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Thread: Is Vaping Really Dangerous or Is This Just More Fake News?

  1. #1

    Is Vaping Really Dangerous or Is This Just More Fake News?

    Approximately 480,000 people a year die from cigarette smoking.

    More people are vaping than smoking these days, and finally, possibly, one single person allegedly died from what doctors believe to be a vaping related lung condition. Sorry, but that in and of itself does not tell me that vaping is "dangerous" in the grand scheme of things nor does it tell me that it is likely vaping in and of itself is even likely responsible. Until we start seeing larger numbers of people having problems and can pinpoint what the problem is, this seems like a bunch of media sensationalism to me.

    Illinois patient's death from lung disease may be first vaping-related fatality in U.S.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/vaping-...e-first-in-us/


    Early studies seemed to show that vaping was 99% - 99.9% safer than smoking cigarettes. With statistics like this (480,000 deaths/year from cigs, 1 from vaping, ever) seems to backup that assertion.

    However people have been vaping for a good 15 years and now suddenly the media is running stories about people coming down with vaping related illnesses. The stories just started in the last few weeks, and now they are throwing up headlines about somebody dying? This all sounds very fishy and concocted.

    There have been very few people who have gotten sick (the headline is usually something like "3 people have gotten sick in Virginia"), and in reading into some of these cases, it seemed as though some of those who had these alleged vaping related illnesses had only started vaping in the last year or two? Yet there are millions of people who have been vaping for well over a decade that don't seem to have any issues.

    There are thousands of flavors and ingredients used in vaping. Some people even mix their own juice. There are thousands of different vaping devices.

    It is very possible, and highly probable, that people who are in fact having issues may be vaping something that most other people don't vape and/or from a device most other people don't vape from.



    This article says that the problem is that e-cigs are not regulated by the FDA and so they can't trace which ingredients might be problematic:

    https://www.insider.com/why-is-vapin...disease-2019-8
    Last edited by dannno; 08-27-2019 at 04:51 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  3. #2
    Orange smoke bad!
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  4. #3
    There's not really enough data to determine the dangers of vaping. I think it depends on your overall health. In my experience nicotine can cause problems with sleep and stuff, after I quit smoking hookah I noticed I fall asleep better, but I woke up easier when I would want a nicotine fix in the morning. I wouldn't recommend it to someone unless they were already addicted to nicotine, its definitely a safer alternative to other forms of nicotine. I think if you can do it moderately its probably not harmful. Addiction can be something that harms some people worse than others.

  5. #4
    From the research I have done, it appears that the cases of lipoid pneumonia may be caused by improperly distilled essential oils. It is imperative to properly distill essential oils before adding it to e juice flavoring in order to remove the lipids.

    There was a case of a young man in Utah who got sick, he literally started vaping a new e juice the day before that had menthol and the next day got sick. May have been a bad batch or something, menthol flavoring comes from distilled essential oils.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    There's not really enough data to determine the dangers of vaping. I think it depends on your overall health. In my experience nicotine can cause problems with sleep and stuff, after I quit smoking hookah I noticed I fall asleep better, but I woke up easier when I would want a nicotine fix in the morning. I wouldn't recommend it to someone unless they were already addicted to nicotine, its definitely a safer alternative to other forms of nicotine. I think if you can do it moderately its probably not harmful. Addiction can be something that harms some people worse than others.
    Nicotine also has some beneficial health effects.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  7. #6
    The most dangerous thing about it is it makes you look like a puss. Real men use real tobacco
    "It's probably the biggest hoax since Big Foot!" - Mitt Romney 1-16-2012 SC Debate

  8. #7

  9. #8
    I got to be honest I tried cartridges for several months and I didn't like the way they made me feel inside
    I'm not sure what they're putting in them and I don't know what they're putting in them and I don't trust what they're putting in them so I'd rather pass.
    Vaping actual flowers seems more reasonable but we still don't know what smoking or inhaling oil Vapor does long term
    I'd rather just eat medical grade oil

    why I should worship the state (who apparently is the only party that can possess guns without question).
    The state's only purpose is to kill and control. Why do you worship it? - Sola_Fide

    Baptiste said.
    At which point will Americans realize that creating an unaccountable institution that is able to pass its liability on to tax-payers is immoral and attracts sociopaths?



