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Thread: The Real Significance Of The Hong Kong Riots

  1. #1

    The Real Significance Of The Hong Kong Riots

    The American media is almost universally sympathetic to the protestors, talking about how they're fighting for freedom. That alone should give you serious pause, since none of the major media venues here have any interest in freedom in the libertarian sense of that word. So what are these protests really about? There's the extradition bill, obviously, that was clearly the trigger, but riots this big and sustained must have something more significant behind them.

    The Hong Kong legislative council is already not fully democratic. The public elects only half of its 70 members; the other half is selected by so-called functional constituencies, which give pro-Beijing corporations and tycoons direct influence over policy. The result is a business-friendly legislature that disqualified elected officials who refuse to pledge allegiance to mainland China and essentially criminalized a pro-independence political party.

    ...And for the more militant demonstrators who vandalized the LegCo building, there is a fifth demand: for the Chinese government to implement democratic reforms and allow citizens to vote for their own leader and legislature. This isn’t the first time Hong Kong has made headlines for massive, sustained protest. In 2014, thousands of young adults occupied the business district for 79 days, calling upon the local government to implement universal suffrage and democratic representation; hundreds of thousands more came out to protest after the police used tear gas on these teenagers.

    ...This should be an opportunity for the left to build the “progressive international” of which Sanders has spoken. Progressives are understandably wary of interfering in another country’s affairs or of creating the conditions for a new Cold War. But there is a difference between abetting and launching coups, and reaching out to democracy activists, building cooperation between progressive movements, and expressing unequivocal support for self-determination.

    The 2019 Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act as well as Cruz’s proposed legislation frames Hong Kong’s problems as an infringement upon American interests. These proposed laws stop short of championing the self-determination of Hong Kongers. What the American left, including Democrats, can do is to bolster the voices of millions of Hong Kongers that have come out in recent weeks to push for greater democracy.
    https://www.thenation.com/article/de...kong-autonomy/

    Ah, yes, "democracy activists"...










    If the rioters win, expect Hong Kong to lose its place as one of the most economically free places in the world.



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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The American media is almost universally sympathetic to the protestors, talking about how they're fighting for freedom. That alone should give you serious pause, since none of the major media venues here have any interest in freedom in the libertarian sense of that word. So what are these protests really about? There's the extradition bill, obviously, that was clearly the trigger, but riots this big and sustained must have something more significant behind them.



    https://www.thenation.com/article/de...kong-autonomy/

    Ah, yes, "democracy activists"...










    If the rioters win, expect Hong Kong to lose its place as one of the most economically free places in the world.
    LOL

    If China wins expect Hong Kong to be the new Xinjiang, a massive prison camp and re-education center.

    The ChiComs are an evil tyrannical regime but as long as cash register libertarians can make a buck on evil they will gladly shake hands with the devil.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

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  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    cash register libertarians

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The love of money is the root of all evil.
    Money has its place and it is wrong to deny it to it but there are things much more important than money.
    Your kind would have happily participated in the slave trade when it was legal and now you defend and lobby for the ChiCom slave trade.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The American media is almost universally sympathetic to the protestors, talking about how they're fighting for freedom. That alone should give you serious pause, since none of the major media venues here have any interest in freedom in the libertarian sense of that word. So what are these protests really about? There's the extradition bill, obviously, that was clearly the trigger, but riots this big and sustained must have something more significant behind them.



    https://www.thenation.com/article/de...kong-autonomy/

    Ah, yes, "democracy activists"...










    If the rioters win, expect Hong Kong to lose its place as one of the most economically free places in the world.
    I agree, this will end badly. "Self-determination" is basically code-speak for anarchy, and we know where that leads. Communism/marxism, and eventually, Somalia.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
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  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The love of money is the root of all evil.
    Money has its place and it is wrong to deny it to it but there are things much more important than money.
    Your kind would have happily participated in the slave trade when it was legal and now you defend and lobby for the ChiCom slave trade.
    I see you're carrying on the proud tradition of the blood and soil left, denigrating laissez faire by equating it with greed: well done.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I see you're carrying on the proud tradition of the blood and soil left, denigrating laissez faire by equating it with greed: well done.
    Not at all, I see you are carrying on the proud tradition of mercenaries, slavers and tyrants by calling slavery and tyranny the free market.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Not at all, I see you are carrying on the proud tradition of mercenaries, slavers and tyrants by calling slavery and tyranny the free market.
    Hong Kong is one of the closest approximations of a free market on Earth, far closer than the US.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Hong Kong is one of the closest approximations of a free market on Earth, far closer than the US.
    It won't be once the ChiComs take over
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It won't be once the ChiComs take over
    Despite your infantile propaganda, the mainland Chinese aren't communists and haven't been for very a long time.

