and Candidate B, who promises to lower taxes. It hardly follows that the small business owner who casts a ballot in this case was supporting the whole system and apparatus that had put him in such an unenviable position to begin with.
    Spooner continues:
    In truth, in the case of individuals, their actual voting is not to be taken as proof of consent, even for the time being. On the contrary, it is to be considered that, without his consent having even been asked, a man finds himself environed by a government that he cannot resist; a government that forces him to pay money, render service, and forego the exercise of many of his natural rights, under peril of weighty punishments. He sees, too, that other men practice this tyranny over him by the use of the ballot. He sees further, that, if he will but use the ballot himself, he has some chance of relieving himself from this tyranny of others, by subjecting them to his own. In short, he finds himself, without his consent, so situated that, if he use the ballot, he may become a master; if he does not use it, he must become a slave. And he has no other alternative than these two. In self-defence, he attempts the former.
    ...it would not, therefore, be a legitimate inference that the government itself, that crushes [the voters], was one which they had voluntarily set up, or even consented to.
    In fact, when one adopts the position that voting indicates consent to the regime and all its acts, one is agreeing with the state's apologists who repeatedly assert that, yes, voting means the voter acquiesces to the results of the election and the state overall.
    They don't stop there, though. Herbert Spencer notes that, in the minds of the voting-as-consent ideologues, not voting counts as consent too. As does voting against the victorious side in any election. Thus, it is claimed:
    [T]he citizen is understood to have assented to everything his representative may do, when he voted for him.
    But suppose he did not vote for him; and on the contrary did all in his power to get elected some one holding opposite views – what then?
    The reply will probably be that, by taking part in such an election, he tacitly agreed to abide by the decision of the majority.
    And how if he did not vote at all?
    Why then he cannot justly complain of any tax, seeing that he made no protest against its imposition.
    So, curiously enough, it seems that he gave his consent in whatever way he acted – whether he said yes, whether he said no, or whether he remained neuter!
    A rather awkward doctrine this.
    Here stands an unfortunate citizen who is asked if he will pay money for a certain proffered advantage; and whether he employs the only means of expressing his refusal or does not employ it, we are told that he practically agrees; if only the number of others who agree is greater than the number of those who dissent.
    And thus we are introduced to the novel principle that A’s consent to a thing is not determined by what A says, but by what B may happen to say!
    The only alternative, we are told, is to move thousands of miles from friends, family, and property, learn a new culture (and probably a new language), and take up residence under a different regime..
    To define consent in this manner, though, sets the bar of consent so low as to render it utterly meaningless.
    "No" Doesn't Mean "No" After All?

    The horrors of such a definition can be plainly seen if applied to the case of women and sexual consent. By the logic of the sort of "consent" Spencer describes, we are forced to conclude: if a women says "yes," she consents. If she says "no," she also consents. If she can't run away, then she's still consenting.
    One suspects that this would not be a terribly successful argument if employed by a rapist in a court of law.
    And yet, here we are, being told that no matter what you do at election time, nothing — short of self-imposed exile —is to be interpreted as actual opposition to the state.

    More at: https://mises.org/wire/no-voting-doe...support-system
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #2
    That is like saying I do not support Sharia Law, but I will participate in its process.

    Like a bird, it is one single centralist government, with a left wing and a right wing. Without either wing, it cannot fly. Neither wing of the single government advocates/defends Individual Liberty; if you do not abide by their dictate and pay the extortion (taxes), you are the enemy that will be dealt with.

    All this bickering, even among politicians, is "hey, you are not playing by the rules we force upon you". So, folks meet up in their court system to work out the quirks. Don't bring any Jury Null material into that room lest you be cuffed.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3)

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    That is like saying I do not support Sharia Law, but I will participate in its process.

    Like a bird, it is one single centralist government, with a left wing and a right wing. Without either wing, it cannot fly. Neither wing of the single government advocates/defends Individual Liberty; if you do not abide by their dictate and pay the extortion (taxes), you are the enemy that will be dealt with.

    All this bickering, even among politicians, is "hey, you are not playing by the rules we force upon you". So, folks meet up in their court system to work out the quirks. Don't bring any Jury Null material into that room lest you be cuffed.
    It flies just fine without your vote.
    Silence is consent.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  5. #4
    I'm not taking sides here but if i can add my two cents please hear me out. We all want the same thing,i think, but we are regressing the cause of liberty if we think the state is going away over night or possibly ever. It's here because it works and we haven't got workable alternative.

    Here is a book i found some time ago with some profound insight about how societies and their individuals progressed from status,or cast in the case of India, to western ideals of individual autonomy by contract. I hope more members of RPF would pick it up and give it a read.

    https://archive.org/details/ancientlaw030840mbp/page/n8
    Last edited by tommyrp12; 11-12-2019 at 07:18 PM.

  6. #5
    Well I think you all know my position on this.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  7. #6
    I vote twice and often, then I change races and vote twice again.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Well I think you all know my position on this.
    I do , Potholes , and yea I'm right there with ya............

