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Thread: Secession

  1. #1

    Secession

    Help me understand why the focus of this movement hasn't become secessionism.

    This is currently a country of 330 million people and growing every day, 4 million square miles of land mass, 6 time zones, 3,000 miles east to west, temperate zones to deserts, mountains to plains, densely populated areas like New York and Los Angeles to places like Wyoming, where off the top of my head I think prong-horn outnumber human beings something like 4-to-1... a multi-cultural population that varies from recent African immigrants to indigenous peoples to "settlers" who can trace their lineage back over 4 centuries within a single county and almost literally everything in between... Montanans have more in common with people from Saskatchewan than people in Florida. People in southern California have more in common with people in northern Mexico than people in Missouri.

    The idea that this "country" should focus so intensely on a central government in Washington, D.C., let alone on the so-called "local" governments within their own "states" is a $#@!ing lunacy. When you honestly take a step back and consider what it is that we're discussing when it comes to national politics, if you don't come to the conclusion that the whole goddamned business is completely bonkers, you're missing something.

    Ultimately, as an anti-statist, my goal is micro-secession, but I'd really like someone to explain to me what the legitimate argument is against breaking this monolith up into more reasonable management districts that make considerably more sense than this untenable mass.



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  3. #2
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to A Son of Liberty again.

    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    Help me understand why the focus of this movement hasn't become secessionism.


    Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850)

    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law." - The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." - Government (p. 99)
    • "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
      - Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)
    • "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
      - Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)

    · tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito ·
    MOFA (Make Orwell Fiction Again)

  4. #3
    I don't think most here are against it, although I'm sure there is a significant percentage that are. As far as why it isn't the focus, probably just the daily distraction of left vs right.
    "The Patriarch"

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    I don't think most here are against it, although I'm sure there is a significant percentage that are. As far as why it isn't the focus, probably just the daily distraction of left vs right.
    I don't think most here aren't against it either, but I do think that there's a considerable - and perhaps organized - focus upon distracting from that end.

    I think that with Ron's failed 2012 run, it's the most logical end to this movement. I think we should be actively enabling secessionist movements, where ever the may arise, from whatever political perspective they may arise.

    I live in Appalachia... I think it's time for me to start advocating for a secessionist movement within that region. I think there's actually a good base for that endeavor, given the abundant natural resources and the natural geography, as well as the lingering spirit of the people who live here.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    I don't think most here are against it, although I'm sure there is a significant percentage that are. As far as why it isn't the focus, probably just the daily distraction of left vs right.
    We "early adopters" will probably just have to wait for the idea to mature and for all the dead-end options (like taking over the system or reforming it from within) are checked off ... (while hoping that there will still be enough time left before the feds et al. go "full retard fascist/socialist" ...)

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    I don't think most here aren't against it either, but I do think that there's a considerable - and perhaps organized - focus upon distracting from that end.

    I think that with Ron's failed 2012 run, it's the most logical end to this movement. I think we should be actively enabling secessionist movements, where ever the may arise, from whatever political perspective they may arise.

    I live in Appalachia... I think it's time for me to start advocating for a secessionist movement within that region. I think there's actually a good base for that endeavor, given the abundant natural resources and the natural geography, as well as the lingering spirit of the people who live here.
    Maybe you should run it by Tod Evans, You two may be local.
    "The Patriarch"

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    We "early adopters" will probably just have to wait for the idea to mature and for all the dead-end options (like taking over the system or reforming it from within) are checked off ... (while hoping that there will still be enough time left before the feds et al. go "full retard fascist/socialist" ...)
    "The Patriarch"

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Maybe you should run it by Tod Evans, You two may be local.
    @tod evans is Ozarkian.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    @tod evans is Ozarkian.
    Oops
    "The Patriarch"

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    @tod evans is Ozarkian.
    Yeah that sounds right. I know of one member who's from this part of the world (Greene County, PA, to be specific), who I can't think of his username at the moment. Oh, I believe @osan is from southern West Virginia if I recall correctly, which reasonably lines up with me, geographically.

    There's momentum for this sort of thing in the world today. The Trumpist movement is indicative, but also Brexit, as well as the business in Hong Kong if I read it correctly.

    It has legs, if people are willing to run on them.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    We "early adopters" will probably just have to wait for the idea to mature and for all the dead-end options (like taking over the system or reforming it from within) are checked off ... (while hoping that there will still be enough time left before the feds et al. go "full retard fascist/socialist" ...)
    You're probably correct. That said I wonder if this may not be just the time in history for us?

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    Yeah that sounds right. I know of one member who's from this part of the world (Greene County, PA, to be specific), who I can't think of his username at the moment. Oh, I believe @osan is from southern West Virginia if I recall correctly, which reasonably lines up with me, geographically.

    There's momentum for this sort of thing in the world today. The Trumpist movement is indicative, but also Brexit, as well as the business in Hong Kong if I read it correctly.

    It has legs, if people are willing to run on them.
    There has been and are several ongoing attempts here in the Pacific Northwest and regions near here.
    "The Patriarch"

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    There has been and are several ongoing attempts here in the Pacific Northwest and regions near here.
    Are you a part of them, and what is their momentum?

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    Are you a part of them, and what is their momentum?
    I never participated. I should. They actually had some momentum, I just can't see them make it past the local politburos.
    "The Patriarch"

  17. #15

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    @tod evans is Ozarkian.
    Ozarks-n-Appalachians have very similar folk and could most likely agree on matters.

