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Thread: Where is "convicted felons can't own guns" in the constitution?

  1. #1

    Where is "convicted felons can't own guns" in the constitution?

    For the life of me, each time I read the 2nd amendment I keep skipping over the "convicted felons can't own guns" clause. The whole idea of the legitimacy of background checks is to keep guns out of the hands of felons. But....I've never read where felons were barred from owning guns.

    Hmmm...is that part of the militia clause? Maybe. But felons are not generally barred from military service (I looked it up just to be sure) and more importantly felons are not exempted from the draft.[1] That's right. The gubmint can force you to carry a gun even if you are a convicted felon which means that it considers felons part of the body of people that can be called upon if we were ever invaded. And isn't one of the purposes of the militia to repel invasions?

    Now I get why anyone in jail or prison can't have a firearm. But there are all sorts of rights that people lose while in prison. There is no right against "unreasonable search and seizure" while one is in jail or prison. But once release, all of those rights are restored. So....why not one's second amendment rights? I understand the "logic" from a "we just don't want criminals to have guns" argument. Okay. Then change the constitution.

    I did a little bit of research before writing this post. The case D.C. v Heller, which was not about whether or not barring felons from owning guns, does address it in dicta. (Dicta is stuff in an opinion that's interesting but isn't binding precedent). Apparently there was concern raised that ruling there was an individual right to own guns would mean felons could own guns. The Heller court stated that their ruling didn't cover that question. It also referred to an earlier case, Lewis v. United States that was about a felon being convicted for possessing a firearm, but that felon only challenged the felony conviction itself, not the underlying second amendment question.

    Here is the footnote from Heller in its entirety. (Footnote 25 on page 53)

    Miller was briefly mentioned in our decision in Lewis v. United States, 445 U. S. 55 (1980), an appeal from a conviction for being a felon
    in possession of a firearm. The challenge was based on the contention that the prior felony conviction had been unconstitutional. No Second
    Amendment claim was raised or briefed by any party.
    In the course of rejecting the asserted challenge, the Court commented gratuitously, in
    a footnote, that “[t]hese legislative restrictions on the use of firearms are neither based upon constitutionally suspect criteria, nor do they
    trench upon any constitutionally protected liberties. See United States v. Miller . . . (the Second Amendment guarantees no right to keep and
    bear a firearm that does not have ‘some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia’).” Id., at 65–66,
    n. 8. The footnote then cites several Court of Appeals cases to the same effect. It is inconceivable that we would rest our interpretation of the
    basic meaning of any guarantee of the Bill of Rights upon such a footnoted dictum in a case where the point was not at issue and was not
    argued.


    So it seems like the constitutionality of whether or not a felon has the right to keep and bear arms has never been directly challenged in the U.S. Supreme Court. (If someone can think of an actual case, please post it.) Now I guarantee you that the overwhelming majority of Americans, including "conservatives" and including people who consider themselves constitutional "textualists" will tell you that barring felons from owning guns is both constitutional and reasonable. I have no argument for the "reasonable" point. But constitutional? It doesn't seem like it. If I'm wrong, show me how I am wrong with an actual constitutional argument. Seriously....somebody debunk me. This seems pretty far out there. If I'm wrong on this I want to know it.

    [1] Interestingly enough you are exempted from the draft if you are confined but that's it. See: https://www.sss.gov/Registration/Who...Register/Chart Also during WW I felons were exempted. See: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/9313...ilitary_draft/
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  3. #2
    Maybe in the clause of the 13th Amendment saying, "except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted"?

    This is assuming that restriction from bearing arms could be included within the broader restrictions that slavery entails.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Maybe in the clause of the 13th Amendment saying, "except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted"?

    This is assuming that restriction from bearing arms could be included within the broader restrictions that slavery entails.
    Good point. But the government ability to use convicts as slave labor ends when they are released. At least that's the way the it's been done up until this point.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  5. #4
    it all comes from the
    f
    b
    I
    and THAT came from Nixon using cannabis to $#@! on anti wor & negro AMERICANS

    all
    so
    we
    could
    have a HOOK
    put in our nose and led into the wasteland
    to die

    for people that loath us...thanks fbi & Nixon fk YOU forever

    why I should worship the state (who apparently is the only party that can possess guns without question).
    The state's only purpose is to kill and control. Why do you worship it? - Sola_Fide

    Baptiste said.
    At which point will Americans realize that creating an unaccountable institution that is able to pass its liability on to tax-payers is immoral and attracts sociopaths?

  6. #5
    Denying ex-felons their Second Amendment rights after leaving jail was the first step in the slippery slope to banning them for everyone.

