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Thread: August 21, 1992: The Siege at Ruby Ridge

  1. #1

    27 years ago today; Ruby Ridge

    Twenty-seven years ago today, the FBI performed a deadly siege on the private property of Randy Weaver and his family at Ruby Ridge.



    Randall and Vicki Weaver and their children wanted nothing more than to be left to live an isolated life in peace in their cabin enclave on a northern Idaho mountaintop called Ruby Ridge. Untrusting of the federal government and of the belief society had taken an insurmountable turn for the worse, the Weavers — as many residents in the remote and breathtaking area — taught their children to be self-sufficient and defend themselves with firearms from unwanted intrusions onto the family’s property.

    But the Weaver’s seemingly idyllic life came to an appallingly violent end over several hours from August 21 to 22, 1992, in a horrendously botched federal raid that would also profoundly alter perceptions about the U.S. government in the minds of even ordinary Americans.

    Often afterward reported to be white supremacists, the Weavers considered themselves race “separatists” only — and intended no harm against others beyond that belief — though their stance often included the company of people with a more vehement ideology.

    Regardless of the Weavers’ beliefs, the account of what federal agents perpetrated against the family under the premise of affecting law enforcement action implores Americans of every race to consider the telling outcome of untrammeled government power run amok.

    In 1989, Randall “Randy” Weaver came under the scrutiny of federal agents intent on infiltrating sometimes-violent white supremacist organizations like the Aryan Nations — and eventually wound up charged for selling two illegal sawed-off shotguns to an undercover agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms [now, also, explosives] (ATF).

    Weaver, notably, claimed he had been set up — thus flatly refusing the government’s offer to drop the charges if he would turn informant, feeding the feds information about various Aryan Nations members — and was indicted in December the following year.

    Though Weaver’s insistence about the set-up leaves his failure to show up for a scheduled court date in February 1991 an altogether open question, a clerical error marking that court date for March didn’t prevent authorities from issuing a warrant for his arrest.

    Knowing the Weavers possessed a relative arsenal — which Randall, Vicki, and their children were well-trained how to use — agents weren’t entirely sure how to carry out the warrant and so began intense surveillance of the family’s mountain home while carefully formulating a plan of action.

    During this period, Vicki reportedly penned several darkly but vaguely threatening letters to federal agents, containing phrases such as “the tyrant’s blood will flow.”

    Considering the family originally relocated to their outpost over mistrust of the government coupled with Randall’s claims concerning the charges which ultimately generated the warrant, Vicki’s language is understandable.

    Remember, whatever narrative about dangerous white separatists federal officials proffered about the Weaver family, Randall had only sold — under questionable circumstances — two sawed-off shotguns to a federal agent, and his failure to appear in court, for all intents and purposes, was the fault of the court clerk’s ultimately egregious error.

    All in all, an isolationist family on a remote mountain hardly posed an imminent threat to anyone.

    Nonetheless, federal marshals set in motion a plan in August 1992 that would send shockwaves across the country and around the world for its deadly ineptitude and wholly disproportionate use of force.

    continued..https://thefreethoughtproject.com/27-years-ruby-ridge/
    "The Patriarch"



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  3. #2
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


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    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  4. #3
    Wow, 27 years ago. It seems like yesterday.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  5. #4
    Larry A. Potts



    Jump to navigationJump to search
    Larry A. Potts
    (spook)
    Alma mater University of Richmond
    Deputy FBI director, fired by Louis Freeh after Ruby Ridge.
    In office
    2006 - Present
    Employer Scientific Games

    In office
    September 2004 - 2006
    Employer Scientific Games

    In office
    1997 - Present
    Employer Investigative Group International

    In office
    July 1995 - 1997
    Employer Federal Bureau of Investigation
    "Training"?

    In office
    May 2, 1995 - July 1995
    Preceded by Larry A. Potts
    Demoted by the director, Louis Freeh.

    In office
    February 1995 - May 2, 1995
    Succeeded by Larry A. Potts

    Acting
    In office
    1974 - February 1995
    Employer Federal Bureau of Investigation
    Various roles.

