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Thread: Progressive Consumption Tax

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    As I said earlier, a minarchist land tax isn't going to be high enough for anyone to need to make the choice between living on Earth and jumping off a cliff. In reality, the choice will be between living on cheaper, lower-taxed land and living on more expensive, higher-taxed land (just as it is at present, with land taxes many times higher than what they'd need to be to finance a minarchist state). Isn't that very much like the choice between buying less/less expensive goods and paying less sales tax and buying more/more expensive goods and paying more sales tax?
    The difference is that one is inhibiting progress (if you are talking about durable goods) or limiting your level of luxury (if it is a consumable) while the other is taking you backwards.
    On way you have some level of say in how much taxes you pay by deciding what and how much to buy while the other way you have no say and no choice.

    I'll take not being forced backwards and the ability to affect how much I pay in taxes over having no choice and losing things I already have any time.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The difference is that one is inhibiting progress (if you are talking about durable goods) or limiting your level of luxury (if it is a consumable) while the other is taking you backwards.
    On way you have some level of say in how much taxes you pay by deciding what and how much to buy while the other way you have no say and no choice.

    I'll take not being forced backwards and the ability to affect how much I pay in taxes over having no choice and losing things I already have any time.
    Either way, you have a choice as to what you lose.

    Buy expensive widgets instead of cheap widgets? Shucks, no money for gadgets (because of additional sales tax you paid)

    Rent expensive apartment instead of cheap apartment? Shucks, no money for gadgets (because of additional property tax you paid)
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Either way, you have a choice as to what you lose.

    Buy expensive widgets instead of cheap widgets? Shucks, no money for gadgets (because of additional sales tax you paid)

    Rent expensive apartment instead of cheap apartment? Shucks, no money for gadgets (because of additional property tax you paid)
    If there is no property tax you are not renting from the state and if you bought an expensive house in a good year you aren't forced to lose it in a bad year.
    That's the important difference.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    If there is no property tax you are not renting from the state
    That's just a slogan.

    You could make up a similarly evil-sounding slogan for any kind of tax.

    "If there's no sales tax, you aren't paying the state for the right to buy things."

    "If there's no income tax, you aren't paying the state for the right to work."

    and if you bought an expensive house in a good year you aren't forced to lose it in a bad year.
    That's the important difference.
    I don't know why you're focused on that particular harm, as if it's worse than the others.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That's just a slogan.

    You could make up a similarly evil-sounding slogan for any kind of tax.

    "If there's no sales tax, you aren't paying the state for the right to buy things."

    "If there's no income tax, you aren't paying the state for the right to work."
    I mentioned it because you responded to a discussion of property tax (which is primarily paid by owners) with a comment about renting.
    I wanted to remind you that without property tax land would be like most other assets and not require a constant stream of money to keep it.



    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I don't know why you're focused on that particular harm, as if it's worse than the others.
    I am focused on any form of wealth tax that can force you backwards as opposed to a sales/excise tax that can be avoided.

    And (as I keep pointing out) a sales/excise tax allows market forces to improve the distribution of the tax burden instead of it being solely determined by central planners.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #36
    //
    Last edited by Swordsmyth; 10-28-2019 at 02:19 AM.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I mentioned it because you responded to a discussion of property tax (which is primarily paid by owners) with a comment about renting.
    I'm not sure that I follow, but note that renters also pay property tax, albeit indirectly.

    I wanted to remind you that without property tax land would be like most other assets and not require a constant stream of money to keep it.
    Unless we're talking about virgin land, it always requires a stream of money to keep it (at least in a profitable state).

    And, again, I just don't share your interest in some of these distinctions: to me, it's all theft, with the method being unimportant.

    ...except as to how efficient it is, and it's on that basis that I favor a land tax.

    I am focused on any form of wealth tax that can force you backwards as opposed to a sales/excise tax that can be avoided.
    No need to go round in circles but, suffice it to say, I don't see how the one tax "forces you backwards" and the other doesn't, at least not in any sense that means anything or is important. The fact that land tax can result in a person being deprived of something they already posses, while sales tax can't (directly), isn't important IMO. Sales tax harms people in a different way, which doesn't strike me as a less bad way.

    And (as I keep pointing out) a sales/excise tax allows market forces to improve the distribution of the tax burden instead of it being solely determined by central planners.
    You keep saying that, but it's not clear to me what that actually means. If it means that a sales tax gives people the option to either overpay for what they want and therefore forgo something else, or forgo getting the overpriced thing they want so that they buy something else, the same's true for land tax. I explained this in post #32.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    You keep saying that, but it's not clear to me what that actually means. If it means that a sales tax gives people the option to either overpay for what they want and therefore forgo something else, or forgo getting the overpriced thing they want so that they buy something else, the same's true for land tax. I explained this in post #32.
    The sellers also get to decide if they are going to cut their prices to compensate for some or all of the tax.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The sellers also get to decide if they are going to cut their prices to compensate for some or all of the tax.
    Yes, and they will cut prices and thus lose profits to some extent; not all taxes on business are passed on to consumers.

