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Thread: Abolish the Federal Death Penalty

  1. #1

    Abolish the Federal Death Penalty

    08/13/2019

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    After almost twenty years without an execution, the Federal penal system has decided to proceed with a number of executions. NPR reported last month:


    U.S. Attorney General William Barr has instructed the Federal Bureau of Prisons to change the federal execution protocol to include capital punishment, the Justice Department said.

    Barr also asked the prisons bureau to schedule the executions of five inmates who have been found guilty of murder. According to the DOJ, the victims in each case included children and the elderly. In some of the cases, the convicted murderers also tortured and raped their victims.



    Is the Death Penalty Ever Warranted?


    I am not an anti-death-penalty absolutist. That is, in some cases where the testimony and physical evidence is overwhelming — and the crimes are particularly heinous — the death penalty could be warranted, at least in theory.

    But given police corruption, incompetent prosecutors, and an over-reliance on circumstantial evidence in court, a great many death-penalty cases are built on a pretty shaky foundation. Moreover, it is extremely likely that innocent people have been executed in the United States whether through errors, or through outright fraud on the part of government officials.

    In other words, the death penalty is serious business, and given that government bureaucrats can't even run the DMV or the VA competently, there's no reason to assume their criminal-justice skills are anything deserving of our unconditional trust.

    Nevertheless, it is conceivable that the death penalty could be justly applied in some cases.


    There's No Need for a Federal Death Penalty


    When examining the federal death penalty, however, it quickly becomes apparent that it is simply unnecessary — and should be completely abolished.


    State laws already address the need to prosecute violent criminals. Murder, rape, assault, and other violent crimes are already illegal in every state of the Union. If Smith murders Wilson in, say, Pennsylvania, Smith can be tried for murder under Pennsylvania law. This is true even if Smith employs bombs, airplanes, or other tools associated with international terrorism.

    There is no need for an extra layer of federal criminal justice. For example, Timothy McVeigh, who was convicted of the Oklahoma City bombing, was certainly eligible to be tried for murder under Oklahoma law. Those who perpetrated 9/11 were certainly eligible to be tried for murder under New York and Virginia laws. But McVeigh was tried for the federal crime of killing a federal agent. Zacarias Moussaoui was prosecuted in federal court for his role in the 9/11 attacks, specifically "conspiracy to murder United States employees," among other crimes.

    Although these sorts of killings are certainly illegal in the states where they occur, the federal government insists on having prerogatives to prosecute defendants under federal law also. This is often done to add an additional layer of possible prosecution, and so that defendants can be prosecuted more than once for the same crime. This is a violation of the Bill or Rights, of course (as explained by Justice Neil Gorsuch) but federal courts have looked the other way on this loophole for years.

    Besides, cases of terrorism or international crime rings are hardly what's behind most capital cases in federal court. We're not talking about Russian crime bosses or domestic supervillains. On the contrary, nearly all defendants in capital cases in federal court are brought to trial for run-of-the-mill crimes involving drug deals, bank robberies, or other acts that are already violations of state criminal statutes.

    Moreover, in some cases, federal prosecutors deliberately go against the wishes of local prosecutors.

    Lezmond Mitchell, for example, is a Navajo Indian who was convicted of murdering a Navajo woman and her granddaughter on Navajo land. He is now awaiting execution in a federal prison.

    But note the murders took place on Navajo land, and Navajo law does not allow the death penalty. Nonetheless, the federal government inserted itself into the case. According to an analysis by The Intercept:



    the U.S. government had forced itself onto the case. For one, because the murder alone was not punishable by death under tribal law, seeking the death penalty was “possible only by virtue of the fact that Mitchell and a fellow Navajo, aged 16, stole a car in connection with the murders they committed,” [ Judge Stephen Reinhardt wrote in a legal dissent on the case.] The Anti Car Theft Act of 1992 had made carjacking a federal crime — and the 1994 crime bill had made carjacking resulting in death a crime punishable by death. “In the absence of the carjacking, Mitchell would not have been eligible for the death penalty.”