    Larry A. Potts, was Deputy Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation until a high profile dismissal by his friend Louis Freeh after Ruby Ridge and Waco. His Wikipedia page was created on 16 July 2017‎ .[1]
    Contents




    Larry Potts holds a B.A. in History and Psychology from the University of Richmond.[2]
    After joining the FBI in 1974, Potts worked violent crimes, white-collar crimes and organized crime as a street agent. Later he held numerous management positions in the FBI, including Assistant Director in Charge of the Criminal Investigative Division and Deputy Director.[3][4] A New York Times article on his demotion stated that he was "once the bureau's fastest-rising star".[5]
    Potts was demoted by his friend Louis Freeh after controversy surrounding the events of Ruby Ridge and Waco. He received a letter of censure for failure to provide proper oversight with regard to the rules of engagement employed at Ruby Ridge. "Rogers acknowledged that the Rules of Engagement he proposed specified that any adult with a weapon observed in the vicinity of the Weaver cabin or in the firefight area "could and should be the subject of deadly force." [FN534] According to Rogers he discussed this rule with FBI Assistant Director Larry Potts who concurred fully" Also involved in Waco. ... is now working for Investigative Group International (IGI), a private firm retained by President Clinton to investigate judges, reporters, and other potential enemies of his administration (according to a deposition of IGI director Terry Lenzner). Within the FBI, these special people are called "FOL" - Friends of Louie. [NYT 5/11/97][6] Some of his testimony into the investigations into the two events is available from C-SPAN.[7] When he retired from the FBI in 1997, a dinner was held in his honor in Arlington, Virginia, on October 9, 1997.[8]
    In 1997 Potts retired from the FBI and joined the Investigative Group International, a Washington, D.C. based security consulting company, as the Executive Vice President.
    He served as the Chief of the Public Corruption Unit where he developed guidelines for conducting public corruption investigations. He was named Inspector-In-Charge of the VANPAC Task Force involving the mail bombing deaths of a Federal judge and a civil rights attorney. He supervised that multi-agency task force of several hundred investigators, which resulted in the successful prosecution of the individual responsible.
    Potts has worked for the Scientific Games Corporation since September 2004, and became both Chief Compliance Officer and Director of Security there in February 2006.[2]


    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  6. #5
    War on Us.

    Continues unabated.
    “Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.” - Arnold Toynbee

  7. #6
    Damn I was a baby when this happened.
    "Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."

    Calvin Coolidge

  8. #7
    May every fed involved suffer and rot in the most painful manner!

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Wow, 27 years ago. It seems like yesterday.
    Yes.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi



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  11. #9
    Best documentary on this event?

    I've seen some in the past but do not recall names.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    Best documentary on this event?

    I've seen some in the past but do not recall names.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  13. #11
    You are not paranoid if you have strong hate and suspicion for and of
    our government, corruption and abuse of power are pervasive , not isolated
    to occasional, over zealous agencies nor members.

  14. #12
    And then the following year, in an attempt to rehabilitate their image after the Ruby Ridge fiasco, the feds decided to stage a media-friendly public relations event in the vicinity of Waco, Texas.

    What could go wrong ...?
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 08-21-2023 at 06:18 PM.
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    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law."
      -- The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
      -- Government (p. 99)
    • "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
      -- Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)
    • "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
      -- Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)

    · tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito ·

  15. #13
    Gerry Spence is the lawyer who defended Randy Weaver.

    The following is an excerpt from Spence's book From Freedom to Slavery: The Rebirth of Tyranny in America (St. Martin's Press, N.Y. 1993). This excerpt was reprinted in Liberty magazine (Volume 7, Number 2, January 1994), which you can get as a free PDF here (via the Mises Institute).

    It is an excellent read - highly recommended.



