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Thread: Impeachment of Trump would be an unconstitutional attainder

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    So you think there are no due process requirements for an investigation?
    And impeachment is not merely an investigation either, it is impeachment.
    The comparison to a Grand Jury has been made and while there are differences it is accurate as far as it goes and a Grand Jury absolutely is a judicial proceeding and is bound by Due Process.

    This is an unjustifiable witch hunt and an attainder.
    You sticking with your claim. Ok. Nobody is believing you. Repeating it does not make it any truer- it just reveals your ignorance of the process (or willful lying to try to get a good spin on it). Is that what your Internet Guidebook says you should be saying about the issue?

    This is not a Grand Jury. It is not yet a judicial proceeding. It is looking into whether or not there should be a judicial procedure.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 11-05-2019 at 05:40 PM.



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law
    Which of those are involved?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    You sticking with your claim. Ok. Nobody is believing you. Repeating it does not make it any truer- it just reveals your ignorance of the process (or willful lying to try to get a good spin on it).

    This is not a Grand Jury. It is not yet a judicial proceeding. It is looking into whether or not there should be a judicial procedure.
    You can lie and spin all you want but it doesn't change the facts.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Which of those are involved?
    Property, the office of President is his property for a full term after the voters gave it to him.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Property, the office of President is his property for a full term after the voters gave it to him.
    That is as laughably stupid as it is offensive.



    No one owns a government position.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    That is as laughably stupid as it is offensive.



    No one owns a government position.
    They own it just as much a a lessee own the apartment he leased, the voters gave them a right to it and they can't be removed before the end of their term unless due process is followed.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    They own it just as much a a lessee own the apartment he leased, the voters gave them a right to it and they can't be removed before the end of their term unless due process is followed.
    It's fascinating to me how you can simultaneously claim to be adhering to the Constitution while also lying fervently about its contents.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  10. #68
    https://history.house.gov/Institutio...t/Impeachment/

    “The President, Vice President and all Civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.”
    — U.S. Constitution, Article II, section 4


    The Constitution gives the House of Representatives the sole power to impeach an official, and it makes the Senate the sole court for impeachment trials. The power of impeachment is limited to removal from office but also provides for a removed officer to be disqualified from holding future office. Fines and potential jail time for crimes committed while in office are left to civil courts.
    More at link.

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    It's fascinating to me how you can simultaneously claim to be adhering to the Constitution while also lying fervently about its contents.
    Projection.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Which doesn't exempt them from the requirements of Due Process.
    An impeachment without due process would be an attainder.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Which doesn't exempt them from the requirements of Due Process.
    An impeachment without due process would be an attainder.
    Repeating yourself doesn't make it any more true even if your Internet Guidebook says that is the words you should use. This is not an attainder.

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That is not what they are doing, they are inventing crimes that don't exist and going on a fishing expedition without probable cause or a crime to investigate among the many other violations they are committing.

    And their lies and defamation are absolutely a harm inflicted on the President and the country.
    That’s like, your opinion, man.



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  16. #73
    House Resolution 660 is a false and maliciously dishonest legislative maneuver by Speaker Nancy Pelosi, intended retroactively to inoculate Rep. Adam Schiff (D-CA), et al. from their earlier "inquiry" abuses, and possible criminality. Criminality? Yes -- abuse of power on a grand scale, as well as the violation of individual rights and constitutional due process guarantees can be criminal. Speaker Pelosi's unilateral declaration on September 24, 2019, of an "official inquiry," now bears the phony, partisan imprimatur of the House of Representatives, by a slim margin of 232-196.
    We are not witnessing a legitimate impeachment process, and certainly not any form of justice recognizable in America since the Massachusetts Spring of 1693. Let's examine the particular dishonest elements of Pelosi's "Open and transparent investigative proceedings by the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence" -- that's Section 2 of her Resolution.

    • Schiff, unilaterally, decides "witness testimony relevant to the investigation."
    • Schiff, unilaterally, controls subpoena authority.
    • Schiff, unilaterally, controls record production and evidence designation.
    • Schiff, unilaterally, controls written interrogatories.
    • Schiff, unilaterally, controls the outcome of Minority referrals to the Committee for reconsideration.
    • Schiff, unilaterally, controls all transcripts, to include: release, redactions and edits.
    • Schiff, unilaterally, controls "custody of records or other materials relating to the inquiry."
    • Schiff, unilaterally, controls the final report.