    “Equally important,” Reinhardt went on, “none of the people closely connected to the case wanted Mitchell to be subjected to the death penalty: not the victims’ family, not the Navajo Nation — of which the victims and perpetrators were all members and on whose land the crime occurred — and not the United States attorney whose job it was to prosecute Mitchell.”



    No one directly involved with the case who lived within 500 miles of the reservation demanded the death penalty. But then-US Attorney General John Ashcroft intervened to ensure the death penalty was on the table.


    Expanding Federal Powers


    The fact that a car theft had allowed the federal government to demand jurisdiction in the Mitchell case reflects a longtime strategy used by federal lawmakers to expand federal jurisdiction over time. By gradually adding more and more federal criminal offenses to the statute books, federal policymakers have made it possible for the federal government to insinuate iselfs into an ever growing number of crminal investigations.

    The US Constitution, meanwhile, only mentions three federal crimes: treason, piracy, and counterfeiting. Only piracy involves crimes that necessarily occur beyond the jurisdiction of state laws against violent crime. Counterfeiting, in contrast, is merely a type of fraud. And fraud is already illegal in every state. Treason is only a real problem if it involves violent acts against others — in which case it is already covered by state laws against violent crime.

    All other federal crimes beyond these three are based on tortured legal reasoning designed to do an end run around the Tenth Amendment. They're justified under the "necessary and proper" clause or the commerce clause. They are redundant and largely function to greatly expand federal intervention into each and every American community. Beyond piracy, the entire federal apparatus for criminal prosecutions ought to be abolished. But the federal death penalty is a good place to start.


    https://mises.org/wire/abolish-federal-death-penalty
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3)



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  3. #2
    I have mixed feelings when it comes to the death penalty. On one hand, I don't trust the government to execute the right people. On the other hand, convicted pedophiles who we know without a shadow of a doubt are pedophiles should be put to death.
    "Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."

    Calvin Coolidge

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Globalist View Post
    I have mixed feelings when it comes to the death penalty. On one hand, I don't trust the government to execute the right people. On the other hand, convicted pedophiles who we know without a shadow of a doubt are pedophiles should be put to death.

    Per the article, do you believe the State or the Fed should be in that area?
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3)

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Per the article, do you believe the State or the Fed should be in that area?
    What do you believe?

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    What do you believe?
    Though I do not support the death penalty, worse case scenario it should be up to the States - NOT the FED.

    And you?
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3)

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Though I do not support the death penalty, worse case scenario it should be up to the States - NOT the FED.

    And you?
    LOL I just got -Rep and a facepalm from @Stratovarious

    So the FED should handle it, not the States. Huh. Am I on the right forum?
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3)

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    LOL I just got -Rep and a facepalm from @Stratovarious

    So the FED should handle it, not the States. Huh. Am I on the right forum?
    FO, Go cut holes in fences, and why again is it that you keep your doors locked /

    You negd me , you did it before , and you keep doing it, I never neg anyone first , you do it constantly, fo.

  9. #8
    The death penalty is required for some crimes.

    The debate should be about the standard of proof required.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Though I do not support the death penalty, worse case scenario it should be up to the States - NOT the FED.

    And you?
    Treason is a federal crime that requires the death penalty.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #10
    The death penalty has not been shown to be an effective deterrent to crime. And if you make a mistake, you cannot correct killing somebody. Many people on Death Row have later been exonerated.

    "Thou shalt not kill".
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The quality seems to have dropped significantly since I came here, I guess you get what you pay for.
    "There is always a tweet. That has become accepted fact in the Trump presidency: For every pronouncement the President makes, there is at least one tweet from his past that directly contradicts his current view." -CNN

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    The death penalty has not been shown to be an effective deterrent to crime. And if you make a mistake, you cannot correct killing somebody. Many people on Death Row have later been exonerated.
    That's why the standard of proof needs to be changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    "Thou shalt not kill".
    The correct translation is "Thou shalt not murder", there is also a specific command to kill murderers.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post

    The correct translation is "Thou shalt not murder", there is also a specific command to kill murderers.
    There is also a rule that kids who misbehave should be stoned. Do people still follow that one? Or "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"?