    Randy Weaver's wife was dead, shot through the head while she clutched her child to her breast. His son was shot, twice. First they shot the child's arm -- probably destroyed the arm. The child cried out. Then, as the boy was running, they shot him in the back. Randy Weaver himself had been shot and wounded, and Kevin Harris, a kid the Weavers had all but adopted, was dying of a chest wound. The blood hadn't cooled on Ruby Hill before the national media announced that I had taken the defense of Randy Weaver. Then all hell broke loose. My sister wrote me decrying my defense of this "racist." There were letters to the editors in several papers that expressed their disappointment that I would lend my services to a person with Weaver's beliefs. And I received a letter from my close friend, Alan Hirschfield, the former chairman and chief executive officer of Columbia Pictures and Twentieth Century Fox, imploring me to withdraw. He wrote:

    After much thought I decided to write this letter to you. It represents a very profound concern on my part regarding your decision to represent Randy Weaver. While I applaud and fully understand your motives in taking such a case, I nonetheless find this individual defense troubling. It is so because of the respectability and credibility your involvement imparts to a cause which I find despicable.

    The Aryan Nation, The Brotherhood, and the Order are all groups dedicated to only one premise -- hatred of the unlike by the like. They deny the Holocaust and preach the gospel of ethnic debasement and racist supremacy. They are societal malcontents and misfits who espouse nothing worthwhile. It is the beliefs of these groups that Mr. Weaver represents.

    Mr. Hirschfield went on to argue that my involvement would lend dignity to an illicit and repugnant movement:

    This is not Huey Newton and the Black Panthers fighting 200 years of prejudice and second-class citizenship nor even the PLO seeking a homeland by terrorist method. While I abhor terrorism of any kind I do understand its politics. Not so with the philosophy of the groups Mr. Weaver stands for.

    The issues involved are reminiscent of the recent national uproar over the Warner Brothers recording made by the rap singer Ice T which advocated killing cops. Other tracks on the CD were virulently anti-Semitic and homophobic. The right of Ice T to publicly record these songs was not the issue. What was troublesome to myself and others was the role of Warner Bros. in disseminating his message in the name of preserving their "creative integrity. " I gave an interview on this subject and suggested that at least in business there was a line to be drawn between unbridled creative freedom and corporate responsibility. In Warner's case they could have chosen not to distribute this record (it still would have found a distributor); instead they trumpeted the creative freedom argument and by lending their world-renowned prestige to the issue they imparted to Ice T and his message a legitimacy wholly undeserved and in doing so made the recording a national hit in contrast to his previous mediocre results.

    My premise, therefore, is not the right of Weaver or anyone else to the best possible defense but rather the message sent when the finest trial lawyer in America undertakes that defense, simply to make that point. The message, I believe, will embolden those espousing the cause Weaver represents and encourage other mindless haters to join up. The resultant media attention will provide a platform previously never enjoyed by those people.

    I clearly know this is not your intent in defending Mr. Weaver but I believe ... there is a time when a person of your extraordinary talent and commitment, and knowing full well the notoriety that comes with your representation, perhaps demurs, rather than allow legitimacy and notoriety to a sick and twisted philosophy.

    As you know, I am not a religious person ... but I am keenly conscious of my heritage and the endless persecution Jews throughout the world have suffered. There is in my mind no worse group of people than those involved here who espouse both hatred and violence against blacks and other minorities without purpose other than hatred itself. They don't need a homeland, they don't propose alternatives, and they don't want a solution other than the one Hitler sought. As a result of your involvement these same people will be given a greatly expanded voice at this trial.

    It is because of this that I write and ask you to reconsider your decision to involve yourself in this case. I do so out of total respect and personal affection for you. And, of course, whatever your decision you will always have the same respect and that same affection from me.

    Your friend,
    Alan J. Hirschfield

    The next day I delivered the following by carrier to Mr. Hirschfield:

    I cherish your letter. It reminds me once again of our friendship, for only friends can speak and hear each other in matters so deeply a part of the soul. And your letter reminds me as well, as we all must be reminded, of the unspeakable pain every Jew has suffered from the horrors of the Holocaust. No better evidence of our friendship could be shown than your intense caring concerning what I do and what I stand for.

    I met Randy Weaver in jail on the evening of his surrender. His eyes had no light in them. He was unshaven and dirty. He was naked except for yellow plastic prison coveralls, and he was cold. His small feet were clad in rubber prison sandals. In the stark setting of the prison conference room he seemed diminutive and fragile. He had spent eleven days in a standoff against the government, and he had lost. His wife was dead. His son was dead. His friend was near death. Weaver himself had been wounded. He had lost his freedom. He had lost it all. And now he stood face to face with a stranger who towered over him and whose words were not words of comfort. When I spoke, you, Alan, were on my mind.

