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Thread: Not Impeachment, But a Coup: a Disgusting Defense of Collapsing Imperial Order

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm View Post
    I think that the Deep State can mean a combination of things, and it's great that it's being discussed openly.

    It's not just the CIA, but all of the intelligence agencies that betray and conspire against us, government entities such as the IRS that have been weaponized against political opponents, and pretty much the entire unelected bureaucracy that remains in power regardless of the will of the people.
    Abolish the CIA, just shut it down. Is there anyone here who doesn't want to shut down the CIA?



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    The Steele dossier is how it got started. That doesn't make it any better. They were certainly part of the machinery though. And Mueller firing them after they helped get the ball rolling doesn't help your argument in the least. https://www.vox.com/2019/11/22/20977...-investigation An inspector general reportedly finds that FBI employee altered a document in Russia investigation I don't have you on ignore. Maybe I should? And for the record, Mr. Troll, I'm one of the most anti-Trump people on this forum. But I still call BS when I see it. Just because people say "Quid pro quo" without evidence doesn't prove quid pro quo. Are you as stupid as you are pretending to be? I hope not. "Quid" doesn't mean "attempt." Quid pro quo means something given for something else. There was something given, aid. There is no evidence that it was given for anything. Certainly it didn't result in anything being received. If he's not innocent....then there should be an investigation of what he did in Ukraine. If there should be an investigation of what he did in Ukraine, then the Ukrainian government should help in that investigation. If the Ukrainian government should help in that investigation....
    Aid doesn't count as giving something, because it wasn't his to give, it was a decision Congress had already made. If anything Trump made it his problem by withholding, so yes, he made it a quid. He did it with the intention of getting something only personally favorable. If Biden isn't innocent and he should be investigated and prosecuted (and he should), Trump wouldnt need to backchannel with Guiliani. The fact he used his private people to go through private alternative pathways is proof he himself knew he had something to hide. Sondland and Taylor both claim Trump wanted Zelensky to make a public statement about Bidens, this was a publicity stunt purely intended to smear Biden, rather than investigate.
    Last edited by PRB; 11-23-2019 at 04:04 PM.

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    Aid doesn't count as giving something, because it wasn't his to give, it was a decision Congress had already made.
    True. But presidents and vice presidents can hold up delivery of said aid. Just ask Joe Biden.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    The Steel Dossier actually originated with a conservative group.

    https://www.npr.org/2018/04/25/58604...ns-the-dossier
    Half truths are the best lies.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-c...steele-n897506
    Fusion had been hired to get information on Trump during the primaries by a Republican media firm, Washington Free Beacon. When Trump became the Republican nominee, the Clinton campaign and the Democratic Party began picking up the tab for the Fusion research. Fusion owner Glenn Simpson hired Steele, a Russia expert, to gather information from his sources in Russia.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    True. But presidents and vice presidents can hold up delivery of said aid. Just ask Joe Biden.
    and Joe Biden should be arrested an in prison for that alone, what's your question? I really wish you had more to say after I've said MULTIPLE TIMES that Biden can and should be locked up. Literally nobody here is defending Biden, you're the one defending Trump.

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    and Joe Biden should be arrested an in prison for that alone, what's your question? I really wish you had more to say after I've said MULTIPLE TIMES that Biden can and should be locked up. Literally nobody here is defending Biden, you're the one defending Trump.
    The fact, that you are ignoring, is that even though congress allocates money, they lack the power to force the executive to actually spend it. It's called separation of powers. Research that before you respond again okay?

    Add to that the fact that congress put into the aid law that the president has a duty to ensure a government is not corrupt before sending it aid. So both Joe Biden and Donald Trump can stand behind the "I was ensuring there was no corruption in Ukraine" shield.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    The fact, that you are ignoring, is that even though congress allocates money, they lack the power to force the executive to actually spend it. It's called separation of powers. Research that before you respond again okay? Add to that the fact that congress put into the aid law that the president has a duty to ensure a government is not corrupt before sending it aid. So both Joe Biden and Donald Trump can stand behind the "I was ensuring there was no corruption in Ukraine" shield.
    Nope. First of all, prosecute the F out of Biden. Please, go ahead, stop making him your "he did it too" defense. He's guilty. Next : As Schiff said, ensuring there was no corruption in Ukraine, especially during Biden's time, was not a personal position but a consensus, so yes, he had some shield. By contrast, Trump had zero reason to think the current Ukrainian government or President was corrupt, or if it was, what it had to do with Biden. See the difference here? Trump wasn't avoiding corruption of Ukraine, he was personally interested in Biden. If anything ,Trump was ADDING TO the corruption.