    They've been liberalizing as the West has been moving in the opposite direction.

    And they certainly have no intention of undermining Hong Kong's prosperity.

    The government in power there now, which oversees this very free economy, is aligned with Beijing, you understand?

    It's the "populists" (read: leftists) who will threaten Hong Kong's economic position if they're allowed to take power.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Despite your infantile propaganda, the mainland Chinese aren't communists and haven't been for very a long time.

    They've been liberalizing as the West has been moving in the opposite direction.

    And they certainly have no intention of undermining Hong Kong's prosperity.

    The government in power there now, which oversees this very free economy, is aligned with Beijing, you understand?

    It's the "populists" (read: leftists) who will threaten Hong Kong's economic position if they're allowed to take power.
    The Communist party has shut down all of the different religions in China, tells people where they are allowed to invest their money, and they force people to invest their money back into the companies that they work for propping up their markets. They even force people who are going to trade school to work 60 hour weeks or else they get kicked out of trade school. How are they not communist?

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    The Communist party
    Understand that they are called the Communist Party, but are not in fact a communist party.

    Party names frequently remain the same even as the underlying ideology is radically transformed.

    Look at any longstanding political party in the West.

    Democrats of today have nothing to do with Jefferson's Democrats; the British Liberals aren't liberals; etc.

    has shut down all of the different religions in China, tells people where they are allowed to invest their money, and they force people to invest their money back into the companies that they work for propping up their markets. They even force people who are going to trade school to work 60 hour weeks or else they get kicked out of trade school. How are they not communist?
    Would you like me to list the ways in which the US, Britain, France, Japan, etc intervene in their own economies or otherwise oppress their people?

    Communism means the abolition of private property, which does not characterize modern China any more than it does the US et al.

    China is still less economically free than the West, but they're converging, and I expect their ships to pass in the not too distant future.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Despite your infantile propaganda, the mainland Chinese aren't communists and haven't been for very a long time.

    They've been liberalizing as the West has been moving in the opposite direction.
    Their liberalization is minimal and only intended to con the west into building up their economy, Lenin pulled the same trick in the 1920's.
    They will crack down again when it suits their purposes.
    Meanwhile in all but money they are a horrible tyranny that is getting ever worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    And they certainly have no intention of undermining Hong Kong's prosperity.
    They have every intention of crushing it under their heel until its people are cowed into subservience.
    They have been building up other areas and they think they can survive the loss of Hong Kong's economy until it bends the knee.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The government in power there now, which oversees this very free economy, is aligned with Beijing, you understand?
    And it is the people who are not who must be crushed to satisfy their control mania.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    It's the "populists" (read: leftists) who will threaten Hong Kong's economic position if they're allowed to take power.
    They may or may not be leftists and if they are then they are wrong about that but there are more important things than money even if you treat it as your god.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #14

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Understand that they are called the Communist Party, but are not in fact a communist party.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  18. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The American media is almost universally sympathetic to the protestors,
    Yup, big red flag. Whatever the media tells me is evil, I know its good. Whatever the media tells me is good, I know is evil.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    Yup, big red flag. Whatever the media tells me is evil, I know its good. Whatever the media tells me is good, I know is evil.
    The same thing works with the ChiComs.

    In this case the Hong Kongers are at least the lesser of two evils.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  21. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The same thing works with the ChiComs.

    In this case the Hong Kongers are at least the lesser of two evils.
    Nah, the American media is the greatest evil. Everything I know, I know from taking the opposite of their word.
    The media needs to start supporting Hong Kong police and authorities, or I stand my ground... ..I could care less about the Hong Kong rioters.