    "My name is Gerry Spence," I began. I'm the lawyer you've been told about. Before we begin to talk I want you to understand that I do not share any of your political or religious beliefs. Many of my dearest friends are Jews. My daughter is married to a Jew. My Sister is married to a black man She has adopted a black child. I deplore what the Nazis stood for. If I defend you I will not defend your political beliefs or your religious beliefs, but your rights as an American citizen to a fair trial." His quiet answer was, "That is all I ask." Then I motioned him to a red plastic chair and I took a similar one. And as the guards marched by and from time to time peered in, he told his story.

    Alan, you are a good and fair man. That I know. Were it otherwise we would not be such good friends. Yet it is your pain I hear most clearly -- exacerbated, I know, by the fact that your friend should represent your enemy. Yet what drew me to this case was my own pain. Let me tell you the facts.

    Randy Weaver's principal crime against the government had been his failure to appear in court on a charge of possessing illegal firearms. The first crime was not his. He had been entrapped -- intentionally, systematically, patiently, purposely entrapped -- by a federal agent who solicited him to cut off, contrary to federal law, the barrels of a couple of shotguns. Randy Weaver never owned an illegal weapon in his life. He was not engaged in the manufacture of illegal weapons The idea of selling illegal weapons had never entered his mind until the government agent suggested it and encouraged him to act illegally. The government knew he needed the money. He is as poor as an empty cupboard. He had three daughters, a son, and a wife to support. He lived in a small house in the woods without electricity or running water. Although he is a small, frail man, with tiny, delicate hands who probably weighs no more than a hundred twenty pounds, he made an honest living by chopping firewood and by seasonal work as a logger.

    This man is wrong. His beliefs are wrong. His relationship to mankind is wrong. He was perhaps legally wrong when he failed to appear and defend himself in court. But the first wrong was not his. Nor was the first wrong the government's. The first wrong was ours.

    In this country we embrace the myth that we are still a democracy when we know that we are not a democracy, that we are not free, that the government does not serve us but subjugates us. Although we give lip service to the notion of freedom, we know the government is no longer the servant of the people but, at last, has become the people's master. We have stood by like timid sheep while the wolf killed -- first the weak, then the strays, then those on the outer edges of the flock, until at last the whole flock belonged to the wolf. We did not care much about the weak or about the strays They were not a part of the flock. We did not care much about those on the edges. They had chosen to be there. But as the wolf worked its way toward the center of the flock we discovered that we were now on the outer edges. Now we must look the wolf squarely in the eye. That we did not do so when the first of us was ripped and torn and eaten was the first wrong. It was our wrong.

    That none of us have felt responsible for having lost our freedom has been a part of an insidious progression. In the beginning the attention of the flock was directed not to the marauding wolf but to our own deviant members within the flock. We rejoiced when the wolf destroyed them, for they were our enemies. We were told that the weak lay under the rocks while we faced the blizzards to rustle our food, and we did not care when the wolf took them. We argued that they deserved it. When one of our flock faced the wolf alone it was always eaten. Each of us was afraid of the wolf, but as a flock we were not afraid. Indeed, the wolf helped us by destroying the weak and dismembering the aberrant element within. As time went by, strangely the herd felt more secure under the rule of the wolf. It believed that by belonging to this wolf it would remain safe from all the other wolves. But we were eaten just the same.

    No one knows better than the children of the Holocaust how the lessons of history must never be forgotten. Yet Americans, whose battle cry was once "Give me liberty or give me death," have sat placidly by as a new king was crowned. In America a new king was crowned by the shrug of our shoulders when our neighbors were wrongfully seized. A new king was crowned when we capitulated to a regime that was no longer sensitive to people but to non-people -- to corporations, to money, and to power. The new king was crowned when we turned our heads as the poor and the forgotten and the damned were rendered mute and defenseless, not because they were evil but because in the scheme of our lives, they seemed unimportant, not because they were essentially dangerous but because they were essentially powerless. The new king was crowned when we cheered the government on as it prosecuted the progeny of our ghettos and filled our prisons with black men whose first crime was that they were born in the ghettos. We cheered the new king on as it diluted our right to be secure in our homes against unlawful searches and secure in the courts against unlawful evidence. We cheered the new king on because we were told that our sacred rights were but "loopholes" by which our enemies, the murderers and rapists and thieves and drug dealers, escaped. We were told that those who fought for their rights, the lawyers, were worse than the thieves who stole from us in the night, that our juries were irresponsible and ignorant and ought not be trusted. We watched with barely more than a mumble as the legal system that once protected us became populated with judges who were appointed by the new king. At last the new king was crowned when we forgot the lessons of history, that when the rights of our enemies have been wrested from them, our own rights have been lost as well, for the same rights serve both citizen and criminal.