  10. #68
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    Nope. First of all, prosecute the F out of Biden.
    It's not a "me too defense" dumbass! The fact is that the president, by both constitutional right and by the law that congress passed, has the right to withhold foreign aid!
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't want to elect Biden, I want to imprison him. try harder

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    It's not a "me too defense" dumbass! The fact is that the president, by both constitutional right and by the law that congress passed, has the right to withhold foreign aid!
    Biden isn't a President, so he should be in prison.

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    Biden isn't a President, so he should be in prison.
    He was vice president when he did it and carrying out the official policy of the president. I agree that he should be in prison. My disagreement is your point that a president can't delay distribution of foreign aid that congress has allocated. He most certainly can.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    He was vice president when he did it and carrying out the official policy of the president. I agree that he should be in prison. My disagreement is your point that a president can't delay distribution of foreign aid that congress has allocated. He most certainly can.
    what about this part "By contrast, Trump had zero reason to think the current Ukrainian government or President was corrupt, or if it was, what it had to do with Biden. See the difference here? Trump wasn't avoiding corruption of Ukraine, he was personally interested in Biden. If anything ,Trump was ADDING TO the corruption."

    also, even if there was no QPP, Trump DID still ask for a personal favor. Either you believe he didn't ask or what he asked wasn't personal.

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    what about this part "[COLOR=#333333]By contrast, Trump had zero reason to think the current Ukrainian government or President was corrupt
    How can you say that and still say that Joe Biden should be arrested?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    He was vice president when he did it and carrying out the official policy of the president. I agree that he should be in prison. My disagreement is your point that a president can't delay distribution of foreign aid that congress has allocated. He most certainly can.
    Exactly and they do it all the time, so what if he wanted a certain potential corruption case to be investigated before he gave out the money? That video Judge Nap posted made me not care about it all when he said the whole impeachment process is a political one.
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    How can you say that and still say that Joe Biden should be arrested?
    1. I don't care about Biden, I want him to be in prison just so you can't keep bringing him up as a defense
    2. Why can't I? Biden isn't Ukranian, not the President, not the prosecutor, not any government official there.

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    1. I don't care about Biden, I want him to be in prison just so you can't keep bringing him up as a defense
    2. Why can't I? Biden isn't Ukranian, not the President, not the prosecutor, not any government official there.
    Your logic circuits are broken. If Biden was able to get the president of Ukraine to fire a prosecutor in order to receive aid, that in itself is a sign of corruption on the part of the president of Ukraine.

    Edit: And you can't use the excuse that Ukraine "really really needed the money." Parents in desperately poor countries who sell their children to tourists for sex are still corrupt no matter how badly they needed the money.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 11-25-2019 at 07:01 AM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The word “coup” shifted to a new level of formalized meaning last week when members of the political resistance showed up to remove President Trump wearing military uniforms.
    Not only did U.S. military leadership remain silent to the optics and purpose, but in the testimony of Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman he admits to giving instructions to ignore the instructions from a sitting United States President.
    In the absence of push-back from the Joint Chiefs, from this moment forth, the impression is tacit U.S. military support for the Vindman objective.


    Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman, a National Security Council official, testified before congressional committees conducting an impeachment inquiry on October 29, wearing a full military uniform.
    To date there has been no visible comment from U.S. military sanctioning Lt. Col. Vindman for his decision; or correcting the impression represented by Vindman’s military appearance. The willful blindness is concerning, but it gets much worse.

    Beyond the debate about the optics of the “coup“, within the testimony of Lt. Col Vindman, the witness readily admits to understanding the officially established policy of the President of The United States (an agreement between President Trump and President Zelenskyy), and stunningly admits that two weeks later he was giving instructions to his Ukrainian counterpart to ignore those instructions and policies.
    The coup against President Donald Trump went from soft, to hard. Consider…
    The testimony from Lt. Col. Vindman is available here. [SCRIBD pdf below]


    More at: https://theconservativetreehouse.com...ber-29th-2019/
    If you are Cpl. Jesse Thorsen and you wear a uniform to a Ron Paul rally you get reprimanded for using your uniform for political purpose. But, if you wear one as part of a show to give credence to "le reisistance" coup attempt it is all Honky-Dory.