    That's why the standard of proof needs to be changed.
    How would you change the standard of proof?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The quality seems to have dropped significantly since I came here, I guess you get what you pay for.
    "There is always a tweet. That has become accepted fact in the Trump presidency: For every pronouncement the President makes, there is at least one tweet from his past that directly contradicts his current view." -CNN

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    There is also a rule that kids who misbehave should be stoned. Do people still follow that one? Or "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"?
    Not everything Moses said came from GOD, Christ made that clear about divorce.
    GOD gave the command to kill murderers to Noah.



    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    How would you change the standard of proof?
    Proof must be absolute and unquestionable.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Not everything Moses said came from GOD, Christ made that clear about divorce.
    GOD gave the command to kill murderers to Noah.

    Proof must be absolute and unquestionable.
    Since there is no such thing, I guess no death penalty.

    Did the 10 Commandments come from God? Or were those just suggestions Moses came up with? Link to that Noah thing?

    "Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord".

    "Put your sword back in its place- for those who live by the sword shall die by the sword."

    "Turn the other cheek".

    (noting that the Ten Commandments were written after Noah and "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" was by Jesus- way after both of them).

    "Turn the other cheek" was to replace "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth".
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 08-14-2019 at 08:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The quality seems to have dropped significantly since I came here, I guess you get what you pay for.
    "There is always a tweet. That has become accepted fact in the Trump presidency: For every pronouncement the President makes, there is at least one tweet from his past that directly contradicts his current view." -CNN

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  17. #15
    How many people a yr are the feds killing ?
    Do something Danke

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Since there is no such thing, I guess no death penalty.
    Yes there is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Did the 10 Commandments come from God? Or were those just suggestions Moses came up with?
    Those were from GOD

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Link to that Noah thing?
    It's in Genesis, read the bible for yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    "Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord".
    Justice isn't vengeance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    "Put your sword back in its place- for those who live by the sword shall die by the sword."
    Administering justice isn't living by the sword and he also told them to get swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    "Turn the other cheek".
    When slapped, that's not the same as murder.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  20. #17
    Those were from GOD
    So killing is a sin. If the government kills, do they commit a sin? Would that violate the Ten Commandments? The Old Testament was mostly about vengence while the New Testament is more about forgiveness.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The quality seems to have dropped significantly since I came here, I guess you get what you pay for.
    "There is always a tweet. That has become accepted fact in the Trump presidency: For every pronouncement the President makes, there is at least one tweet from his past that directly contradicts his current view." -CNN

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  21. #18
    But let's skip arguing about the Bible. What should the basis be for selecting the punishment for a crime? To make the victim as whole as possible? That is the goal of say a thief or somebody damages something- pay for the damage to the person harmed. You stole my car, give me money to buy a new one. If a person is dead, does killing somebody else make the person or his/ her family whole again? No. That is not possible. Dead is dead and can't be fixed. Is the purpose to prevent the person from committing the crime again? Killing them certainly does that. They can't do anything after that. But so does locking them up for the rest of their lives. Is it to act as a deterrent to others who may consider similar activities? There is little evidence suggesting that the death penalty deters serious crime. So what is the real purpose of the death penalty?

    https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...321-story.html

    Does murder rate go up without the death penalty?

    <snip>

    "What we see is that as murder rates go up in the United States, they go up in both states that have the death penalty and states that don't," he said. "And when they drop, the nationwide trends are also about the same. The anecdotal evidence is that there is no relationship."
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 08-14-2019 at 08:20 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The quality seems to have dropped significantly since I came here, I guess you get what you pay for.
    "There is always a tweet. That has become accepted fact in the Trump presidency: For every pronouncement the President makes, there is at least one tweet from his past that directly contradicts his current view." -CNN