    When Randy Weaver failed to appear in court because he had lost his trust in the government, we witnessed the fruits of our crime. The government, indeed, had no intent to protect his rights. The government had but one purpose as it remains today, the disengagement of this citizen from society. Those who suffered and died in the Holocaust must have exquisitely understood such illicit motivations of power.

    I have said that I was attracted to the case out of my own pain. Let me tell you the facts: A crack team of trained government marksmen sneaked onto Randy Weaver's small isolated acreage on a reconnaissance mission preparatory to a contemplated arrest. They gave Randy no warning of their coming. They came without a warrant. They never identified themselves.

    The Weavers owned three dogs, two small crossbred collie mutts and a yellow lab, a big pup a little over a year old whose most potent weapon was his tail with which he could beat a full-grown man to death. The dog, Striker, was a close member of the Weaver family. Not only was he a companion for the children, but in the winter he pulled the family sled to haul their water supply from the spring below. When the dogs discovered the intruders, they raised a ruckus, and Randy, his friend Kevin, and Randy's 14 year-old son Sam grabbed their guns and followed the dogs to investigate.

    When the government agents were confronted with the barking dog, they did what men who have been taught to kill do. They shot Striker. The boy, barely larger than a ten-year old child, heard his dog's yelp, saw the dog fall, and, as a 14 year-old might, he returned the fire. Then the government agents shot the child in the arm. He turned and ran, the arm flopping, and when he did the officers, still unidentified as such, shot the child in the back and killed him.

    Kevin Harris witnessed the shooting of the dog. Then he saw Sam being shot as he turned around and ran. To Kevin there was no alternative. He knew if he ran these three intruders, whoever they were, would kill him as well. In defense of himself, he raised his rifle and shot in the direction of the officer who had killed the boy. Then, while the officers were in disarray, Kevin retreated to the Weaver cabin.

    In the meantime, Randy Weaver had been off in another direction and only heard the shooting, the dog's yelp, and the gunfire that followed. Randy hollered for his son and shot his shotgun in the air to attract the boy.

    "Come on home, Sam. Come home."

    Over and over he called.

    Finally he heard the boy call back: "I'm comin', Dad." Those were the last words he ever heard from his son.

    Later that same day Randy, Kevin, and Vicki Weaver, Randy's wife, went down to where the boy lay and carried his body back to an outbuilding near their cabin. There they removed the child's clothing and bathed his wounds and prepared the body. The next evening, Weaver's oldest daughter, Sarah, 16, Kevin and Randy went back to the shed to have a last look at Sam. When they did, the government snipers opened fire. Randy was hit in the shoulder. The three turned and ran for the house where Vicki, with her ten-month-old baby in her arms, stood holding the door open. As the three entered the house Vicki was shot and slowly fell to her knees, her head resting on the floor like one kneeling in prayer. Randy ran up and took the baby that she clutched, and then he lifted his wife's head. Half of her face was blown away.

    Kevin was also hit. Huge areas of muscle in his arm had been blown out, and his lung was punctured in several places. Randy and his 16-year-old daughter stretched the dead mother on the floor of the cabin and covered her with a blanket where she remained for over eight days as the siege progressed.