    Just like Tienanmen Square. People say it was all about democracy, but it wasn't. It was a bunch of college students thinking they could run China better than the Party. They could not, and were clueless kids. And the student leaders sounded like megalomaniacal idiots if you ever got a chance to hear any of their speeches. The greatest one was calling herself something akin to "the great and beneficial democratically elected leader and rightful president of China".

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Their liberalization is minimal
    They went from a hardcore communist state to a middle of the pack interventionist state on par with the less free parts of Europe.

    Imagine North Korea becoming Italy.

    This was a gargantuan improvement for a fifth of all human beings on Earth.

    Meanwhile in all but money they are a horrible tyranny that is getting ever worse.
    In terms of incarceration rates, for instance?

    ...o, wait, the US has the highest in the world, several times China's.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    They went from a hardcore communist state to a middle of the pack interventionist state on par with the less free parts of Europe.

    Imagine North Korea becoming Italy.

    This was a gargantuan improvement for a fifth of all human beings on Earth.
    You exaggerate the effect and focus only on the economic.

    Even what they have done will not last once they think they have the wealth they need to conquer the world.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    Nah, the American media is the greatest evil. Everything I know, I know from taking the opposite of their word.
    The media needs to start supporting Hong Kong police and authorities, or I stand my ground... ..I could care less about the Hong Kong rioters.

    Just like Tienanmen Square. People say it was all about democracy, but it wasn't. It was a bunch of college students thinking they could run China better than the Party. They could not, and were clueless kids. And the student leaders sounded like megalomaniacal idiots if you ever got a chance to hear any of their speeches. The greatest one was calling herself something akin to "the great and beneficial democratically elected leader and rightful president of China".
    You underestimate the evil of the ChiComs.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    They went from a hardcore communist state to a middle of the pack interventionist state on par with the less free parts of Europe.

    Imagine North Korea becoming Italy.

    This was a gargantuan improvement for a fifth of all human beings on Earth.



    In terms of incarceration rates, for instance?

    ...o, wait, the US has the highest in the world, several times China's.
    China literally murders their prisoners to harvest organs. They are the best at organ transplanting for a reason.

  26. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    They went from a hardcore communist state to a middle of the pack interventionist state on par with the less free parts of Europe.

    Imagine North Korea becoming Italy.

    This was a gargantuan improvement for a fifth of all human beings on Earth.
    China has turned out very well materially. Whether its people are happy or not is a philosophical discussion.

    BUT IT CAN NOT BE DENIED THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY HAS STEERED CHINA INTO AN ECONOMIC POWERHOUSE.

    And I really do not even want to entertain the "but China would be so much better had it been run by a libertario-capitalist-constitutional government". I have no desire to dabble in Hypotheticals.

    China is 1.5 billion people. It has built two world wonders this past decade (three gorges dam and the high speed rail system).
    Considering where it came from, I don't see how it could do much better.

    Chinese are not Americans, and do not have American values. They have always been far more collectivist.

    And I'd probably rather live as a Chinaman in China than an Englishman in England. England has become a nanny-state hellhole.
    At least in China, you know the rules, you are part of the collective. In England, you are told you are free but can get jail for posting opinions on facebook.

    Also, I have seen China Blue, a documentary that follows a young girl working in a blue jeans factory.
    She did not have to. Nobody was forcing her. She, like most of the factory workers, was actually a countryside migrant, who desired western style goods and technology, and was willing to work long hours to get it. She could have always stayed on the family farm, but she had been seduced by modern city life.
    The documentary tried to paint her as some victim, when all I could see was a girl rejecting country life and going to the city to try to achieve her dreams. She was spending her $1.50 an hour on frivolous city goods.
    Last edited by UWDude; 08-31-2019 at 10:47 PM.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    China has turned out very well materially. Whether its people are happy or not is a philosophical discussion.

    BUT IT CAN NOT BE DENIED THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY HAS STEERED CHINA INTO AN ECONOMIC POWERHOUSE.

    And I really do not even want to entertain the "but China would be so much better had it been run by a libertario-capitalist-constitutional government". I have no desire to dabble in Hypotheticals.

    China is 1.5 billion people. It has built two world wonders this past decade (three gorges dam and the high speed rail system).
    Considering where it came from, I don't see how it could do much better.

