Stop! You Need a License To Do that Job!

[PAF]

[Anti Globalist]

A license is nothing more than something that the government uses to sell your rights back to you.

[PAF]

A license is nothing more than something that the government uses to sell your rights back to you.

Agreed But it also goes deeper than that, as the video illustrates, a way for the big guys to eliminate competition with the smaller guys.

[Origanalist]

Black market FTW. Screw em, I get by just fine without their licences.

[Working Poor]

With license health care has been ruined for all.

[Schifference]

Do liberals support these licenses? Should you need a license or visa to cross the border into another country?

[Superfluous Man]

Do liberals support these licenses? Should you need a license or visa to cross the border into another country?

If you mean liberal in the modern big-government sense, then yes, they absolutely do support that.

Ron Paul doesn't though.

[Schifference]

If you mean liberal in the modern big-government sense, then yes, they absolutely do support that.

Ron Paul doesn't though.

If liberals support mandatory licenses why are they for open borders?

[Superfluous Man]

If liberals support mandatory licenses why are they for open borders?

Liberals in the modern big-government sense aren't. Haven't you seen all the quotes Trump has given from liberals espousing his own view on that?

And that's not even counting all the left-of-center big-government Republicans we really should be counting.

[PAF]

If liberals support mandatory licenses why are they for open borders?

Open borders? Closed borders? It is all an excuse to take rightful property, mandate "papers please", and implement police state apparatus. It is a way to Grow the FED.

It's not left versus right, it's liberty versus tyranny.

"I voted numerous times when I was a senator to spend money to build a barrier to try to prevent illegal immigrants from coming in," Clinton told an audience at a campaign stop Nov. 9, 2015. "And I do think you have to control your borders."

Clinton voted for the Secure Fence Act of 2006, which President George W. Bush signed after the measure cleared the Republican-held Congress. It authorized about 700 miles of fencing along certain stretches of land between the border of the United States and Mexico.

The act also authorized the use of more vehicle barriers, checkpoints and lighting to curb illegal immigration, and the use of advanced technology such as satellites and unmanned aerial vehicles.

Then-Sen. Clinton voted in favor of the act when it passed in the Senate by a vote of 80 to 19. (Notably, then-Sen. Barack Obama and New York Sen. Chuck Schumer voted for it, too.)

Originally, the act called on the Department of Homeland Security to install at least two layers of reinforced fencing along some stretches of the border.
https://www.politifact.com/punditfac...r-wall-mexico/

____


President Trump on Sunday quoted Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton supporting border security, pushing Democrats to relent in the standoff over spending on a border wall.

The president used the quotes to hammer home his message that “walls work.”

In a series of tweets, Mr. Trump quoted Mr. Obama in 2005 saying, “We simply cannot allow people to pour into the United States undetected, undocumented, unchecked.”

He quoted Mrs. Clinton in 2015 saying, “I voted, when I was a Senator, to build a barrier to try to prevent illegal immigrants from coming in.”
https://www.wnd.com/2019/01/trump-qu...n-border-wall/

[invisible]

If you mean liberal in the modern big-government sense, then yes, they absolutely do support that.

Ron Paul doesn't though.

I don't think you're correct in that. Ron Paul believes that anyone who wants to come here and work (which contributes to economic growth) should freely be able to do so, without giving them any of the benefits of actual citizenship. But that implies having at least enough documentation to be placed on the tax rolls (which requires a socialist security number and a green card), which is in effect, a "license" to work. I've never heard or read any statement from Ron Paul that he opposes people from other countries needing a green card to work here. And of course, that's a far cry from being subjected to the big government police state measures such as biometrics that trump is implementing.

[Superfluous Man]

I don't think you're correct in that.

I am. See especially the quote about passports in the "Implement Entry/Exit? Bad" section.

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/n...t-we-didnt-mak

[Superfluous Man]

But that implies having at least enough documentation to be placed on the tax rolls (which requires a socialist security number and a green card)

Ron Paul supports eliminating the income tax and replacing it with nothing. He also doesn't support requiring employers to enforce immigration laws, such as by requiring them to demand SSNs and Green Cards from their employees.