    By this time there were officers by the score, troops, armored personnel carriers, helicopters, radios, televisions, robots, and untold armaments surrounding the house. I will not burden you with the misery and the horror the family suffered in the standoff. I will tell you that finally Bo Gritz, Randy's former commander in the Special Forces, came to help in the negotiations. Gritz told Randy that if he would surrender, Gritz would guarantee him a fair trial, and before the negotiations came to an end, Randy came to the belief that I would represent him. Although Gritz had contacted me before he spoke to Randy, I had only agreed to talk to Randy. But the accuracy of what was said between Gritz and me and what was heard by Randy somehow got lost in the horror, and Randy's belief that I would represent him if he surrendered was, in part, his motivation for finally submitting to arrest.

    And so my friend, Alan, you can now understand the pain I feel in this case. It is the pain that comes from the realization that we have permitted a government to act in our name and on our behalf in a criminal fashion. It is the pain of watching the government as it now attempts to lie about its complicity in this affair and to cover its crimes by charging Randy with crimes he did not commit, including murder. It is the pain of seeing an innocent woman with her child in her arms murdered and innocent children subjected to these atrocities. Indeed, as a human being, I feel Randy's irrepressible pain and horror and grief.

    I also feel your pain, my friend. Yet I also know that in the end, if you were the judge at the trial of Adolph Eichmann, you would have insisted that he not have ordinary counsel, but the best counsel. In the same way, if you were the judge in Randy's case, and you had the choice, I have no doubt that despite your own pain you might well have appointed me to defend him. In the end you would know that the Holocaust must never stand for part justice, or average justice, but for that most notable of ideals -- that even the enemies of the Jews themselves must receive the best justice the system can provide. If it were otherwise, the meaning of the Holocaust would be accordingly besmirched.

    Alan, I agree with your arguments. They are proper and they are true. I agree that my defense of Randy Weaver may attach a legitimacy and a dignity to his politics and religion. But it may, as well, stand for the proposition that there are those who do not condone this kind of criminal action by our government I view the defense of Randy Weaver's case as an opportunity to address a more vital issue, one that transcends a white separatist movement or notions of the supremacy of one race over another, for the ultimate enemy of any people is not the angry hate groups that fester within, but a government itself that has lost its respect for the individual. The ultimate enemy of democracy is not the drug dealer or the crooked politician or the crazed skin head. The ultimate enemy is the New King that has become so powerful it can murder its own citizens with impunity.

    To the same extent that Randy Weaver cannot find justice in this country we, too, will soon be deprived of justice. At last, my defense of Randy Weaver is a defense of every Jew and every gentile, for every black and every gay who loves freedom and deplores tyranny.

    Although I understand that it will be easy for my defense of Randy Weaver to be confused with an endorsement of the politics of the Aryan Nation, my challenge will be to demonstrate that we can still be a nation where the rights of the individual, despite his race, color, or religion, remain supreme. If this be not so, it is because we have forgotten the lessons of our histories -- the history of the American Revolution as well as the history of the Holocaust.

    And so my friend, Alan, if I were to withdraw from the defense of Randy Weaver as you request, I would be required to abandon my belief that this system has any remaining virtue. I would be more at fault than the federal government that has murdered these people, for I have not been trained to murder but to defend. I would be less of a man than my client who had the courage of his convictions. I would lose all respect for myself. I would be unable to any longer be your friend, for friendship must always have its foundation in respect. Therefore as my friend, I ask that you not require this of me. I ask, instead, for your prayers, your understanding, and your continued love.

    As ever,
    Gerry Spence
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 08-21-2019 at 09:59 PM.

  16. #14
    And here we are.

    Randy Weaver, and his family, WAS a "red flag."

  17. #15
    and eventually wound up charged for selling two illegal sawed-off shotguns
    Wow. Without a license??? They basically did this to themselves.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    And here we are.

    Randy Weaver, and his family, WAS a "red flag."
    And you can add the Branch Davidians to the list, too ...



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    And you can add the Branch Davidians to the list, too ...
    Certainly.

  21. #18
    Trump appointed AG Bill Barr needs to answer for his role in Ruby Ridge:


    https://gunowners.org/bill-barr-need...in-ruby-ridge/
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    And here we are.

    Randy Weaver, and his family, WAS a "red flag."
    and the then "Patriot Movement" and "Militia" went underground.. and silent,,
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  23. #20

    August 21, 1992: The Siege at Ruby Ridge



    The Siege at Ruby Ridge is often considered a pivotal date in American history. The shootout between Randy Weaver and his family and federal agents on August 21, 1992, is one that kicked off the Constitutional Militia Movement and left America with a deep distrust of its leadership – in particular then-President George H.W. Bush and eventual President Bill Clinton and Attorney General Janet Reno.

