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Thread: Unpaid bills pile up in Trump ralliesí wake

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    So no source then?

    Target Center is owned by the city of Minneapolis btw. Literally 2 seconds to search found that info. Kinda important to the story, no?
    AEG Facility Caught in Political Crossfire as Trump Threatens to Sue Target Center, City of Minneapolis


    The President’s reelection campaign threatened to sue the arena for breach of contract after arena officials insisted the campaign incur the $530,000 price tag for additional security at the event.



    https://www.billboard.com/articles/b...curity-lawsuit
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    The city does not manage the contracts or day to day operations of the facility, a private company does.
    The Target Center is not private.

    Still waiting on the source for that claim about a contract already being signed. That's also kinda important to get to the bottom of it.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    The Target Center is not private.

    Still waiting on the source for that claim about a contract already being signed. That's also kinda important to get to the bottom of it.
    Doneski

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post6871663
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Rather important part of the contract (license agreement) in your posted article:
    Noting that the arena’s license agreement requires the White House to "pay for any law enforcement services necessary for the Event,” the city estimated the security costs for the Keep America Great rally scheduled for Thursday would total $530,000
    That means the amount wasn't specified in the contract and could have been anything the free market called for. Yes, the free market can be politically motivated. See: gay cakes. Any way, the amount has been settled. The lesson is don't sign contracts with open ended cost terms in politically hostile territory. The free market might make you pay a hefty sum.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

    Israel, under control of the Crown and, ultimately, the Vatican, own the USA. If you don't know this by now....

    Talk to people about liberty. You won't find it on websites, you won't find it in politicians.

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  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    Rather important part of the contract (license agreement) in your posted article:


    That means the amount wasn't specified in the contract and could have been anything the free market called for. Yes, the free market can be politically motivated. See: gay cakes. Any way, the amount has been settled. The lesson is don't sign contracts with open ended cost terms in politically hostile territory. The free market might make you pay a hefty sum.
    Fraudulent costs aren't the free market, if Trump can prove the law enforcement doesn't cost that much (which should be easy because they charged far less to others) then the city doesn't have a leg to stand on.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    Odd to see "free marketeers" arguing that Minneapolis isn't being fair with rally cost pricing, requiring up front payment and deciding what rate they want to charge for their services. Sounds like free market in operation to me.
    Huh? There is nothing at all free market about this situation.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    Huh? There is nothing at all free market about this situation.
    A corporation is charging another corporation what they want to in exchange for their services, under a supply and demand model. Seems pretty market-based to me. Whether one agrees with the rate is subjective.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

    Israel, under control of the Crown and, ultimately, the Vatican, own the USA. If you don't know this by now....

    Talk to people about liberty. You won't find it on websites, you won't find it in politicians.

    Visiting the Outer Banks of NC?
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  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    A corporation is charging another corporation what they want to in exchange for their services, under a supply and demand model. Seems pretty market-based to me. Whether one agrees with the rate is subjective.
    Wrong.

    A government is charging for services it owes the public in return for taxes already charged and then lying about how much they cost.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    A corporation is charging another corporation what they want to in exchange for their services, under a supply and demand model. Seems pretty market-based to me. Whether one agrees with the rate is subjective.
    I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation.
    He wants to, he may be required to.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation.
    How so?


    Or are you one of the many that still don't understand that modern governments are actually corporations? As are political campaigns...

    Two corporations entering contracts for services...free market rules of supply and demand should (and in this case, did) apply. Or are you going to argue about political differences not applying to the free market and that "fairness" should be part of the free market? If so, I hope you didn't argue on behalf of bakers refusing to bake cakes for gay couples (political/religious) or ever say that businesses should be able to raise prices to evacuees from hurricanes.
    Last edited by devil21; 10-12-2019 at 11:11 AM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

    Israel, under control of the Crown and, ultimately, the Vatican, own the USA. If you don't know this by now....

    Talk to people about liberty. You won't find it on websites, you won't find it in politicians.

    Visiting the Outer Banks of NC?
    Outer Banks NC Fishing Boat Rentals

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    How so?