I've never heard or read any statement from Ron Paul that he opposes people from other countries needing a green card to work here.

He may support retaining laws that make it illegal to work here without a visa (but note that the quote from Schifference I was replying to only referred to crossing borders, and not working here). However, he also supports changes in the enforcement of that law that effectively make it impossible to enforce it. Without making employers help the government enforce it, and putting the burden of proof on the government, a ban on working without a visa becomes toothless.

[Schifference]

Open borders? Closed borders? It is all an excuse to take rightful property, mandate "papers please", and implement police state apparatus. It is a way to Grow the FED.

It's not left versus right, it's liberty versus tyranny.

Okay I agree. Explain how your utopia gets implemented in real life outside of thought concept.

[PAF]

Okay I agree. Explain how your utopia gets implemented in real life outside of thought concept.

Utopia does not exist. And if it was easy, everybody would do it.

Ron Paul has repeatedly stated the solution. Perhaps talking with friends, family, neighbors will be a start, such as I do. No, this will not happen overnight. But once private property is taken, "papers please" and police state apparatus is finally and fully implemented as intended, you can bet 10 to 1 it will never go away.

[asurfaholic]

I am a License holder. I respectfully disagree with the blanket condemnation of licensing requirements. In most cases, states allow homeowners to do their own work to their own homes. Nobody is stopping you from making basic repairs to your house. Yes, you may be “required” to pull a permit as a homeowner, but that in itself doesn’t disallow you from doing your own work.

In the case where someone wants to provide a service in a skilled trade as a for-profit business, i more or less feel that licensing is the only reasonable solution. The simple fact is that there are codes that are in place. Some are dumb, yes, but others ensure a safe system. In my case, electricians must have a strong working knowledge of code and at least 4 years of field experience to qualify for the lowest level of license. I had 10 + years when I applied for my license and started my business. I don’t think I would have been adequately prepared to run a successful business with only 4 years.

I have seen the work of people who think they can get by without a license. There are cases where these hack jobs have started fires or left dangerous electrical conditions where people have been killed. I’m not a fear monger. If you want to do your own stuff, be willing to take your own risks, save yourself some money- be my guest. But these hack jobs should never be allowed to practice their filth where it exposes other people to dangerous inadequacies.

The state doesn’t enact licensing requirements to prevent competition. A barrier to entry into the licensing is only to ensure that only qualified people who agree to do work up to the local adopted code. Nobody prevented me from getting my license. It was hard work and lots of studying, but I was free to do everything and passed my license exam first time with a 89. In North Carolina, there are over 12,000 electrical license holders. I was one of less than 100 current to obtain my license at less than age 30. I have enjoyed a resounding success. The lack of competition can only be attributed to the fact that most people aren’t willing to work in skilled trades. There is even talk of making it easier to obtain a license. This is a bad idea. Dumbing down the requirements will not help the situation.

In short, I feel licensing is a necessity where there needs to be a standard of proficiency for people to practice their desired skills professionally.

[Superfluous Man]

I am a License holder. I respectfully disagree with the blanket condemnation of licensing requirements. In most cases, states allow homeowners to do their own work to their own homes. Nobody is stopping you from making basic repairs to your house. Yes, you may be “required” to pull a permit as a homeowner, but that in itself doesn’t disallow you from doing your own work.

In the case where someone wants to provide a service in a skilled trade as a for-profit business, i more or less feel that licensing is the only reasonable solution. The simple fact is that there are codes that are in place. Some are dumb, yes, but others ensure a safe system. In my case, electricians must have a strong working knowledge of code and at least 4 years of field experience to qualify for the lowest level of license. I had 10 + years when I applied for my license and started my business. I don’t think I would have been adequately prepared to run a successful business with only 4 years.

I have seen the work of people who think they can get by without a license. There are cases where these hack jobs have started fires or left dangerous electrical conditions where people have been killed. I’m not a fear monger. If you want to do your own stuff, be willing to take your own risks, save yourself some money- be my guest. But these hack jobs should never be allowed to practice their filth where it exposes other people to dangerous inadequacies.