    The short version is this: Randy Weaver and his wife Vicki moved with their four kids to the Idaho Panhandle, near the Canadian border, to escape what they thought was an increasingly corrupt world. The Weavers held racial separatist beliefs, but were not involved in any violent activity or rhetoric. They were peaceful Christians who simply wanted to be left alone.

    Specifically for his beliefs, Randy Weaver was targeted by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) in an entrapping “sting” operation designed to gain his cooperation as a snitch. When he refused to become a federal informant, he was charged with illegally selling firearms. Due to a miscommunication about his court date, the Marshal Service was brought in, who laid siege to his house and shot and killed his wife and 14-year-old son.

    Randy Weaver was, in many ways, a typical American story. He grew up in an Iowa farming community. He got decent grades in high school and played football. His family attended church regularly. He dropped out of community college and joined the United States Army in 1970. After three years of service, he was honorably discharged.

    One month later he married Victoria Jordison. He then enrolled in the University of Northern Iowa, studying criminal justice with an eye toward becoming an FBI Agent. However, he dropped out because the tuition was too expensive. He ended up working in a John Deere plant while his wife worked as a secretary before becoming a homemaker.

    Both of the Weavers increasingly became apocalyptic in their view of the world. This, combined with an increasing emphasis on Old Testament-based Christianity, led them to seek a life away from mainstream America, a life of self-reliance. Vicki, in particular, had strong visions of her family surviving the apocalypse through life far away from what they viewed as a corrupt world. To that end, Randy purchased a 20-acre farm in Ruby Ridge, ID, and built a cabin there.

    The land was purchased for $5,000 in cash and the trade of the truck they used to move there. Vicki homeschooled the children.

    The Weavers Move to Ruby Ridge

    After moving to Ruby Ridge, Weaver became acquainted with members of the Aryan Nations in nearby Hayden Lake. He even attended some rallies. The FBI believed his involvement in the church was much deeper than it actually was – they thought he was a regular congregant of the Aryan Nations and had attended the Aryan Nations World Congress.

    Both Randy and Vicki were interviewed by the FBI in 1985, with Randy denying membership in the group, citing profound theological differences. Indeed, the Weavers (who had some points of agreement with the Aryan Nations, primarily about the importance of the Old Testament) mostly saw their affiliation with the Aryan Nations as a social outlet. Living off-grid, the nearby members of the Aryan Nations were neighbors in remote northern Idaho.

    Later, in 1986, Randy was approached at a rally by undercover ATF informant Kenneth Faderley, who used a biker alter ego of Gus Magisono and was currently monitoring and investigating Weaver’s friend Frank Kumnick. Faderley introduced himself as an illegal firearms dealer from New Jersey. Randy later encountered Faderley at the World Congress of 1987. He skipped the next year’s Congress to run for county sheriff, an election that he lost.

    The ATF claims that in 1989, Faderley purchased two illegally shortened shotguns from Randy Weaver. However, Weaver disputes this, saying that the shotguns he sold Faderley were entirely legal and were shortened after the fact. The notes from the case show that Faderley purchased the guns and showed Weaver where to shorten them, which would constitute illegal entrapment. What’s more, the government preyed on the destitute nature of the Weavers, who lived in a small cabin in the woods with no electricity or running water.

    The real purpose of the investigation was not to grab Weaver, but to use him to infiltrate a group in Montana being organized by Charles Howarth. In November 1989, Weaver refused to introduce Faderley to Howarth, and Faderley was ordered by his handlers to have no further contact with Weaver.

    Randy Weaver Refuses to Turn Snitch

    In June 1990, Faderley’s cover was blown. It was then that the ATF reached out to Weaver, stating that they had evidence he was dealing illegal firearms. They told him they would drop all charges if he would agree to become their new informant regarding the investigation of the Aryan Nations groups in the area. Weaver refused.