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  11. #9
    My brothers ex girlfriend was a vaper. She started doing it because she wanted to quit cigarettes.
    "Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."

    Calvin Coolidge

  12. #10
    I believe the culprit is the propylene glycol. Vegetable glycerin is not a problem with or without nicotine. However, I read studies of PG/VG 50/50 mix with or without nicotine has caused pulmonary problems in rat studies.
    My website: https://www.theherbsofthefield.com/

    "No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another. ~ Charles Dickens

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    I believe the culprit is the propylene glycol. Vegetable glycerin is not a problem with or without nicotine. However, I read studies of PG/VG 50/50 mix with or without nicotine has caused pulmonary problems in rat studies.
    great now I will never get the picture out of my head of rats using little tiny vapes and wearing hipster clothes and handlebar mustaches.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    great now I will never get the picture out of my head of rats using little tiny vapes and wearing hipster clothes and handlebar mustaches.


    My website: https://www.theherbsofthefield.com/

    "No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another. ~ Charles Dickens

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    lol
    Four Surprising Potential Health Benefits of Nicotine

    https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/x...ts-of-nicotine


    Protects against parkinson's, alzheimer's, neurodegenerative conditions, helps with attention, focus, wakefulness and depression.

    Smoking it is probably not the best method of ingestion.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  16. #14
    I know that when ever I am around someone who vapes with a juice that has a strong smell it makes me cough.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Four Surprising Potential Health Benefits of Nicotine

    https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/x...ts-of-nicotine


    Protects against parkinson's, alzheimer's, neurodegenerative conditions, helps with attention, focus, wakefulness and depression.

    Smoking it is probably not the best method of ingestion.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywiOO1CWVWw

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Four Surprising Potential Health Benefits of Nicotine

    https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/x...ts-of-nicotine


    Protects against parkinson's, alzheimer's, neurodegenerative conditions, helps with attention, focus, wakefulness and depression.

    Smoking it is probably not the best method of ingestion.
    I remember a co-worker heavy smoker in the late 70's that said smokers utilized more of their lung capacity so it was better to smoke than not. People that do not smoke take shallower breaths.
    Truth is Fallacy, Fallacy is Evil.



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  20. #17
    Approximately 480,000 people a year die from cigarette smoking.
    Not even close...these numbers are inflated to the point of fantasy.

    A 90 year old man dies from a broken hip, but because he smoked during WW2, it's now a smoking related fatality.

    They cook these numbers just like they cook "drunk driving" numbers.

  21. #18
    From: BUT WHO RULES THE RULEMAKERS? A STUDY OF ILLEGALLY ISSUED REGULATIONS AT HHS (Mostly FDA)

    After her husband passed away from lung cancer,
    Kimberly Manor started an innovative business
    to help longtime smokers quit. At Moose Jooce,
    a vape store in Lake, Michigan, Kimberly sells
    vaporizers—small electronic devices that deliver
    nicotine to users in a mist of inhaled water vapor
    without the additional chemicals and tar found in
    cigarette smoke. Kimberly’s business prospered,
    and she has helped hundreds of people in her small
    town to quit smoking.

    Unfortunately, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) threw a wrench in Kimberly’s business model. In 2016, the FDA created a rule deeming vaping products—vaporizers and the liquid used in them—to be subject to the same restrictions placed on cigarettes under the
    Tobacco Control Act of 2009, even though
    vaping products contain no tobacco.