The state doesn’t enact licensing requirements to prevent competition. A barrier to entry into the licensing is only to ensure that only qualified people who agree to do work up to the local adopted code. Nobody prevented me from getting my license. It was hard work and lots of studying, but I was free to do everything and passed my license exam first time with a 89. In North Carolina, there are over 12,000 electrical license holders. I was one of less than 100 current to obtain my license at less than age 30. I have enjoyed a resounding success. The lack of competition can only be attributed to the fact that most people aren’t willing to work in skilled trades. There is even talk of making it easier to obtain a license. This is a bad idea. Dumbing down the requirements will not help the situation.

In short, I feel licensing is a necessity where there needs to be a standard of proficiency for people to practice their desired skills professionally.

Fine. So let private organizations handle that in a free market where consumers can decide which private licenses they want to trust.

Government should not be involved in any way whatsoever.

[Ender]

Licenses were originally for things that would otherwise be illegal.

Most mandatory licenses are unconstitutional- such as the drivers license.

[asurfaholic]

A “private” board is nothing without authority. A state board is regulated by laws and ordinances. For a private board to have any relevance, it would also need to follow state laws and requirements, meaning there would be no difference whatsoever. I’d rather the board not be a private enterprise- that certainly could open the door for preventing competition or unfair practices.

You speak of government like it is an unspeakable evil. I think the current system where each state enacts its own laws and regulations on licensing is exactly what the founders would have intended. I’d agree wholeheartedly if this was the federal government overseeing each state, but it’s not. I have no problem with how the system is set up now.

[Superfluous Man]

A “private” board is nothing without authority. A state board is regulated by laws and ordinances. For a private board to have any relevance, it would also need to follow state laws and requirements, meaning there would be no difference whatsoever. I’d rather the board not be a private enterprise- that certainly could open the door for preventing competition or unfair practices.

You speak of government like it is an unspeakable evil. I think the current system where each state enacts its own laws and regulations on licensing is exactly what the founders would have intended. I’d agree wholeheartedly if this was the federal government overseeing each state, but it’s not. I have no problem with how the system is set up now.

When Jewish people look for foods in grocery stores that are labeled as kosher, and bear the stamp of an organization they trust to verify that they are, do you think that the lack of a government looking over that organization's shoulder renders it irrelevant? They don't need governmental authority. Authority naturally resides in the consumers themselves whose money the product providers need.

There are countless other examples of private regulatory boards that work effectively in the marketplace.

I don't know where you got the idea that the founders would be ok with states licensing occupations like they do now. But I highly doubt that.

There's a lot of irony in your saying that private regulatory boards could open the door for preventing competition and unfair practices. The *entire point* of having government license occupations is to do that. That is why government licensing exists.

[devil21]

Licenses were originally for things that would otherwise be illegal.

Most mandatory licenses are unconstitutional- such as the drivers license.

The legal definition of a "license" is a temporary permit to do something that is otherwise unlawful. What does that mean? It means anything that "requires" a license, such as the constitutional right to travel or perform a job/service, is unlawful. Why would traveling or working be unlawful? Because something considered property has no inherent rights to do anything, since it is merely a thing. Allowing property to do something like travel or work therefore requires a temporary permit to do something that would otherwise be against natural law and thus unlawful. Though the law dictionaries now use the term illegal, the correct term is unlawful. They are not the same term and do not mean the same. Everyone requests the licenses and voluntarily turns themselves into things. No one can force you into a contract...did you sign the license? It's a contract.

Overall, it means that people are considered property/things under the maritime legal system being operated, usually by people's own admission. This closely ties into how the ALL CAPS NAME legal fiction on the licenses, that statutes and regulations are written for, are things, not flesh and blood. When you identify as the NAME you are identifying yourself as a thing, property, without any natural rights and are then subject to the legal rules governing the administration of property, including being warehoused (aka jail) like property often is. For example, when a prosecutor addresses you by the ALL CAPS NAME in court (which they always do, usually under the guise of whether you "appeared") , the prosecutor is asking you to identify as a thing and thus subject to the court's jurisdiction to administer things, property. It's all interconnected.