    "Open and transparent" -- right.
    I have written previously of the Schiff committee's "Star Chamber" characteristics and activities. Now, with House Resolution 660, the aberration is the norm. Interestingly, opposition to the resolution was bipartisan: Two Democrats -- Van Drew (NJ) and Peterson (MN) -- joined all the Republicans and voted "No". With Pelosi's slim 36-vote margin of "victory", the House of Representatives has engaged and enacted the odious philosophical principles of Legal Positivism -- the perversion antithetical to the Founders' Natural Law foundations in our Constitution. Legal Positivism gives us: "We say it's legal, so it is." Think about the historical lessons of that mephitic mentality. How does that end?

    Setting aside the Senate's "Benedict Arnold Caucus" of weak, self-promoting, Establishment types – the phony "Impeachment" (predicated on the lies embroidered by Schiff from the criminal leaker and political operative masquerading as a "whistleblower") will fail. It will fail in the Senate in a bipartisan fashion. There may not even be a trial, per se, as contemplated in the Constitution. The Senate can take the matter up and summarily dismiss it. That is what should happen -- pray Senator Mitch McConnell (a master of parliamentary procedure) rises to the occasion.

    More at: https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1...ent-resolution
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #74
    There are reasons for the due process guarantees enshrined in the Constitution. And if you want insight into those reasons, look no further than California Rep. Adam Schiff’s secret impeachment process. Schiff is a liar, and now House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is going to ask the House to rhetorically swear to his lies in a resolution slated for a vote this Thursday. Doubling-down on corruption is the hallmark of the anti-Trump left.
    The investigation Schiff is secretly stage-managing is akin to the types of sham judicial proceedings common in England in the middle of the last millennium. Schiff’s procedurally bizarre and legally abusive “inquiry” has all the characteristics of the notorious Star Chamber, an institution used by the British Crown to oppress and terrorize political opponents while claiming to uphold the very rights and processes it destroyed.

    It was a political weapon operating in secret with carefully selected, sometimes coerced (i.e., tortured) or coached witnesses, that hauled up defendants on subjective and elastic charges like sedition, libel and “heresy,” which could be warped to fit the outcome being sought. If pressed, the Star Chamber could punish people for acts it deemed “morally reprehensible” even though technically legal.
    Starting to sound familiar? The American tradition of due process evolved as an antidote to these types of arbitrary proceedings that were used to oppress the same groups of religious and political dissenters who founded our nation. The Fifth Amendment’s protection against self-incrimination is a direct response to Star Chamber tactics where no such right existed, forcing those facing a sham trial to either admit their guilt to a made-up crime, commit perjury if they tried to argue their innocence, or be charged with contempt if they remained silent. General Michael Flynn’s ears are probably ringing.
    House Democrats have been using or threatening to use all these techniques in their political vendetta against President Trump. They hold their proceedings in a secure basement facility, they exploit the whistleblower laws to keep witnesses anonymous, they do not allow the accused or his legal representatives to question the witnesses. And all we can know about the process is what they decide to let us know.
    But this is not enough for some. Rep. John Garamendi (D-Calif.) has suggested that the House needs to “go all out” in coercing witnesses, and those members of the administration who choose not to cooperate with this sham process should be held in “inherent contempt” and “march[ed] off to our little jail” to “sit there and cool off for a while.”
    Inherent contempt is a little-used “hurry up” process that allows the legislature to seize and detain, or more commonly fine those who offend it. This affront to habeas corpus rights has been upheld by the Supreme Court in the past and may soon be tested again. This is the background to Attorney General William Barr’s humorous barb at House Speaker Nancy Pelosi at a Capitol Hill event last spring, “Madam Speaker, did you bring your handcuffs?”
    As with the Star Chamber, it is unclear what supposed high crimes are being investigated. Most of what has been selectively leaked tells the story of Congress weaponizing mere policy differences with the White House seeking to disrupt the old ways of doing business. Or Democrats trying to protect a former vice president whose son was involved in shady dealings in Ukraine. Or, most likely, an attempt to overshadow what promises to be the political scandal of the century when the Obama administration’s criminal abuse of federal intelligence and law enforcement powers to rig the 2016 election is revealed. But the process is reminiscent of another English excess our founders banned, the Bill of Attainder, a legislative judgement of guilt that overrides the separation of powers and denies those subject to it due process.
    Now Democrats propose voting on a House Resolution, “Directing certain committees to continue their ongoing investigations as part of the existing House of Representatives inquiry.” This is a pathetically transparent attempt to retroactively inoculate Schiff, et al. from their earlier abuses, and possible criminality. The House resolution is craftily drafted with weasel words, extraordinary deference to the whims of the chairmen (Schiff and Judiciary Chair Rep. Jerry Nadler and procedural “outs” to continue to deprive the minority of any real participation.