    Vaping allows people to obtain nicotine and mimic the experience of smoking without the major causes of cancer—combustion gases, smoke, and tar. Nicotine is extracted from a plant in the tobacco family or from synthetic tobacco. Because vaping can be customized for the user, former smokers can gradually reduce their nicotine intake by using liquids with declining nicotine levels and eventually no nicotine at all. For example, vaping helped Steve Green, the owner of Mountain Vapors in Sonora, California, quit smoking after 30 years and recover from early signs of emphysema.7

    The Deeming Rule, as the FDA’s regulation of vaping devices is called, imposes years of regulatory hurdles and hundreds of thousands of dollars in costs per product, which is stifling innovation and harming small shop owners across the country. The rule’s mandates take effect in stages. In 2021, it will require “premarket” approval to keep existing vapor products on the market, which means each liquid with a different flavor or different level of nicotine, including liquids with no nicotine, will have to be approved individually through a lengthy process at a cost of up to $466,000 (by the FDA’s own estimation).8 And any product introduced after the Deeming Rule went into effect in 2016 must go through this process immediately, which has effectively halted innovation.

    For Kimberly and Steve, this rule also means they are no longer able to repair products for their customers. This premarket approval process will be prohibitively expensive for small business owners across the country, while big companies can better afford the approval process for their few vaping products.9
    In addition to stifling Kimberly’s and Steve’s ability to sell vaping products, the Deeming Rule also limits their free speech. No matter how accurate their product descriptions and ingredient lists are, they must secure FDA approval for them. In
    addition, they are severely restricted in their ability to advertise or educate consumers about how they can quit smoking using vaping products without FDA approval for their speech.

    Steve notes that the “restrictions stop me from sharing my personal story.” As he explains, “For years, I smoked 2-1/2 packs of cigarettes a day, and it nearly gave me emphysema. Vaping freed me from my addiction, and the doctor says I’ve recovered.”10

    Beyond making it expensive and onerous for entrepreneurs, vapers, and cigarette smokers who want to quit, the Deeming Rule has a more fundamental problem: The rule was issued by a career employee. While the employee has been with the FDA for 30 years and was promoted to a senior career position, she was never nominated by any President or confirmed by the Senate for any democratically accountable office. For that basic reason, the rule was illegal the moment it hit the books. Tenure does not confer constitutional authority.

    Steve notes that the “restrictions stop me from sharing my personal story.”

    The Constitution requires regulations to be issued by appointed officials subject to the democratic process, not by unelected public servants. The career employee who issued the Deeming Rule,
    Leslie Kux, probably didn’t know that the rulemaking power she was asked to exercise was unconstitutional. But good intentions can’t transform an illegal rule into a legal one.

    Kimberly and Steve have teamed up with Pacific Legal Foundation to sue the FDA over this unconstitutional practice of using career bureaucrats to issue rules binding on Americans. In early 2018, PLF attorneys challenged the Deeming Rule with three lawsuits, representing eight small vaping businesses and the nonprofit Tobacco Harm Reduction 4 Life.11 In these and other lawsuits, PLF’s clients seek to enforce the constitutional separation of powers and the democratic accountability that the Founding generation established in the Constitution.

    Vaping store retailers are only one example of those harmed by illegal regulations uncovered by our research—regulations that restrict individuals and small businesses across the country.
    Uncensored Health Freedom News:
    http://healthimpactnews.com/

    Yes, I believe the science of vaccines is settled - Zippyjuan Team

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Working Poor View Post
    I know that when ever I am around someone who vapes with a juice that has a strong smell it makes me cough.
    Have you ever been to a concert? It's the same stuff they use in the fog machines.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Created4 View Post
    This whole thing is looking more and more manufactured by the day.

    In July, a US District Court judge, Paul Grimm, produced a remedy order that requires the FDA to enforce the premarket tobacco application (PMTA) requirement starting in May of 2020. This effectively moves up this particular compliance deadline by more than a year. While a small handful of companies might be in a position to attempt compliance with this new deadline, the rest of the vapor industry is not.