    Or are you one of the many that still don't understand that modern governments are actually corporations? As are political campaigns...

    Two corporations entering contracts for services...free market rules of supply and demand should (and in this case, did) apply. Or are you going to argue about political differences not applying to the free market and that "fairness" should be part of the free market? If so, I hope you didn't argue on behalf of bakers refusing to bake cakes for gay couples (political/religious) or ever say that businesses should be able to raise prices to evacuees from hurricanes.
    Are you ever going to address the fact that the city is lying about the cost and that is fraud?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    How so?

    Or are you one of the many that still don't understand that modern governments are actually corporations? As are political campaigns...

    Two corporations entering contracts for services...free market rules of supply and demand should (and in this case, did) apply. Or are you going to argue about political differences not applying to the free market and that "fairness" should be part of the free market? If so, I hope you didn't argue on behalf of bakers refusing to bake cakes for gay couples (political/religious) or ever say that businesses should be able to raise prices to evacuees from hurricanes.
    Nope. You still misunderstand what happened.

    The Target Center had a contract with the Trump Campaign leasing out the venue for the night's rally. Shortly before the scheduled day, radical leftist mayor Jacob Frey attempted to pressure the Target Center with bogus security charges. The Target Center gave into the pressure and then tried to pass the charges onto the Trump Campaign. The Trump Campaign then tells the Target Center to $#@! off and that they are in breach of contract. The Target Center chickens out again, and allows the rally to proceed on original terms.

    So you have a contract in place between the Target Center and the Trump Campaign. You then have a hate-Trump mayor use the full force of government to shake down the Target Center. The Target Center attempts to pass the shakedown onto the Trump Campaign.

    You seriously think this shakedown is free market? Are you suffering from TDS?

    Not that it matters. The Trump Campaign did not pay the extortion and the Target Center followed their original terms. Now that part was free market.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    Nope. You still misunderstand what happened.

    The Target Center had a contract with the Trump Campaign leasing out the venue for the night's rally. Shortly before the scheduled day, radical leftist mayor Jacob Frey attempted to pressure the Target Center with bogus security charges. The Target Center gave into the pressure and then tried to pass the charges onto the Trump Campaign. The Trump Campaign then tells the Target Center to $#@! off and that they are in breach of contract. The Target Center chickens out again, and allows the rally to proceed on original terms.

    So you have a contract in place between the Target Center and the Trump Campaign. You then have a hate-Trump mayor use the full force of government to shake down the Target Center. The Target Center attempts to pass the shakedown onto the Trump Campaign.

    You seriously think this shakedown is free market? Are you suffering from TDS?

    Not that it matters. The Trump Campaign did not pay the extortion and the Target Center followed their original terms. Now that part was free market.
    I guess you missed the part of the thread earlier where it was plainly stated that the security charges in the contract were open ended. How does one breach a contract where the specific terms of the contract are not defined in the contract? Indeed it was resolved and that's good, but saying that it was under the terms of the original contract ignores that the original contract had no specified security fee. Most likely the settlement amount was something higher than what the Trump campaign wanted and something lower than the $500k+.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Are you ever going to address the fact that the city is lying about the cost and that is fraud?
    I don't know if that was the cost or not, nor do you and whether it was the actual cost is irrelevant. Are you suggesting that contracts should only be in the amount of the costs for the selling party? Sounds pretty socialist to prevent the City of Minneapolis (a corporation) and the Target Center (the corporation's property) from profiting from their services and the use of their property. For someone that cries about the dangers of socialism you sure seem to like to apply the principles of socialism (no profit, no free control of private property) when it involves anything Trumptastic.
    Last edited by devil21; 10-13-2019 at 02:18 PM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

    Israel, under control of the Crown and, ultimately, the Vatican, own the USA. If you don't know this by now....

    Talk to people about liberty. You won't find it on websites, you won't find it in politicians.