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    But let's skip arguing about the Bible. What should the basis be for selecting the punishment for a crime? To make the victim as whole as possible? That is the goal of say a thief or somebody damages something- pay for the damage to the person harmed. You stole my car, give me money to buy a new one. If a person is dead, does killing somebody else make the person or his/ her family whole again? No. That is not possible. Dead is dead and can't be fixed. Is the purpose to prevent the person from committing the crime again? Killing them certainly does that. They can't do anything after that. But so does locking them up for the rest of their lives. Is it to act as a deterrent to others who may consider similar activities? There is little evidence suggesting that the death penalty deters serious crime. So what is the real purpose of the death penalty?
    Restitution and deterrence.
    For severe enough crimes the purpose should be to cull them from the populace without costing the decent citizens the price of supporting them for life if there is no doubt.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    So killing is a sin. If the government kills, do they commit a sin? Would that violate the Ten Commandments? The Old Testament was mostly about vengence while the New Testament is more about forgiveness.
    The correct translation is "Thou shalt not MURDER", killing murderers in obedience to GOD is not murder.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Restitution and deterrence.
    For severe enough crimes the purpose should be to cull them from the populace without costing the decent citizens the price of supporting them for life if there is no doubt.
    How is killing somebody restitution? How does that compensate the victim's family? It doesn't. Studies show no difference in murder rate trends in states with or without the death penalty so deterrence is not a factor. In fact, death penalty state have slightly higher murder rates.

    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 08-14-2019 at 08:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The quality seems to have dropped significantly since I came here, I guess you get what you pay for.
    "There is always a tweet. That has become accepted fact in the Trump presidency: For every pronouncement the President makes, there is at least one tweet from his past that directly contradicts his current view." -CNN

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    How is killing somebody restitution? How does that compensate the victim's family? It doesn't. Studies show no difference in murder rate trends in states with or without the death penalty so deterrence is not a factor.
    Read the rest of what I wrote, that wasn't the only purpose I gave.

    Society must be protected and it shouldn't have to pay to feed and house murderers when there is no doubt.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Read the rest of what I wrote, that wasn't the only purpose I gave.

    Society must be protected and it shouldn't have to pay to feed and house murderers when there is no doubt.
    Lock them up or kill them- society is protected. So what about the second part? The financial costs to society?

    With all the mandatory hearings and appeals to assure the "absolute proof" you said you wanted it actually cost more to issue the death penalty than to lock them up for life (so your financial argument is a failure as well).

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyph.../#1d1c6e8f664b

    Considering The Death Penalty: Your Tax Dollars At Work

    <snip>

    "It's 10 times more expensive to kill them than to keep them alive,"says Donald McCartin, known as The Hanging Judge of Orange County. McCartin knows a little bit about executions: he has sent nine men to death row.

    McCartin isn't talking about the comparisons between the cost of the actual execution and the cost of keeping an inmate in prison: those aren't apples to apples comparisons.

    It's true that the actual execution costs taxpayers fairly little: while most states remain mum on the cost of lethal injections because of privacy concerns from pharmaceutical companies, it's estimated that the drugs run about $100 (the Texas Department of Criminal Justice put the cost of their drug cocktails at $83 in 2011). However, the outside costs associated with the death penalty are disproportionately higher.

    To begin with, capital cases (those where the death penalty is a potential punishment) are more expensive and take much more time to resolve than non-capital cases. According to a study by the Kansas Judicial Council (downloads as a pdf), defending a death penalty case costs about four times as much as defending a case where the death penalty is not considered. In terms of costs, a report of the Washington State Bar Association found that death penalty cases are estimated to generate roughly $470,000 in additional costs to the prosecution and defense versus a similar case without the death penalty; that doesn't take into account the cost of court personnel. Even when a trial wasn't necessary (because of a guilty plea), those cases where the death penalty was sought still cost about twice as much as those where death was not sought. Citing Richard C. Dieter of the non-partisan Death Penalty Information Center, Fox News has reported that studies have "uniformly and conservatively shown that a death-penalty trial costs $1 million more than one in which prosecutors seek life without parole."

    And let's not forget about appeals: in Idaho, the State Appellate Public Defenders office spent about 44 times more time on a typical death penalty appeal than on a life sentence appeal (downloads as a pdf): almost 8,000 hours per capital defendant compared to about 180 hours per non-death penalty defendant. New York state projected that the death penalty costs the state $1.8 million per case just through trial and initial appeal.