    Strict enforcement of this deadline will force most US manufacturers to shut down. Even though the FDA will retain enforcement discretion with regard to certain compliance deadlines on a case-by-case basis, it is not clear how (or even if) the agency will apply it. In other words, there is no guarantee that companies will be allowed to keep their products on the market.


    At the same time, several bills are active in Congress that would undermine FDA’s authority over new tobacco products. These bills propose to raise taxes, ban flavors, limit online sales, and one bill even goes as far as requiring vapor products to be approved for market only as medical drugs/devices.


    CASAA is asking our members to take action by sending a message to your federal lawmakers urging them to reject this legislation and prevent a massive underground market from taking the place of our current legal, regulated marketplace. We will start delivering your messages one week from now to coincide with a lobby day organized by the Vapor Technology Association.

    ---
    The long version:


    By way of background, In July, Judge Paul Grimm, US District Court District of Maryland, ruled that the FDA has until May 2020 to enforce the premarket tobacco application (PMTA) requirement for new tobacco and vapor products.


    The initial compliance deadline for PMTA was August 8, 2018. But in July 2017, the FDA delayed the PMTA deadline to 2022--for non-combustible products--citing a need to give vapor manufacturers more time to prepare and submit meaningful applications that would be more likely to be accepted by the agency.


    Within a year, the FDA changed course after reviewing national survey data showing a sharp uptick in youth use of vapor products. The updated guidance would require applications to market vapor products in flavors other than tobacco to be submitted and accepted by the FDA by August of 2021. Although never finalized, the draft guidance would have also limited sales of flavored vapor products to adult-only specialty vapor/tobacco stores.


    In 2018, the American Academy of Pediatricians (AAP) sued the FDA with the goal of reinstating the original August 8, 2018 PMTA compliance deadline. Following an exchange of proposed remedy briefs by both parties, Judge Grimm ruled that FDA’s suggestion of no less than ten months from the date of the court’s decision would be necessary for companies to finalize and submit acceptable applications. Judge Grimm granted FDA’s request.


    The ten-month deadline is one of four points detailed in Judge Grimm’s remedy order. The remaining provisions of the order are as follows:


    New products for which applications have not been filed within this period shall be subject to FDA enforcement actions, in the FDA’s discretion;
    New products for which applications have been timely filed may remain on the market without being subject to FDA enforcement actions for a period not to exceed one year from the date of application while FDA considers the application;
    The FDA shall have the ability to exempt New Products from filing requirements for good cause on a case-by-case basis.
    While the one-year “grace period” for a manufacturer to keep a product on the market during FDA’s review of their application is nothing new, the points regarding the agency’s enforcement discretion and ability to exempt new products from the filing requirements are significant.


    It may be hard to believe, but FDA specifically asked the court to preserve the agency’s enforcement discretion citing negative consequences of a mass exodus from the vapor market and an extreme and sudden decrease in access to safer alternatives to smoking. The FDA expressed strong concern that such an event would cause thousands of people who vape to return to smoking.


    Preserving FDA’s enforcement discretion is not a free pass for the vapor industry and consumers should be very concerned about what this remedy order means for our access to vapor shops, vapor products, and other resources. The FDA and Congress are still facing tremendous pressure from anti-nicotine activists to ban flavors, enact taxes on vapor products, ban online sales, and raise the purchase age to 21. Additionally, we are monitoring a budding movement by local governments in California to take matters into their own hands by requiring that a vapor company has a marketing order from the FDA in order to sell their product in their city.



    Thank you,

    CASAA Legislative Team
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  24. #21
    There have been people busted importing counterfeit vaping cartridges from China. Of course we know the Chinese are very conscientious about such things and they would never produce a harmful product.

    In the news today there was a domestic arrest of someone making counterfeit THC cartridges, and you never know what quality problems or errors may occur with that.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate. - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  25. #22
    I would say anything to excess (i.e. water) can be dangerous to one's health.