    Visiting the Outer Banks of NC?
    Outer Banks NC Fishing Boat Rentals

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    I guess you missed the part of the thread earlier where it was plainly stated that the security charges in the contract were open ended. How does one breach a contract where the specific terms of the contract are not defined in the contract? Indeed it was resolved and that's good, but saying that it was under the terms of the original contract ignores that the original contract had no specified security fee. Most likely the settlement amount was something higher than what the Trump campaign wanted and something lower than the $500k+.



    I don't know if that was the cost or not, nor do you and whether it was the actual cost is irrelevant. Are you suggesting that contracts should only be in the amount of the costs for the selling party? Sounds pretty socialist to prevent the City of Minneapolis (a corporation) and the Target Center (the corporation's property) from profiting from their services and the use of their property. For someone that cries about the dangers of socialism you sure seem to like to apply the principles of socialism (no profit, no free control of private property) when it involves anything Trumptastic.
    The cost for protecting/guarding Trump Tower was YUGE & a big deal 2 years ago- funny how no one seems to recall that.

    Officials estimate New York City is spending between $127,000 and $146,000 daily to protect Trump Tower. Most of the costs are related to the New York Police Department. They said they expected the daily cost to rise to $308,000 when Mr. Trump is in the five boroughs.

    The city spent about $24 million to protect Trump Tower between Election Day and Inauguration Day, the officials said.

    Other city agencies, like the Fire Department of New York, have also incurred costs related to Trump Tower. The FDNY has spent at least $1.7 million since Election Day, for example.
    https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics...or-trump-tower
    There is no spoon.

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    I don't know if that was the cost or not, nor do you and whether it was the actual cost is irrelevant. Are you suggesting that contracts should only be in the amount of the costs for the selling party? Sounds pretty socialist to prevent the City of Minneapolis (a corporation) and the Target Center (the corporation's property) from profiting from their services and the use of their property. For someone that cries about the dangers of socialism you sure seem to like to apply the principles of socialism (no profit, no free control of private property) when it involves anything Trumptastic.
    We know that's not the cost of security because the security charge to other campaigns and events was nowhere near as much and we are discussing the security cost clause not the whole contract that already included a profit for the venue.

    And the city failed to provide adequate security so they are in breach of contract in addition to being guilty of fraud.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    I guess you missed the part of the thread earlier where it was plainly stated that the security charges in the contract were open ended. How does one breach a contract where the specific terms of the contract are not defined in the contract? Indeed it was resolved and that's good, but saying that it was under the terms of the original contract ignores that the original contract had no specified security fee. Most likely the settlement amount was something higher than what the Trump campaign wanted and something lower than the $500k+.
    They absolutely were in breach of contract, and that's why they backed down after being called on it.

    If they had done this to Ron Paul in 2008, you'd have been screaming mad.

    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    For someone that cries about the dangers of socialism you sure seem to like to apply the principles of socialism (no profit, no free control of private property) when it involves anything Trumptastic.
    I'm really not sure if you are mistaking me for someone else or not, but I didn't vote for Trump in 2016. And the only reason I'll be voting for him in 2020 is to drive the TDS sufferer such as yourself even more insane than they already are.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    They absolutely were in breach of contract, and that's why they backed down after being called on it.
    You can't just claim breach of contract but not explain how it breached the contract. Trump proclaiming it a breach of contract doesn't make it a breach of contract either. In fact, it sounds like both sides engaged in good old fashioned free-market negotiation (one party wants low cost, other counters with high cost, then resolution is found somewhere in the middle). The bonus is that the Trump campaign got the Trumpkins all spun up in the meantime. Political manipulation 101.

    If they had done this to Ron Paul in 2008, you'd have been screaming mad.
    Maybe. Didn't happen so not relevant.

    I'm really not sure if you are mistaking me for someone else or not, but I didn't vote for Trump in 2016. And the only reason I'll be voting for him in 2020 is to drive the TDS sufferer such as yourself even more insane than they already are.
    I didn't quote you so not sure why you're taking that part personally. But by all means vote for whomever you like and for whatever vapid reasons you come up with. Since you couldn't see that I quoted SS, not you, it seems TDS maybe has two sides?
    Last edited by devil21; 10-14-2019 at 11:17 AM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

    Israel, under control of the Crown and, ultimately, the Vatican, own the USA. If you don't know this by now....