    Chinese are not Americans, and do not have American values. They have always been far more collectivist.

    And I'd probably rather live as a Chinaman in China than an Englishman in England. England has become a nanny-state hellhole.
    At least in China, you know the rules, you are part of the collective. In England, you are told you are free but can get jail for posting opinions on facebook.

    Also, I have seen China Blue, a documentary that follows a young girl working in a blue jeans factory.
    She did not have to. Nobody was forcing her. She, like most of the factory workers, was actually a countryside migrant, who desired western style goods and technology, and was willing to work long hours to get it. She could have always stayed on the family farm, but she had been seduced by modern city life.
    The documentary tried to paint her as some victim, when all I could see was a girl rejecting country life and going to the city to try to achieve her dreams. She was spending her $1.50 an hour on frivolous city goods.
    Why don't you move there if its so great?



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  29. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You underestimate the evil of the ChiComs.
    No, I just happen to prefer in-your-face evil over duplicitous evil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Why don't you move there if its so great?
    Because I am an American, and America is greater, with greater freedom. Also, I don't speak Chinese, I know nothing of Chinese language and culture, and I prefer periodically surviving and enjoying the sparsely inhabited and rarely explored mountains of the Cascades and Olympics to the 4000 years of well explored and inhabited mountains of China.

    The last is the biggest reason I don't move anywhere, US, China or otherwise. Same reason I don;t move to Switzerland (I could easily). Switzerland has beautiful mountains, but it also has a bed and breakfast every 15 miles or so of trail, because it has been inhabited for so long, and most trails are lined with fences from farms.

    I like my wilderness living wild.
    Last edited by UWDude; 08-31-2019 at 10:56 PM.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    No, I just happen to prefer in-your-face evil over duplicitous evil.
    That is certainly a factor to consider but if the outright evil is much larger then it doesn't make any difference.
    The evil of the west is limited by its duplicity so far and is much smaller than the ChiComs, the individual leaders are probably just as evil but their ability to act on it is less.

    The world will be a much worse place if China takes over and so will Hong Kong.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    Because I am an American, and America is greater, with greater freedom. Also, I don't speak Chinese, I know nothing of Chinese language and culture, and I prefer periodically surviving and enjoying the sparsely inhabited and rarely explored mountains of the Cascades and Olympics to the 4000 years of well explored and inhabited mountains of China.

    The last is the biggest reason I don't move anywhere, US, China or otherwise. Same reason I don;t move to Switzerland (I could easily). Switzerland has beautiful mountains, but it also has a bed and breakfast every 15 miles or so of trail, because it has been inhabited for so long, and most trails are lined with fences from farms.

    I like my wilderness living wild.
    Its not that much greater, you can get attacked by EMF/RF weaponry just for posting on ronpaulforums

  33. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That is certainly a factor to consider but if the outright evil is much larger then it doesn't make any difference.
    The evil of the west is limited by its duplicity so far and is much smaller than the ChiComs, the individual leaders are probably just as evil but their ability to act on it is less.

    The world will be a much worse place if China takes over and so will Hong Kong.
    China can't take over. They have plans, but their history has shown their plans at domination to be almost comically inept and based on misunderstandings of technology and human nature. CHina might own the world, but it would take another 4000 years of slow expansion.

    And yeah, China might harvest organs, China might have a scary credit system... ...but it wasn't China turning the greatest country in Africa to a slave trading hellhole.
    In regards to Vietnam and Korea, China is a tie with the west. But in regards to the middle East, I'd say the west is far worse.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You exaggerate the effect
    Look at the economic freedom indices, or the economic data itself.

    North Korea (a good proxy for how China was under Mao) is at the very bottom; China's in the middle with the likes of Italy.

    This is not seriously debatable.

    and focus only on the economic.
    As you may or may not have noticed, the cultural revolution is over; China is no longer a totalitarian state.

    That is, the improvements are not limited to the economic realm.

    I see you didn't respond to my comment about incarceration rates.

    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    China literally murders their prisoners to harvest organs.
    And the US literally burns people alive to make Halliburton rich.

    My point isn't that China's ruled by saints, only that it's vastly better than it once was, and not bad compared to the West.

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