    Red Flag laws would not be possible without this first step (precedent).
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  7. #6
    If they can prove to a judge that the firearm will be used for legitimate hunting purposes, and not for hurting people, then I agree they should be able to have a hunting rifle.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  8. #7
    It’s in the super fine print under shall not be infringed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  9. #8
    It was well understood prior to the Constitution that natural rights exist (see Declaration of Independence). It was also well understood that if one violates the rights of another, and is convicted in a court of law with proper due process, they can have their rights abridged.


    The way it should work is that if you are convicted of a violent crime, especially with a firearm, then your RTKBA should be suspended. On the other hand if you are not convicted of a violent crime but instead a non-violent crime, then one's RTKBA should not be suspended.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    It was well understood prior to the Constitution that natural rights exist (see Declaration of Independence). It was also well understood that if one violates the rights of another, and is convicted in a court of law with proper due process, they can have their rights abridged.


    The way it should work is that if you are convicted of a violent crime, especially with a firearm, then your RTKBA should be suspended. On the other hand if you are not convicted of a violent crime but instead a non-violent crime, then one's RTKBA should not be suspended.
    I thought suspended meant that you would get them back after a period of time.

    sus·pend
    /səˈspend/
    Learn to pronounce
    verb
    1.
    temporarily prevent from continuing or being in force or effect.
    "work on the dam was suspended"
    Truth is Fallacy, Fallacy is Evil.

  12. #10
    Must be right there with food stamps , planned parent hood and earned income tax credit tax refunds greater than what was pd and all that other good stuff that is kind of popular here .
    Do something Danke

  13. #11
    By the Law in the state I was convicted in,, I had a legal right to own a shotgun like the one stolen from my wife,,,

    Michigan wanted to make a Federal Case of it.

    and I got a 4th Felony.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    It was well understood prior to the Constitution that natural rights exist (see Declaration of Independence). It was also well understood that if one violates the rights of another, and is convicted in a court of law with proper due process, they can have their rights abridged.


    The way it should work is that if you are convicted of a violent crime, especially with a firearm, then your RTKBA should be suspended. On the other hand if you are not convicted of a violent crime but instead a non-violent crime, then one's RTKBA should not be suspended.
    It didn't help crime and it should be repealed, there are so many other kinds of weapons they can use and they can obtain them illegally that it's a farce.
    Anyone who shouldn't be allowed guns should be dead or imprisoned for life.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    It was well understood prior to the Constitution that natural rights exist (see Declaration of Independence). It was also well understood that if one violates the rights of another, and is convicted in a court of law with proper due process, they can have their rights abridged.


    The way it should work is that if you are convicted of a violent crime, especially with a firearm, then your RTKBA should be suspended. On the other hand if you are not convicted of a violent crime but instead a non-violent crime, then one's RTKBA should not be suspended.
    Ummmm....no. It was not "understood" that the RTKBA would be suspended post release. How would they even do that? There was no way to do universal background checks back in the 1800s. What was someone going to do? Wait a couple of month for the Pony Express to go back and forth to D.C.?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    I thought suspended meant that you would get them back after a period of time.

    sus·pend
    /səˈspend/
    Learn to pronounce
    verb
    1.
    temporarily prevent from continuing or being in force or effect.
    "work on the dam was suspended"
    ^This
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  17. #15
    Then there is that whole "Violent Crime" thing...

    In my case 3 armed Robberies..

    The bank manager described it at the time as the most polite bank robbery ever..

    I heard in the news.

    My wife was with me 15 yrs before she ever saw me use Violence,, and that was in Defense.

    I lived under an alias for about 8 years.. " Assumed Armed and Dangerous"

    I turned myself in in 1995,, the Lower Monroe County SWAT Team did not want to arrest me.

    Seriously..

    I sat on the trunk of a Cruiser,, with a 40 oz,, and a bunch of armed and armored men that needed to be convinced to take me to jail.

    I showed them my tattoos and had them check,,and told them the story of how I found myself there..

    It was beyond polite,,

    I don't really think I am as Dangerous as I am considered,, and don't like to think myself that way..

    but I have never been really "safe" either.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  18. #16
    "Have You Committed your Three Felonies Today?"

    Jim Jatras At RPI''s Media & War Conference




    http://www.ronpaullibertyreport.com/...war-conference
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3)



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    I thought suspended meant that you would get them back after a period of time.
    Depends on the crime and severity.