[fisharmor]

When Jewish people look for foods in grocery stores that are labeled as kosher, and bear the stamp of an organization they trust to verify that they are, do you think that the lack of a government looking over that organization's shoulder renders it irrelevant? They don't need governmental authority. Authority naturally resides in the consumers themselves whose money the product providers need.

There used to be *two* labels for Kosher foods - one marked K and another that is a U with an O around it.
Just the other day I was pointing this out to my daughter, and started pulling things out of the cupboard to try to find the K label, and I couldn't find one.
I've known for about 15 years that the organization responsible for certifying the "K" were less restrictive than the O-U people.
Well it turns out that not only did the market invent these - and let's be honest, how many people are shopping Kosher to begin with (hint: it's a tiny fraction of the people who live in a building) - not only did the market come up with these, but the market favored the one that worked better, and apparently the other one became disused.

This is a great example because it shows exactly how state licensing DOESN'T work. There is no way for a competing license or regulatory requirement to take over, without one of two things: virtually impossible political change within the system (impossible largely because folks like asurfaholic will defend the existing system), or, on the other hand, violent revolution. Those are your only two options for change-out of the existing system.

But that is probably the less insidious problem with state licensing. Let's take building codes for example, since that's the defense here.

For every person making janky crap, there is another person who would completely overengineer it, and would frankly be happier with it being overengineered.

If I want to make a retaining wall in my county taller than two feet, I either have to go through an engineering review - which stands a good chance of outright rejecting anything that hasn't been approved before - or I have to hire a company to do it and the first thing they are going to do is shoot for the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM REQUIREMENT.

If I know a guy who knows a guy who will deliver 6' x 6' x 6' boulders to my property for a case of beer, there is no way I can get that to be a legal retaining wall, not without spending more money than it would take to get the crappy pressure-treated eyesore built professionally.

So the first point is, building codes and licensing based on those codes level-sets the playing field so that all construction becomes a-little-better-than-crap grade. It doesn't guarantee high quality as much as it guarantees low quality.

The second point is, building codes and licensing based on those codes guarantees that alternatives are unavailable. If you build things, go look for Autoclaved Aerated Concrete. You pretty much have to live in Europe to know this stuff even exists - but it's been around for decades, and it's pretty much completely unused in the US. This is probably because every building that uses it has to go through an engineering review. It's not written into the codes, so it has an artificially high price involved. As a result, nobody has a market incentive to use it here, despite the fact that a crew of four can "frame-in" a 2-story house in two days with this stuff, and that includes insulation because it's insulative material, and it's also impervious to rot, water doesn't hurt it, etc, etc. I'm actually quite a bit pissed that I don't have this as an option for a home addition and licensing is the direct reason for it.

[brushfire]

[devil21]

I am a License holder. I respectfully disagree with the blanket condemnation of licensing requirements. In most cases, states allow homeowners to do their own work to their own homes. Nobody is stopping you from making basic repairs to your house. Yes, you may be “required” to pull a permit as a homeowner, but that in itself doesn’t disallow you from doing your own work.

In the case where someone wants to provide a service in a skilled trade as a for-profit business, i more or less feel that licensing is the only reasonable solution. The simple fact is that there are codes that are in place. Some are dumb, yes, but others ensure a safe system. In my case, electricians must have a strong working knowledge of code and at least 4 years of field experience to qualify for the lowest level of license. I had 10 + years when I applied for my license and started my business. I don’t think I would have been adequately prepared to run a successful business with only 4 years.

I have seen the work of people who think they can get by without a license. There are cases where these hack jobs have started fires or left dangerous electrical conditions where people have been killed. I’m not a fear monger. If you want to do your own stuff, be willing to take your own risks, save yourself some money- be my guest. But these hack jobs should never be allowed to practice their filth where it exposes other people to dangerous inadequacies.