    It costs more to house death penalty prisoners, as well. In Kansas, housing prisoners on death row costs more than twice as much per year ($49,380) as for prisoners in the general population ($24,690). In California, incarceration costs for death penalty prisoners totaled more than $1 billion from 1978 to 2011 (total costs outside of incarceration were another $3 billion). By the numbers, the annual cost of the death penalty in the state of California is $137 million compared to the cost of lifetime incarceration of $11.5 million.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 08-14-2019 at 08:35 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The quality seems to have dropped significantly since I came here, I guess you get what you pay for.
    "There is always a tweet. That has become accepted fact in the Trump presidency: For every pronouncement the President makes, there is at least one tweet from his past that directly contradicts his current view." -CNN

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Lock them up or kill them- society is protected. So what about the second part? The financial costs to society?

    With all the mandatory hearings and appeals to assure the "absolute proof" you said you wanted it actually cost more to issue the death penalty than to lock them up for life (so your financial argument is a failure as well).

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyph.../#1d1c6e8f664b
    No doubt doesn't necessarily have to cost money just because our current system is fouled up.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    No doubt doesn't necessarily have to cost money just because our current system is fouled up.
    How would you achieve "absolute proof" without our current system? What would you change? Cutting back on appeals lowers costs but increases the risk of killing somebody who didn't do the crime. The proof is less absolute and more errors possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The quality seems to have dropped significantly since I came here, I guess you get what you pay for.
    "There is always a tweet. That has become accepted fact in the Trump presidency: For every pronouncement the President makes, there is at least one tweet from his past that directly contradicts his current view." -CNN

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    How would you achieve "absolute proof" without our current system? What would you change? Cutting back on appeals lowers costs but increases the risk of killing somebody who didn't do the crime. The proof is less absolute and more errors possible.
    Proof is what the prosecution brings to the trial, they either have absolute proof or they don't.
    If they don't they should be replaced if they try for the death penalty and cost the taxpayers money for appeals.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Proof is what the prosecution brings to the trial, they either have absolute proof or they don't.
    If they don't they should be replaced if they try for the death penalty and cost the taxpayers money for appeals.
    So no appeals? That kills your "absolute proof" demand. If you want fewer trials, the burden of proof is lower and the possibility of errors happening higher. Life in prison costs much less money and society is protected. There is no restitution or deterrence with the death penalty. There is also no way to correct any mistakes once the person is killed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The quality seems to have dropped significantly since I came here, I guess you get what you pay for.
    "There is always a tweet. That has become accepted fact in the Trump presidency: For every pronouncement the President makes, there is at least one tweet from his past that directly contradicts his current view." -CNN

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    So no appeals? That kills your "absolute proof" demand.
    I didn't say no appeals.
    I said there would be appeals if the proof wasn't absolute.
    If the proof was absolute there would be nothing to appeal.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Proof is what the prosecution brings to the trial, they either have absolute proof or they don't.
    If they don't they should be replaced if they try for the death penalty and cost the taxpayers money for appeals.
    Lol, it must be comforting to live in your imaginary universe. Did that pill stick in your throat on the way down?
    "The Patriarch"

    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    Now a days the future freedoms of ones posterity is less important than the freedom today to insert what one wants into ones posterior.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That is a lie.
    @Brian4Liberty, devil keeps spreading this lie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I will report violations of the forum rules to the forum staff when they are egregious enough.

    You should remember that.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I didn't say no appeals.
    I said there would be appeals if the proof wasn't absolute.
    If the proof was absolute there would be nothing to appeal.
    That is what the appeals process is for. To verify that the proof was absolute. Many people on death row were later found to have not committed the crime they were sentenced for- even after appeals.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The quality seems to have dropped significantly since I came here, I guess you get what you pay for.
    "There is always a tweet. That has become accepted fact in the Trump presidency: For every pronouncement the President makes, there is at least one tweet from his past that directly contradicts his current view." -CNN

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

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