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Thread: Learn Liberty - Full Debate: Is Immigration a Human Right?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    No the illegal immigrant drove a van and ran over my coworker on his motorcycle. It wasn't hypthetical.
    Okay...

    You are aware that Americans also negligently run people over with motor vehicles? What do you propose be done about that? If "some immigrants run people over, therefore deport them" is sound, then "some Americans run people over, therefore deport them" must be too, no?



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Okay...

    You are aware that Americans also negligently run people over with motor vehicles? What do you propose be done about that? If "some immigrants run people over, therefore deport them" is sound, then "some Americans run people over, therefore deport them" must be too, no?
    It doesn't matter if Americans do something where they are supposed to be. If the government did their job John with be alive



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    It doesn't matter if Americans do something where they are supposed to be. If the government did their job John with be alive
    If Bob-born-in-the-USA had been deported, the person he killed would still be alive.

    So, why shouldn't Bob have been deported?

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    If Bob-born-in-the-USA had been deported, the person he killed would still be alive.

    So, why shouldn't Bob have been deported?
    She was deported afterwards, why did they deport her afterwards?

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    She was deported afterwards, why did they deport her afterwards?
    Who's she? I don't know what you mean.

    ...in case there was any confusion, Bob-born-in-the-USA identifies as a dude (as opposed to, say, a female penguin).

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Who's she? I don't know what you mean.

    ...in case there was any confusion, Bob-born-in-the-USA identifies as a dude (as opposed to, say, a female penguin).
    She the illegal immigrant was deported after she ran over my coworker on his motorcycle. Why was she deported?

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    She the illegal immigrant was deported after she ran over my coworker on his motorcycle. Why was she deported?
    Because the law required it I suppose.

    What's your point?

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Because the law required it I suppose.

    What's your point?
    Why doesn't American citizen Jim Bob get deported after running over someone riding their motorycle?

  11. #39
    No.
    It isn't.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Why doesn't American citizen Jim Bob get deported after running over someone riding their motorycle?
    Because the law says he doesn't.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    Correct , your constant aggressive-assault to on this forum is not about our founders, our Constitution ,
    nor peace and harmony, throughout a productive country, its about your idiotic continual agenda to promote
    open border Globalism, it works nowhere on earth so you want to do it here, you promote this constant
    gibberish 24/7 , I'm sick of it , I'm shocked that others don't see what you're doing here , right under
    their noses.


    Shiff derailed nothing, he is on topic you are way out of order, your agenda is racist, hateful and
    a danger to this great Nation, you are the enemy.
    ^^^THIS^^^

    Immigration is only a human right if imposing your culture and political beliefs on others against their will is a human right.

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Because the law says he doesn't.
    Because Jim Bob was born here and has nowhere else he has a right to go.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    ^^^THIS^^^

    Immigration is only a human right if imposing your culture and political beliefs on others against their will is a human right.
    PAF and other infiltrators hide behind the NAP ideal , you just shattered it, they are herpes incarnate.
    But at least some of us know who, and what they are.


  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    PAF and other infiltrators hide behind the NAP ideal , you just shattered it, they are herpes incarnate.
    But at least some of us know who, and what they are.

    It matters very little whether each of them is an actual enemy or a useful idiot.
    They are destroyers and subversives.

    They aren't herpes, they are syphilis.

  18. #45
    Some takes from the debate:


    Wellman's position - pro-closed borders:

    Advocates "self determination" starts and ends with the state.

    Global justice is more important than freedom of association.

    Wealthy countries should be doing more for global justice.

    Advocates duties of distributed justice.

    Should transfer money and resources elsewhere.

    Refugees have the right to refuge but not become members of a society.

    Everybody is consented to the government.

    ___________________


    Caplan's position - open borders:

    Advocates freedom to associate if you want to, freedom to not associate if you do not want to.

    Caplan asked Wellman multiple times: why do you always side with the government?. Wellman would not provide a clear-cut answer. Wellman went on to say yes there is a cost to self-determination. It is important for "groups" to make decisions. But if you want to associate with somebody over dinner, it is ok.

    Caplan wants to hire somebody to work. Wellman is concerned that Caplan would invite everybody from the country. Wellman states that discretion to the individual would have profound implications to the group as a whole. Wellman tells Caplan that Caplan "is absolutely right" but still disagrees with Caplan.

    Wellman: The U.S. has a duty to transfer wealth.

    Caplan: Why can't somebody take a job from an employer willing to hire them?

    Wellman: It will have implications for the group.

    Caplan: You're appealing to grossly impoverishing them. Your argument is not relevant.

    Wellman: You're getting away from immigration.

    Caplan: It is directly related to immigration.

    Wellman: It's more realistic that the U.S. "help" other countries than to open the borders.