The state doesn’t enact licensing requirements to prevent competition. A barrier to entry into the licensing is only to ensure that only qualified people who agree to do work up to the local adopted code. Nobody prevented me from getting my license. It was hard work and lots of studying, but I was free to do everything and passed my license exam first time with a 89. In North Carolina, there are over 12,000 electrical license holders. I was one of less than 100 current to obtain my license at less than age 30. I have enjoyed a resounding success. The lack of competition can only be attributed to the fact that most people aren’t willing to work in skilled trades. There is even talk of making it easier to obtain a license. This is a bad idea. Dumbing down the requirements will not help the situation.

In short, I feel licensing is a necessity where there needs to be a standard of proficiency for people to practice their desired skills professionally.

If you didn't have the electrician's license, would your work be subpar? Is it the license that makes you a good electrician or is it you that makes you a good electrician? I'm sure there are plenty of licensed contractors that do $#@!ty work also, so the existence of a license only proves that someone has passed a test, paid a tax, and voluntarily subjected themselves to the jurisdiction of the legal system. It does not, in and of itself, prove that someone is not lazy or cheap. It is also a method to "reward" good system followers and attempt to punish those who do not follow the system.

[PAF]

If you didn't have the electrician's license, would your work be subpar? Is it the license that makes you a good electrician or is it you that makes you a good electrician? I'm sure there are plenty of licensed contractors that do $#@!ty work also, so the existence of a license only proves that someone has passed a test, paid a tax, and voluntarily subjected themselves to the jurisdiction of the legal system. It does not, in and of itself, prove that someone is not lazy or cheap. It is also a method to "reward" good system followers and attempt to punish those who do not follow the system.

I have actually had to clean up jobs after the "inspector" left. He knew the contractor had a license so basically walked through without really checking things out. So, both failed to do a quality job.

[kahless]

Our local Facebook community page is with rife with posters crucifying people if they do not have a license to do work for things as simply as mowing someones lawn. They do this like a witch hunt and act like these people committed mass murder, even if the homeowners they are doing work for say they already know they are unlicensed and do not have a problem with it.

The busy bodies and authoritarians seem to be growing with every passing year especially with the younger generation. I noticed the behavior is particularly worse with women than men.

[devil21]

Our local Facebook community page is with rife with posters crucifying people if they do not have a license to do work for things as simply as mowing someones lawn. They do this like a witch hunt and act like these people committed mass murder, even if the homeowners they are doing work for say they already know they are unlicensed and do not have a problem with it.

The busy bodies and authoritarians seem to be growing with every passing year especially with the younger generation. I noticed the behavior is particularly worse with women than men.

The promise of safety, I assume, accounts for the female aspect. Background checks, licenses, etc implies "safe". "Stranger Danger" propaganda for the newly adult crowd.

[kpitcher]

I grew up around the trades and a skilled worker is just that, skilled and worth a good wage. However, while a licensing process is in theory a good idea, it's mostly just a fee to the state.

The law says only licensed plumbers may advertise they are a plumber. It is up to the local prosecutor to bring charges up if someone is actually advertising they are one but are not licensed. While I'm sure this would happen for lawyers or doctors, it's ignored otherwise. Yellow Pages used to require license info to be listed but who even uses those anymore? Social media? You can say you're a plumber in a social media group of thousands and a local prosecutor had the opinion that is not advertising so that would not break the non licensed advertising law.

If there are laws that prosecutors won't go after for being broken it appears those are laws that should be removed.

Also, currently it would be up to the homeowner to go after a licensed person who did a crap job that they paid for. As such it could be replaced by regular contracts.

[Schifference]

When a licensing agency sets mandates and tests the proficiency of an applicant and then issues a license and then a permit to perform work and then inspects and passes the work, they should become liable for faulty workmanship. The agency set the standards and monitored the work. The agency should own the faulty issues or else they are useless.

[devil21]

When a licensing agency sets mandates and tests the proficiency of an applicant and then issues a license and then a permit to perform work and then inspects and passes the work, they should become liable for faulty workmanship. The agency set the standards and monitored the work. The agency should own the faulty issues or else they are useless.

But like most (all?) government-like agencies these days, conflicts of interest between the inspectors/enforcers and favored contractors are ignored. The very system of licensing and permitting sets itself up for fraud from the start. Don't get me started on the local zoning commission, for example.