    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/arm...ron-paul-rally

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    For the record, "Trumpbots" are not the only ones who find these impeachment hearings a farce. Here is a leftwing Bernie Sanders supporter ripping them apart.



    I am 100% certain that Trump will not be found guilty. The numbers just aren't there. And the evidence isn't strong enough to push the numbers there. That said, I agree with your assessment that the impeachment itself isn't a coup, but the Russiagate investigation and how it started was a coup though a non violent one. There are such things as "bloodless coups." FBI agents tweeting each other about "insurance" to overturn the election if Trump won was not part of the "constitutional process." That said, we are where we are.
    I consider the impeachment hearings to be part of the coup (although I agree with your assessment about Russiagate being a more definitive example), since the impeachment attempt is in conjunction with every other scheme against Trump, so I do not analyze it in a vacuum based upon its own merits.

    While impeachment is a Constitutional method of opposing a President, I do not consider this impeachment to be acted upon in good faith, which is why I can include it as part of the multi-faceted, soft coup attempt.
    "I shall bring justice to Westeros. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that."
    -Stannis Baratheon

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    To date there has been no visible comment from U.S. military sanctioning Lt. Col. Vindman for his decision; or correcting the impression represented by Vindman’s military appearance.
    Maybe it's because he was subpoenaed. Military personnel don't usually disobey congressional subpoenas, unlike those in the White House.

    And what "impression" was being represented? His uniform is authorized for year-round wear, and military personnel testifying before Congress often, if not usually, appear in uniform.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Your logic circuits are broken. If Biden was able to get the president of Ukraine to fire a prosecutor in order to receive aid, that in itself is a sign of corruption on the part of the president of Ukraine.
    Not Zelensky.

    But if you're going to say Zelensky is corrupt, it makes zero sense to trust him to help you to investigate.

  26. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Maybe it's because he was subpoenaed. Military personnel don't usually disobey congressional subpoenas, unlike those in the White House.

    And what "impression" was being represented? His uniform is authorized for year-round wear, and military personnel testifying before Congress often, if not usually, appear in uniform.
    why should there be any sanctions? he was still military the moment he was testifying.

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm View Post
    I consider the impeachment hearings to be part of the coup (although I agree with your assessment about Russiagate being a more definitive example), since the impeachment attempt is in conjunction with every other scheme against Trump, so I do not analyze it in a vacuum based upon its own merits.

    While impeachment is a Constitutional method of opposing a President, I do not consider this impeachment to be acted upon in good faith, which is why I can include it as part of the multi-faceted, soft coup attempt.
    what would he need to do to have committed a crime worthy of removal?

  28. #84
    good news : Trump throws Guiliani under the bus and Nunes is so desperate to save his face that he's suing CNN & Daily Beast.

    Looks like all the President's men are getting in trouble.

    What's more likely, that the President is full of crappy associates? Or the deep state is so good at throwing innocent people in prison?

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    Not Zelensky.

    But if you're going to say Zelensky is corrupt, it makes zero sense to trust him to help you to investigate.
    Zelensky was being asked to investigate a corrupt matter that happened before his watch. So it makes 100% sense to ask him to help with the investigation.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  30. #86

  31. #87
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Zelensky was being asked to investigate a corrupt matter that happened before his watch. So it makes 100% sense to ask him to help with the investigation.
    What corrupt matter?



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  34. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    What corrupt matter?
    You earlier admitted that you were okay with Joe Biden going to prison. So you've already admitted what Joe Biden did was corrupt. Next.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    You earlier admitted that you were okay with Joe Biden going to prison. So you've already admitted what Joe Biden did was corrupt. Next.
    My bad, yes, Biden is corrupt, and criminal, and should be in prison. But that's not what Trump asked. Trump asked for a public announcement for investigating Biden, which had nothing to do with the guilt of Biden (I said Biden is guilty because I don't give a F--- about the law when it comes to Democrats, but President Trump who is a Republican and cares about corruption doesn't get to have this luxury).

    See the difference? I'm willing to throw Biden in prison because I'm a fascist who hates Democrats, Trump is a President who has to follow the law. So he gets impeached for it.

    I'm willing to put any Democrats in prison because I feel like, it, but I hold my President to the rule of law, and if you don't like my double standard, take it up with Congress
    Last edited by PRB; 12-08-2019 at 08:15 PM.

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