    Someone who murders someone with a firearm should never get their right to keep and bear arms back. Someone who holds up a gas station in their 20s should get them back later on in life if they have proven that they are a different person.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It didn't help crime and it should be repealed, there are so many other kinds of weapons they can use and they can obtain them illegally that it's a farce.
    Anyone who shouldn't be allowed guns should be dead or imprisoned for life.
    With rights come responsibilities. So if you misuse or abuse your rights, you lose them, and rightly so. If you misuse a firearm then your right to use a firearm should be denied.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Ummmm....no. It was not "understood" that the RTKBA would be suspended post release. How would they even do that? There was no way to do universal background checks back in the 1800s. What was someone going to do? Wait a couple of month for the Pony Express to go back and forth to D.C.?
    Prior restraint is something different. But you already know that ;-)
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    With rights come responsibilities. So if you misuse or abuse your rights, you lose them, and rightly so. If you misuse a firearm then your right to use a firearm should be denied.
    For as long as you are locked up, if you should be denied the right to arms for life then you should be locked up for life because there are too many other kinds of weapons you might use.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Depends on the crime and severity.

    Someone who murders someone with a firearm should never get their right to keep and bear arms back.
    They should be dead or in prison for life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Someone who holds up a gas station in their 20s should get them back later on in life if they have proven that they are a different person.
    They should get them back as soon as they are out.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    With rights come responsibilities. So if you misuse or abuse your rights, you lose them, and rightly so. If you misuse a firearm then your right to use a firearm should be denied.
    3 cops break/enter your home w/o a warrant. To protect your kid you shoot one of the cops who appears to be aiming in that direction. Chance has it that most everybody in that community opposes guns (heavily democrat) and supports LEO and some are sitting on the jury.

    What now?
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3)

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    It was well understood prior to the Constitution that natural rights exist (see Declaration of Independence). It was also well understood that if one violates the rights of another, and is convicted in a court of law with proper due process, they can have their rights abridged.


    The way it should work is that if you are convicted of a violent crime, especially with a firearm, then your RTKBA should be suspended. On the other hand if you are not convicted of a violent crime but instead a non-violent crime, then one's RTKBA should not be suspended.
    If a man has 'natural rights' which of course I agree, then how do you propose you go about pretending
    those rights are not any longer 'natural' , this to me makes no sense at all.

    If the man is dangerous, the sentence should be long enough to the point he is no longer dangerous
    to society, if that can't be done, than perhaps the sentences should have been longer.

    A man forges a million dollar check , so we know that's a felony, it should be ok to take his 'natural rights away' , you think he's going to shoot someone,
    again, this really doesn't seem to make much sense .


    : shrugs :

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    With rights come responsibilities. So if you misuse or abuse your rights, you lose them, and rightly so. If you misuse a firearm then your right to use a firearm should be denied.
    Under this theory people who "misuse or abuse" their God given right to fornicate (procreate) should lose all "rights" to their genitalia.

    The right to keep and bear arms "MAY NOT BE INFRINGED ON"....



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  29. #25
    Where is "convicted felons can't own guns" in the constitution?
    How could you miss it?

    It's right after the bit about how people who are mentally handicapped or on crazy pills shouldn't be allowed to have guns.

    Just ask Ron Paul ...
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 08-27-2019 at 12:22 PM.


    Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850)

    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law." - The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." - Government (p. 99)
    • "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
      - Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)
    • "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
      - Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)

    · tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito ·
    MOFA (Make Orwell Fiction Again)

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    They should get them back as soon as they are out.
    I tend to agree with that. Either you have served your time and been punished or you haven't.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    3 cops break/enter your home w/o a warrant. To protect your kid you shoot one of the cops who appears to be aiming in that direction. Chance has it that most everybody in that community opposes guns (heavily democrat) and supports LEO and some are sitting on the jury.

    What now?
    You're boned because the government did something illegal and the rest of society are idiots. Get the best defense attorney you can.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    If the man is dangerous, the sentence should be long enough to the point he is no longer dangerous
    to society, if that can't be done, than perhaps the sentences should have been longer.

    A man forges a million dollar check , so we know that's a felony, it should be ok to take his 'natural rights away' , you think he's going to shoot someone,
    again, this really doesn't seem to make much sense .
    No..... the rights should be denied based on the crime. White collar crime shouldn't involve removing someone's rtkba. You should only have your rtkba removed if you have proven yourself to be violent and/or especially if a firearm was used in the commission of a crime (robbing a bank). Or if you are adjudicated mentally ill or incompetent by a court of law with full due process (not red flag laws).
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Under this theory people who "misuse or abuse" their God given right to fornicate (procreate) should lose all "rights" to their genitalia.
    There are ideas that people who rape should be castrated which I can see arguments both for and against. Perhaps that is cruel and unusual?
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    No..... the rights should be denied based on the crime. White collar crime shouldn't involve removing someone's rtkba. You should only have your rtkba removed if you have proven yourself to be violent and/or especially if a firearm was used in the commission of a crime (robbing a bank). Or if you are adjudicated mentally ill or incompetent by a court of law with full due process (not red flag laws).
    My guess is that if they can't use a gun to commit a violent act (considering a violent past) ,
    they will use another tool should they decide to become violent again.

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