    Caplan: Governments are not voluntary organizations; they restrict people from association.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3)

  19. #46
    So, @nikcers, any thoughts on why the law deports Jose the car killer, but not Bob the car killer?

    What's the difference?

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    So, @nikcers, any thoughts on why the law deports Jose the car killer, but not Bob the car killer?

    What's the difference?
    One is an American citizen one isn't an American citizen. Citizenship means something, American culture matters.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    One is an American citizen one isn't an American citizen. Citizenship means something, American culture matters.
    Right, it has nothing to do with running people over with a car

    If it did, that would apply to everyone; but you don't apply it to everyone.

    Jose runs somebody over, deportation!

    Bob runs somebody over, ...

    It's entirely about where Bob and Jose were born.

    For an ideology (libertarianism) which is about individual rights, tell me why an individual who happens to be born elsewhere should have no rights.

    "Well, Mr. Knickers, if I put you in a cage that would be a crime, don't you think?

    Wait, you were born on a different latitude...?

    Nevermind, now I can cage you with a good conscience; you were born at a certain latitude and therefore have no rights."

    ...does that make sense?



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It matters very little whether each of them is an actual enemy or a useful idiot.
    They are destroyers and subversives.

    They aren't herpes, they are syphilis.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Swordsmyth again.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Right, it has nothing to do with running people over with a car

    If it did, that would apply to everyone; but you don't apply it to everyone.

    Jose runs somebody over, deportation!

    Bob runs somebody over, ...

    It's entirely about where Bob and Jose were born.

    For an ideology (libertarianism) which is about individual rights, tell me why an individual who happens to be born elsewhere should have no rights.

    "Well, Mr. Knickers, if I put you in a cage that would be a crime, don't you think?

    Wait, you were born on a different latitude...?

    Nevermind, now I can cage you with a good conscience; you were born at a certain latitude and therefore have no rights."

    ...does that make sense?
    No it matters if they are a citizen thats why i said it that way.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    No it matters if they are a citizen thats why i said it that way.
    And why's that?

    People who happen to have been born in a particular place have rights.

    ...and the rest are just, yuck, like not even people; they exist to be used and abused by others.

    Is that the idea?

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    And why's that?

    People who happen to have been born in a particular place have rights.

    ...and the rest are just, yuck, like not even people; they exist to be used and abused by others.

    Is that the idea?
    If another country attacks a country that isn't America should we be involved? They are people born in another place so I guess by your standards we should.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    If another country attacks a country that isn't America should we be involved? They are people born in another place so I guess by your standards we should.
    How about this radical idea; human beings have rights; aggression against human beings is wrong.

    ...I thought that was the whole purpose of libertarianism: silly me.

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    How about this radical idea; human beings have rights; aggression against human beings is wrong.

    ...I thought that was the whole purpose of libertarianism: silly me.
    Yeah world police libertarianism. Terror attack in south Africa. We better get inovlved. China taking over African continent, we better go to war and get involved.

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Yeah world police libertarianism.
    I guess I missed the asterisk in Rothbard:

    *the rights above expressed apply only to people born within an arbitrary geographical radius of where you, the reader, were born

    Terror attack in south Africa. We better get inovlved. China taking over African continent, we better go to war and get involved.
    We better remember what it is we're trying to do in the first place.

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I guess I missed the asterisk in Rothbard:

    *the rights above expressed apply only to people born within an arbitrary geographical radius of where you, the reader, were born



    We better remember what it is we're trying to do in the first place.
    We aren't trying to erase the American culture by letting everying who wants to come here come here. That wasn't ever something Ron Paul or Rand Paul advocated for. Most peopple wouldn't even come here if the immigration reform policies Ron Paul has advocated for were passed.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    We aren't trying to erase the American culture by letting everying who wants to come here come here.
    That sounds a lot like:

    The neighbors don't favor the colour I painted my house, therefore they have the right to force me to paint it othwerwise.

    ...No, they don't, $#@! them, property rights disregarding bolshevik scum.

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That sounds a lot like:

    The neighbors don't favor the colour I painted my house, therefore they have the right to force me to paint it othwerwise.

    ...No, they don't, $#@! them, property rights disregarding bolshevik scum.
    You just don't care about the constitution I get it. Naturalization doesn't mean anything because $#@! America and you are racist for wanting America to be America.

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    And why's that?

    People who happen to have been born in a particular place have rights.

    ...and the rest are just, yuck, like not even people; they exist to be used and abused by others.

    Is that the idea?
    They have rights in their territory.

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That sounds a lot like:

    The neighbors don't favor the colour I painted my house, therefore they have the right to force me to paint it othwerwise.

    ...No, they don't, $#@! them, property rights disregarding bolshevik scum.
    Liberty is part of culture.

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