    But I don't know why that would be an improvement.

    That just means the businessman gets to make the unfortunate trade-off rather than the consumer.

    There's no free lunch.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Yes, and they will cut prices and thus lose profits to some extent; not all taxes on business are passed on to consumers.

    But I don't know why that would be an improvement.

    That just means the businessman gets to make the unfortunate trade-off rather than the consumer.

    There's no free lunch.
    Market forces > Central planning.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Market forces > Central planning.
    I can't imagine why you think a land tax is central planning while a sales tax isn't.

    Both are interventions in the market, obviously, but beyond that...

    I guess we've reached an impasse.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    I like this idea. The way it would work is you have zero income tax, capital gains tax, corporate income tax, and inheritance tax. You take wage income - 401k contribution (which would be unlimited) and business investment and you are left with consumption dollars. Those dollars would be taxed at a steeply progressive rate.

    So a person like Warren Buffett or Bill Gates would be able to accumulate a lot money because they live frugal lifestyles. They reinvest money to grow business. A person like Floyd Mayweather who earns a high income but spends it all might be taxed at 80%. A person who earns 20k and spends it all might be taxed at zero.

    Ultimately all taxes are taxes on consumption but this system wouldn't punish people who delay consumption and wanted to grow money through investment. It would also make it easier for a wage earner to accumulate capital. But it would punish people when they finally start drawing on the income. So the heirs of people who just want to live on a fortune would be taxed at very high rates. You might tax someone who wanted to spend 100 million of Buffett's money at 100%. But those same heirs who take over a family business could continue to grow it without paying any tax other than the wage income they take of the business.

    Seems like this would accomplish the goals of progressives who want to eliminate dynastic wealth of profligate heirs but at the same time wouldn't discourage people from accumulating that wealth.
    Does this system not punish those that stimulate economies ?

    How does Gates style hording , amassing , greed, and avarice stimulate or even sustain economies ?

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I can't imagine why you think a land tax is central planning while a sales tax isn't.

    Both are interventions in the market, obviously, but beyond that...

    I guess we've reached an impasse.
    Both involve central planning as would any tax, but the sales tax involves some market forces in determining it's impact distribution.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    Does this system not punish those that stimulate economies ?

    How does Gates style hording , amassing , greed, and avarice stimulate or even sustain economies ?
    Capital reinvestment is the single most important driver of the well being in a country. Even Keynes said this. Capital spending and consumer spending both count the same in the way you mean. And in the case of Gates just putting money into an interest bearing account increases loanable funds and is future consumption.

    See Keynes equation GDP = private consumption + gross investment + government investment + government spending + (exports – imports).

    Bill Gates is a hero. I don't know how to respond to loser talk like "avarice" and "greed" or economic nonsense words like "hoarding". Maybe read Atlas Shrugged and Economics in One Lesson to get the right foundation.
    Last edited by Krugminator2; 10-28-2019 at 07:31 PM.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Capital reinvestment is the single most important driver of the well being in a country. Even Keynes said this. Capital spending and consumer spending both count the same in the way you mean. And in the case of Gates just putting money into an interest bearing account increases loanable funds and is future consumption.

    See Keynes equation GDP = private consumption + gross investment + government investment + government spending + (exports – imports).

    Bill Gates is a hero. I don't know how to respond to loser talk like "avarice" and "greed" or economic nonsense words like "hoarding". Maybe read Atlas Shrugged and Economics in One Lesson to get the right foundation.
    Well there you go you just turned a civil conversation into one of insults , so fk you and the horse you rode in on.

    Avarice, greed, and hording is what can easily be cast on Bill Gates, you might add narcissism and
    desire to re engineer humanity.

    Again, go fk yourself with your insults.


  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    Well there you go you just turned a civil conversation into one of insults , so fk you and the horse you rode in on.

    Avarice, greed, and hording is what can easily be cast on Bill Gates, you might add narcissism and
    desire to re engineer humanity.

    Again, go fk yourself with your insults.

    I didn't insult you personally. I did insult the words you used. Calling successful people greedy is loser talk. The relatively few truly remarkable people like Gates should be glorified because they propel humanity forward. Confiscating the wealth he uses to grow his business to give to government is a massive waste.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    I didn't insult you personally. I did insult the words you used. Calling successful people greedy is loser talk. The relatively few truly remarkable people like Gates should be glorified because they propel humanity forward. Confiscating the wealth he uses to grow his business to give to government is a massive waste.

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