    More at: https://dailycaller.com/2019/10/30/f...-star-chamber/
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Repeating yourself doesn't make it any more true even if your Internet Guidebook says that is the words you should use. This is not an attainder.
    Swordsmyth is stating facts. An opinion would be you saying Democrats don’t like Donald Trump because you don’t agree with the issues but instead Democrats make things up about him.

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Slave Mentality View Post
    That’s like, your opinion, man.
    No, it's fact.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Impeachment is subject to all the same Constitutional principles and laws as any other judicial proceeding.
    No it isn't. For example, the 6th Amendment applies only to criminal proceedings; impeachment is a civil proceeding with one purpose: to determine whether there should be a trial in the Senate to decide whether a federal official should be removed from office. Your citing the 6th Amendment simply demonstrates you haven't a clue.

    Moreover, all this blather about lack of due process and the House's process being a bill of attainder (an astonishingly absurd claim) has no legal significance whatsoever. Impeachment proceedings are nonjusticiable. See Nixon v. United States, 506 U.S. 224 (1993). No, not tricky Dick; a federal judge named Walter F. Nixon, Jr. challenged his conviction by the Senate. The Court held that because the Constitution states that the Senate has the sole power to try an impeachment the courts cannot second-guess its procedures. The word "sole" appears only one other time in the Constitution -- the House has the "sole" power of impeachment -- so the Nixon case would presumably apply to the House proceedings as well.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You can lie and spin all you want but it doesn't change the facts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Property, the office of President is his property for a full term after the voters gave it to him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    They own it just as much a a lessee own the apartment he leased, the voters gave them a right to it and they can't be removed before the end of their term unless due process is followed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Projection.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Which doesn't exempt them from the requirements of Due Process.
    An impeachment without due process would be an attainder.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    No, it's fact.
    No, this impeachment is not following the normal and proper course for impeachment proceedings, and yes, it smells like a "star chamber".

    And your blather isn't highlighting the fact. There's enough b.s. in there to distract from that fact. Indeed, you're sprinkling in just enough b.s. to make people say, what the Democrats are doing smells wrong, but if it were really wrong, would this GOP tool be lying about it?

    You don't seem to even be trying to make a point. You seem to be merely stirring $#!+.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 11-06-2019 at 10:40 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  22. #79
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Grasping for straws. A "Bill of Attainder" is finding some body guilty without a trial. Impeachment is the filing of charges which would then be investigated in a trial in the Senate. Impeachment is not a "Bill of Attainder". Impeachment is specifically allowed under the Constitution.



    http://www.techlawjournal.com/glossa.../attainder.htm

    Trump would not be punished unless following the trial two thirds of the Senate found him guilty. The House cannot impose any punishments.
    Your definition makes every IRS judgment without trial a bill of attainder. So they should all be rounded up and arrested for violating the Constitution right?

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Chester Copperpot View Post
    Your definition makes every IRS judgment without trial a bill of attainder. So they should all be rounded up and arrested for violating the Constitution right?
    A bill of attainder is a finding of criminal guilt without trial that inflicts punishment. An IRS determination that someone has a tax deficiency is a civil matter that can be reviewed by a court.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    A bill of attainder is a finding of criminal guilt without trial that inflicts punishment. An IRS determination that someone has a tax deficiency is a civil matter that can be reviewed by a court.
    Meh.

    The IRS has always pushed that envelope with usurous interest rates no private party is allowed to charge, which are de facto fines but aren't called fines. And they love to charge people with things like perjury.

    They skate the line. They also scrounge the money that keeps the lights on in the courthouse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  26. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Projection.
    Sure thing.

    Lemme know when you find ownership of the presidency in the Constitution or literally any writing of any one of the founding fathers.



    If you had ever read or understood a single word of their contemporary writings, you couldn't possibly come to that "opinion."
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    The IRS has always pushed that envelope with usurous interest rates no private party is allowed to charge, which are de facto fines but aren't called fines.
    The current rate on past-due taxes is 5%, well below any usury limit. Interest isn't a fine; it's simply interest on a past-due debt. If you overpay your taxes you get interest on the overpayment if you don't receive your refund timely. Does that mean you're imposing a fine on the government?