    Talk to people about liberty. You won't find it on websites, you won't find it in politicians.

    Visiting the Outer Banks of NC?
    Outer Banks NC Fishing Boat Rentals



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation.
    TDS will do that to you.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    TDS will do that to you.
    Indeed, it seems to make people lose all rational ability. Now, Trumpkins are crying that there wasn't enough security since some of them allegedly were attacked after the rally. You get what you pay for, I guess. Same as it ever was.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

    Israel, under control of the Crown and, ultimately, the Vatican, own the USA. If you don't know this by now....

    Talk to people about liberty. You won't find it on websites, you won't find it in politicians.

    Visiting the Outer Banks of NC?
    Outer Banks NC Fishing Boat Rentals

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    Indeed, it seems to make people lose all rational ability. Now, Trumpkins are crying that there wasn't enough security since some of them allegedly were attacked after the rally. You get what you pay for, I guess. Same as it ever was.
    Why shouldn't they complain for being overcharged for insufficient security?
    The city wouldn't have provided any better security if their blackmail had been paid if that is what you are implying.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    Trump proclaiming it a breach of contract doesn't make it a breach of contract either.
    This simple fact will never register for the redhats.

    Trump said it. They believe it. That settles it.

    If you dispute it, it's because you're a traitor.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    This simple fact will never register for the redhats.

    Trump said it. They believe it. That settles it.

    If you dispute it, it's because you're a traitor.
    What the hell are you guys even talking about? How can you be getting this so wrong?

    The Target Center is a private vendor. The Target Center had a contract with the Trump Campaign. The city of Minneapolis attempted to get in the middle of a contract between private entities by extorting make believe security fees to the Target Center.

    The contract stated that these costs would not be incurred by the campaign. Additionally, security in these situations is always handled by the Secret Service.

    I'm not saying the tax payer won't end up eating these costs, or that it is right. What I am saying is that the costs clearly were not, as a matter of agreed upon contract, the responsibility of Trump's campaign to pay. The Target Center ultimately knew this, and honored the contract without breaching terms.

    Yea, Trump said it. But it's also true.

    Why must you guys lie about such a non-issue? I thought we were all capitalists here who believed that private parties could engage in commerce in agreed upon terms?
    Last edited by fcreature; 10-15-2019 at 09:50 PM.

  28. #54
    I'll be writing in Ron Paul again, but it doesn't seem like Trump's mislead adherents are provided much security...

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    The Target Center is a private vendor. The Target Center had a contract with the Trump Campaign. The city of Minneapolis attempted to get in the middle of a contract between private entities by extorting make believe security fees to the Target Center.

    The contract stated that these costs would not be incurred by the campaign. Additionally, security in these situations is always handled by the Secret Service.
    What kind of self-immolating Trump worshiper would bother even looking into any of what you just said?

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    What kind of self-immolating Trump worshiper would bother even looking into any of what you just said?
    It's a recurring theme that Trumpkins don't take two moments to research anything before regurgitating whatever the latest Breitbart article claims. Or in this case, even take the time to read the short thread first. The Target Center is owned by the City of Minneapolis. I can't wait to read the mental gymnastics of how the City interfered in a contract about the use of its own property.


    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature
    Why must you guys lie about such a non-issue? I thought we were all capitalists here who believed that private parties could engage in commerce in agreed upon terms?
    You may think it is a non-issue but I think this is actually one of the more relevant discussions that has sprung out of anything Trump related lately. Contracts, free market, ownership, etc with a side of politics. At least it's a Trump related topic with some level of intellectual substance to it, as opposed to the latest nonsense about the FISA court or whatever.
    Last edited by devil21; 10-16-2019 at 11:49 AM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

    Israel, under control of the Crown and, ultimately, the Vatican, own the USA. If you don't know this by now....

    Talk to people about liberty. You won't find it on websites, you won't find it in politicians.

    Visiting the Outer Banks of NC?
    Outer Banks NC Fishing Boat Rentals



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