    I would also say that there has been a lot of motivation to keep tax revenue flowing - I dont see this as a health concern. They've been attacking this from day one, and will do anything to demonstrate their need to maintain control over their revenue streams. So this is really a revenue concern, under the guise of public safety.

    Just like stoplights/cameras and speed limit signs. Safety is just a cloak for revenue

    Gulag Chief:
    "Article 58-1a, twenty five years... What did you get it for?"
    Gulag Prisoner: "For nothing at all."
    Gulag Chief: "You're lying... The sentence for nothing at all is 10 years"



  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    There have been people busted importing counterfeit vaping cartridges from China. Of course we know the Chinese are very conscientious about such things and they would never produce a harmful product.

    In the news today there was a domestic arrest of someone making counterfeit THC cartridges, and you never know what quality problems or errors may occur with that.

    It looks like they may have found the culprit in the THC cartridges.. Some companies in New York just got charged for selling vitamin E acetate, which is vitamine E oil to black market THC cartridge manufacturers. They were selling it specifically as a thickening agent for vaporizing.

    I read an article where they claimed that 80% or more of the cases they are seeing in hospitals are actually from THC vaping, not nicotine vaping.

    In the nic vaporizers, you can have a similar problem if you add undistilled essential oils, or any other type of oils to the mixture.

    If you were to vape vegetable oil, you would get the same illness these people are getting.
    Last edited by dannno; 09-11-2019 at 11:09 AM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by brushfire View Post
    I would say anything to excess (i.e. water) can be dangerous to one's health.
    Some of the people in the hospital started vaping less than a week earlier, others had been vaping for as little as 1-2 years. There are plenty of people who have been vaping for over a decade who are fine and always have been.

    Something is going on... I think it is nefarious.. I think somebody is doing this who wants regulations. Usually that means the bigger vape brands that would benefit from having their competition run out.

    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Some of the people in the hospital started vaping less than a week earlier, others had been vaping for as little as 1-2 years. There are plenty of people who have been vaping for over a decade who are fine and always have been.

    Something is going on... I think it is nefarious.. I think somebody is doing this who wants regulations. Usually that means the bigger vape brands that would benefit from having their competition run out.


    Yeah, that's a pretty interesting curve. Are the bulk of these in IL? Were are these, relative to sales?

    Gulag Chief:
    "Article 58-1a, twenty five years... What did you get it for?"
    Gulag Prisoner: "For nothing at all."
    Gulag Chief: "You're lying... The sentence for nothing at all is 10 years"



  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    This whole thing is looking more and more manufactured by the day.
    Are they protecting the tobacco industry and the sale of cigarettes?
    Uncensored Health Freedom News:
    http://healthimpactnews.com/

    Yes, I believe the science of vaccines is settled - Zippyjuan Team

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Created4 View Post
    Are they protecting the tobacco industry and the sale of cigarettes?
    Yes, that too.

    I'm guessing some of the bigger vape juice companies, you know, the ones that sell their $#@! in gas stations and crap, they are probably shell corporations of big tobacco.

    Some of the vape juice that has been identified as causing harm came from gas stations.

    So far, none that I know came from reputable online retailers.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  32. #28
    I can't wait for the "I started vaping because the media kept saying that it is unhealthy" blog posts.
    "The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety."
    H. L. Mencken


    I don't hate you. You're just some person on the internet who believes in things that aren't real.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Yes, that too.

    I'm guessing some of the bigger vape juice companies, you know, the ones that sell their $#@! in gas stations and crap, they are probably shell corporations of big tobacco.

    Some of the vape juice that has been identified as causing harm came from gas stations.

    So far, none that I know came from reputable online retailers.
    Ditto

  34. #30
    The seen:

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    I can't wait for the "I started vaping because the media kept saying that it is unhealthy" blog posts.

    The unseen:

    *People (and children) who stop vaping and picking up smoking cigarettes instead
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

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