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    And they love to charge people with things like perjury.
    If someone files a false return it may impose a fraud penalty but it doesn't get to bring perjury charges; only the DOJ gets to do that.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Sure thing.

    Lemme know when you find ownership of the presidency in the Constitution or literally any writing of any one of the founding fathers.



    If you had ever read or understood a single word of their contemporary writings, you couldn't possibly come to that "opinion."
    Imagine that, instead of resigning, Tom Vilsack had told Trump that he "owns the office of Secretary of Agriculture".

    Imagine the howling the people trying to make this silly argument would have done.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    The current rate on past-due taxes is 5%, well below any usury limit. Interest isn't a fine; it's simply interest on a past-due debt. If you overpay your taxes you get interest on the overpayment if you don't receive your refund timely. Does that mean you're imposing a fine on the government?
    1. The rate fluctuates with the Federal Short Term rate. The only time corporations pay only five percent is when that short term rate is zero.

    https://www.irs.gov/irm/part20/irm_20-002-001r

    2. That's current law.

    3. Fact is, there are penalties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    If someone files a false return it may impose a fraud penalty but it doesn't get to bring perjury charges; only the DOJ gets to do that.
    And who scrounges the money that keeps the lights on at the DoJ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  30. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Too many to count.
    Probable cause for an investigation is completely lacking being the first and largest.
    Investigations are based on reasonable suspicion. Indictment requires probable cause.

    https://www.taylorlawco.com/blog/rea...difference.cfm

    Edit: And it's important for Trump's defense team to highlight that. Trump had reasonable suspicion to ask the president of Ukraine for an investigation into Joe Biden strong arming Ukraine to fire a prosecutor. Biden defenders keep saying "But there was no evidence that Joe Biden or Hunter Biden committed a crime." Maybe, maybe not. But there was certainly reasonable suspicion.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 11-06-2019 at 02:54 PM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  31. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    1. The rate fluctuates with the Federal Short Term rate. The only time corporations pay only five percent is when that short term rate is zero.
    Er, no. The normal underpayment rate is the short term rate plus 3%; for a C corporation that underpays its tax by more than $100,000, it's the short term rate plus 5%. The current short term rate is 1.68%, which per the statute is rounded up to 2% for purposes of calculating the normal underpayment rate.

    The federal short term rate would have to be enormous (anyone else remember the late 1970's?) for the underpayment rate to be usurious.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Investigations are based on reasonable suspicion. Indictment requires probable cause.

    https://www.taylorlawco.com/blog/rea...difference.cfm

    Edit: And it's important for Trump's defense team to highlight that. Trump had reasonable suspicion to ask the president of Ukraine for an investigation into Joe Biden strong arming Ukraine to fire a prosecutor. Biden defenders keep saying "But there was no evidence that Joe Biden or Hunter Biden committed a crime." Maybe, maybe not. But there was certainly reasonable suspicion.
    Whatever specific legal term applies doesn't matter because none of them exist for the "impeachment" of Trump.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  34. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    No it isn't. For example, the 6th Amendment applies only to criminal proceedings; impeachment is a civil proceeding with one purpose: to determine whether there should be a trial in the Senate to decide whether a federal official should be removed from office. Your citing the 6th Amendment simply demonstrates you haven't a clue.

    Moreover, all this blather about lack of due process and the House's process being a bill of attainder (an astonishingly absurd claim) has no legal significance whatsoever. Impeachment proceedings are nonjusticiable. See Nixon v. United States, 506 U.S. 224 (1993). No, not tricky Dick; a federal judge named Walter F. Nixon, Jr. challenged his conviction by the Senate. The Court held that because the Constitution states that the Senate has the sole power to try an impeachment the courts cannot second-guess its procedures. The word "sole" appears only one other time in the Constitution -- the House has the "sole" power of impeachment -- so the Nixon case would presumably apply to the House proceedings as well.
    That's a bad ruling but even it doesn't say that the subject of an impeachment has no rights, it just says they can't appeal, normally the Supreme Court is the final appeal but that doesn't mean they can ignore your rights.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Imagine that, instead of resigning, Tom Vilsack had told Trump that he "owns the office of Secretary of Agriculture".

    Imagine the howling the people trying to make this silly argument would have done.
    The President has the right to take the office from him for any or no reason as the head of the Executive branch, that's entirely different.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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