    To coerce him into changing his mind, the Feds staged a stunt where a broken down couple were at the side of the road. Weaver stopped to help them and was handcuffed, thrown face down in the snow and arrested. He had to post his home as bond. Still he refused to become a federal informant.

    The irony of the federal government’s desire to obtain informants within the Aryan Nations is that different branches of federal law enforcement and intelligence gathering occupied five of the six key positions in the organization. This means that the Aryan Nations were effectively a government-run shop, with agents spying on each other to ensure the integrity of an investigation – into an organization almost entirely run by the federal government.

    The government had an obsession with the Aryan Nations due to Robert Jay Matthews, who was a member of The Order, a terrorist organization including members of the Aryan Nations. The FBI’s Hostage Rescue Team burned Matthews alive inside his own home.

    Due to his ongoing refusal to snitch, Weaver was then arrested in January 1991, on illegal firearms sales charges. These charges stemmed from Weaver’s earlier “sale” of two shortened shotguns to Faderley, the undercover ATF agent – a sale which the feds later admitted constituted illegal entrapment.

    Weaver’s court date was set for February 19, 1991, then changed to the next day. Weaver, however, received notice that his court date was not until March 20. He missed his February court appearance and a bench warrant was issued for his arrest. The United States Marshals Service wanted to allow Weaver the chance to appear for what he thought was his court date, however, the United States Attorney’s Office sought a grand jury indictment on March 14th – six days before his notice said he was due in court.

    Already skeptical of the Feds after their repeated strongarm tactics, both Randy and Vicki saw this as further evidence that Weaver would not receive a fair trial. They increasingly isolated themselves on their Ruby Ridge farm, vowing to fight rather than surrender peacefully.

    During the standoff, a voluntary surrender date was negotiated with the Marshals Service for October 1991, but the United States Attorney’s Office refused the settlement. The Deputy Director of the Special Operations Group of the Marshals Service, using evidence obtained through surveillance, believed that the best course of action was to drop the indictment, issue a new one under seal, and use undercover agents to arrest Weaver, who presumably would have dropped his guard. This recommendation was again rejected.

    Continue reading Siege at Ruby Ridge: The Forgotten History of the ATF Shootout That Started a Militia Movement at Ammo.com
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 08-21-2023 at 06:05 PM. Reason: removed font & color tags

  24. #21

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Bern View Post
    I haven't forgotten.
    Nor have I.

  26. #23

  27. #24
    Not to imply that you had! We've just found that titles like these grab the average Joe's attention a little better. Sounds a lot better than Siege at Ruby Ridge: Everything You Already Knew About the ATF Shootout That Started a Militia Movement.



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  29. #25
    I would say...kind of an overreaction to a guy possibly selling shotguns with barrels less in length than by what the Official Fatwas decreed. Just kind of...
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


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  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    I would say...kind of an overreaction to a guy possibly selling shotguns with barrels less in length than by what the Official Fatwas decreed. Just kind of...
    They were looking to make an example of someone, anyone.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  31. #27
    29th anniversary bump

    Do not forget.
    The Bastiat Collection · FREE PDF · FREE EPUB · PAPER
    Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850)

    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law."
      -- The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
      -- Government (p. 99)
    • "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
      -- Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)
    • "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
      -- Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)

    · tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito ·

  32. #28
    https://twitter.com/whiskeynrebel/st...66127225806853

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    https://twitter.com/whiskeynrebel/st...66127225806853
    And let the record show that Weaver did not, in fact, buy or sell any illegal firearms. From Wiki: "A federal grand jury indicted Weaver in December 1990 for making and possessing, but not for selling, illegal weapons in October 1989." And note that this incident was the only aspect of the entire war campaign waged by the Feds against Weaver that was not wholly a figment of their fevered imagination. He did indeed have a few weapons under legal length. He was also a military veteran (Green Beret) ... so this is the kind of thing that, if the ATF really had an issue with it, should have been handled delicately and in accordance with common-sense. Why are you throwing the book at someone that you yourselves trained and armed with C4 and automatic weapons?? The story doesn't add up because the real reasons the Weavers were attacked had nothing to do with firearms and everything to do with an out-of-control Federal police state that has only gotten a trillion times worse since then. God help any innocent caught in its jaws nowadays...
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  34. #30

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