    There's not a lot of flatlanders between the clans but the big muddy would/could prove a formidable barrier to trade if there was trouble..

    I am however quite glad that they're a buffer between the coastal swarms and our little slice of Heaven...



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  20. #17
    I'd love it if secession were to happen but the reality is its not going to happen. Even if it did, the current president, regardless if its Trump or not, they're not going to sit there and let a group of states leave.
    "Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."

    Calvin Coolidge

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Globalist View Post
    I'd love it if secession were to happen but the reality is its not going to happen. Even if it did, the current president, regardless if its Trump or not, they're not going to sit there and let a group of states leave.
    Maybe, maybe not. There will be no way to know for sure unless and until it actually happens.

    But the mere desire to refuse to allow it would not be sufficient. It would depend on whether "they" had the political wherewithal to enforce such a refusal, and the political will to accept what that enforcement would entail. (And for the same reason, it is also not simply a matter of "rock beats scissors" ...)

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Globalist View Post
    I'd love it if secession were to happen but the reality is its not going to happen. Even if it did, the current president, regardless if its Trump or not, they're not going to sit there and let a group of states leave.
    Congrats - you've just invented the perpetual motion machine.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Maybe, maybe not. There will be no way to know for sure unless and until it actually happens.

    But the mere desire to refuse to allow it would not be sufficient. It would depend on whether "they" had the political wherewithal to enforce such a refusal, and the political will to accept what that enforcement would entail. (And for the same reason, it is also not simply a matter of "rock beats scissors" ...)
    YES.

    Currently in the world, we see Great Britain dissolving itself from the EU; we see people in Hong Kong beautifully, nobly, resisting the rule of PRC (a story which has received little relevant media coverage among the major US media outlets, if I understand correctly).

    There is an oeuvre at play in the world today, I think. There is a symphony of self-determination, and I think it will have been the saddest of missed opportunities if we, the so-called liberty movement, in no less a place than America, fail to seize upon it.

  24. #21
    I'm against secession because I think this country can be fixed.

    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    I'm against secession because I think this country can be fixed.

    You are a Great American. We mere mortals can but hopelessly aspire to such lofty station.


  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    Help me understand why the focus of this movement hasn't become secessionism.

    This is currently a country of 330 million people and growing every day, 4 million square miles of land mass, 6 time zones, 3,000 miles east to west, temperate zones to deserts, mountains to plains, densely populated areas like New York and Los Angeles to places like Wyoming, where off the top of my head I think prong-horn outnumber human beings something like 4-to-1... a multi-cultural population that varies from recent African immigrants to indigenous peoples to "settlers" who can trace their lineage back over 4 centuries within a single county and almost literally everything in between... Montanans have more in common with people from Saskatchewan than people in Florida. People in southern California have more in common with people in northern Mexico than people in Missouri.

    The idea that this "country" should focus so intensely on a central government in Washington, D.C., let alone on the so-called "local" governments within their own "states" is a $#@!ing lunacy. When you honestly take a step back and consider what it is that we're discussing when it comes to national politics, if you don't come to the conclusion that the whole goddamned business is completely bonkers, you're missing something.

    Ultimately, as an anti-statist, my goal is micro-secession, but I'd really like someone to explain to me what the legitimate argument is against breaking this monolith up into more reasonable management districts that make considerably more sense than this untenable mass.
    How small do you want to draw the lines? Should city people be divided from rural people? They tend to be very different. What about neighborhoods within cities? They can be quite different. What about within the neighborhood? You probably have people who live near you who are not exactly like you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The quality seems to have dropped significantly since I came here, I guess you get what you pay for.
    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  27. #24
    I fully support secession . I am not looking for anyone to join me . I just opted out myself .
    Do something Danke



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Should city people be divided from rural people? They tend to be very different.
    It'd be less lethal for all involved


    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    What about neighborhoods within cities? They can be quite different. What about within the neighborhood? You probably have people who live near you who are not exactly like you.
    This is completely up to the cities, they created the neighborhoods and all of the associated problems.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    How small do you want to draw the lines? Should city people be divided from rural people? They tend to be very different. What about neighborhoods within cities? They can be quite different. What about within the neighborhood? You probably have people who live near you who are not exactly like you.
    my goal is micro-secession
    Down to the individual.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    Down to the individual.

    "You must spread some Reputation around..."
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  32. #28
    First we'll need to work within the party to get them to adopt succession into the platform. That was a joke, but probably for real.

    In my neck of the woods, there's always someone who brings this to the table every two years at convention. I'm the only one who ever votes in favor of it. You'd think with every fourth truck sporting a secede bumper sticker there'd be a little more support.

    Also, I KNOW that if Texas seceded it would be an embodiment of almost everything that's wrong with Republicans. Ban everything, and bomb everything....except Israel.
    "It's probably the biggest hoax since Big Foot!" - Mitt Romney 1-16-2012 SC Debate

  33. #29
    It's not politically viable at this time, for better or worse.


    Also the country isn't geographically divided like it used to be. Many regional differences have eroded. It's not north vs south or east vs west as much as it is urban vs non-urban.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    It's not politically viable at this time, for better or worse.
    Thanks Matt for bringing some sense and reason into this thread

    We all know that secession of course, would require a 2/3rd majority of both the House and Senate, and/or a constitutional convention with 3/4 of states approving a constitutional amendment.

    It's the only way
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

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