  9. #8
    Excellent points that anarchists seem to ignore.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Excellent points that anarchists seem to ignore.
    Anarchists like to claim they have better things to do than to vote, but what would they be doing instead? Attending pot festivals? Making molotov cocktails?
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  12. #10
    According to Dave Mustaine, he supports your system by going to court when he has to.

  13. #11
    If she can't run away, then she's still consenting.

    I can run faster than most women.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  14. #12
    I once heard Warren Beatty say that a person is political by commission or omission. Guess that's a takeoff on Pericles' Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you.

    "Politics" isn't just the crap on TV. It's really everything. Anytime you get two people together--there's politics. Politics is who gets what, when, and how. Okay, a teacher told me that, so I have nothing original.

    Three thoughts is approaching mental masturbation, so time to think about the final race at Miami this Sunday.
    Last edited by NorthCarolinaLiberty; 11-12-2019 at 08:52 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
    I once heard Warren Beatty say that a person is political by commission or omission. Guess that's a takeoff on Pericles' Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you.

    "Politics" isn't just the crap on TV. It's really everything. Anytime you get two people together--there's politics. Politics is who gets what, when, and how. Okay, a teacher told me that, so I have nothing original.

    Three thoughts is approaching mental masturbation, so time to think about the final race at Miami this Sunday.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Rush!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  17. #15
    The Dump vs Hilary is a dilemma, for sure. I can see both sides here.

    I still would never vote for Dump. The deal breaker is eminent domain. I can be practical and bend on a lot of things, but not on that one. You gots to draw the line somewhere. Taking someone's home by using government for his own personal gain. F-ck him.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
    The Dump vs Hilary is a dilemma, for sure. I can see both sides here.

    I still would never vote for Dump. The deal breaker is eminent domain. I can be practical and bend on a lot of things, but not on that one. You gots to draw the line somewhere. Taking someone's home by using government for his own personal gain. F-ck him.
    That was one of my reasons for not trusting him in 2016 and writing in Ron Paul.
    If you can't vote for him in 2020 that's up to you.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Well I think you all know my position on this.
    To vote harder and harder each election cycle?
    "Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."

    Calvin Coolidge

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Anarchists like to claim they have better things to do than to vote, but what would they be doing instead? Attending pot festivals? Making molotov cocktails?
    A Proper Molotov is an Art Form.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Globalist View Post
    To vote harder and harder each election cycle?
    Yes!

    About time someone around here gets it. I was beginning to think this forum was full of hopeless do-nothing's who stay at home on election day.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It flies just fine without your vote.
    Silence is consent.
    I think it’s funny (not), that when you vote “Republican”, you believe that you are automatically getting Republican values. Instead, you have to teach (plead) republican politicians what Republican values are, and scrape and claw for them to do the right things. Which they don’t. Unless it’s a bone here and there to keep you going back for more.

    Live as an obedient peasant chasing crumbs, or live life to its fullest possible as an Agorist. I choose the latter ;-)
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3)

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    I think it’s funny (not), that when you vote “Republican”, you believe that you are automatically getting Republican values. Instead, you have to teach (plead) republican politicians what Republican values are, and scrape and claw for them to do the right things. Which they don’t. Unless it’s a bone here and there to keep you going back for more.

    Live as an obedient peasant chasing crumbs, or live life to its fullest possible as an Agorist. I choose the latter ;-)
    You allow the worst to happen, I push things in a better direction.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You allow the worst to happen, I push things in a better direction.
    I did not appreciate the largest omnibus, or the most massive and climbing debt, in U.S. history. Please, don’t help anymore. Every time I hear “better direction”, I tell myself, here we f$(king go again.

    If you look hard enough, you can find fun in other ways. Trust me on that ;-)
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3)

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    I did not appreciate the largest omnibus, or the most massive and climbing debt, in U.S. history. Please, don’t help anymore. Every time I hear “better direction”, I tell myself, here we f$(king go again.

    If you look hard enough, you can find fun in other ways. Trust me on that ;-)
    You allow much worse.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  27. #24
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!



  28. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  29. #25
    Voting means that the voter either:

    (a) wants to change the outcome and doesn't understand math

    or, (b) knows that his vote will affect nothing, but does it for kicks of some kind
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Voting means that the voter either:

    (a) wants to change the outcome and doesn't understand math

    or, (b) knows that his vote will affect nothing, but does it for kicks of some kind
    Not true. I've done the math and a candidate who gets my vote is 78% more likely to win than a candidate who does not. I'm pretty good at voting.

    And you don't do it "for kicks". You do it because its your duty. Or you do it for the "I Voted" sticker. Both are valid reasons.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Not true. I've done the math and a candidate who gets my vote is 78% more likely to win than a candidate who does not. I'm pretty good at voting.

    And you don't do it "for kicks". You do it because its your duty. Or you do it for the "I Voted" sticker. Both are valid reasons.
    Well, my model doesn't take skill into account.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken



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