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Thread: Immigration and Freedom

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    I attempted to not feed the trolls, however, since "this is an invasion (war)", I feel that I must respond to one who advocates killing and murdering without due process.
    "I remember I got into trouble with Libertarians because I said there may well be a time when immigration is like an invasion and we have to treat it differently." - Ron Paul on Meet The Press 23 Dec 2007



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    I support the approach of the man this website is named after.

    There was a time when we would have people come here from time to time calling for tougher immigration restrictions and criticizing Ron Paul for being for more open borders than any of the other Republican candidates and the regulars here would rally to the defense of his libertarian positions. Some of us are still doing that.
    How libertarian is the California Communist UniParty government that is in place because of one reason: invaders?



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Or for you to call others leftist, communists, SJWs, socialists.

    How about if EVERYONE stops calling names & actually has real & intelligent dialog about things. We do NOT have to always agree- BUT we can actually learn from one another when showing a little respect.
    I do try.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    The Constitution does not delegate to the federal government power over immigration
    WRONG:


    https://www.constitution.org/cmt/law_of_nations.htm

    The meaning of "Offenses against the Law of Nations"

    Art. I Sec. 8 Cl. 10 of the Constitution for the United States delegates the power to Congress to "define and punish ... Offenses against the Law of Nations". It is important to understand what is and is not included in the term of art "law of nations", and not confuse it with "international law". They are not the same thing. The phrase "law of nations" is a direct translation of the Latin jus gentium, which means the underlying principles of right and justice among nations, and during the founding era was not considered the same as the "laws", that is, the body of treaties and conventions between nations, the jus inter gentes, which, combined with jus gentium, comprise the field of "international law". The distinction goes back to ancient Roman Law.

    Briefly, the Law of Nations at the point of ratification in 1788 included the following general elements, taken from Blackstone's Commentaries, and prosecution of those who might violate them:

    (1) No attacks on foreign nations, their citizens, or shipping, without either a declaration of war or letters of marque and reprisal.

    (2) Honoring of the flag of truce, peace treaties, and boundary treaties. No entry across national borders without permission of national authorities.

    (3) Protection of wrecked ships, their passengers and crew, and their cargo, from depredation by those who might find them.

    (4) Prosecution of piracy by whomever might be able to capture the pirates, even if those making the capture or their nations had not been victims.

    (5) Care and decent treatment of prisoners of war.

    (6) Protection of foreign embassies, ambassadors, and diplomats, and of foreign ships and their passengers, crew, and cargo while in domestic waters or in port.

    (7) Honoring of extradition treaties for criminals who committed crimes in a nation with whom one has such a treaty who escape to one's territory or are found on the high seas established with all nations in 1788,

    (8) Prohibition of enslavement of foreign nationals and international trading in slaves.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  7. #35
    Ron Paul's position from 2007:

    The talk must stop. We must secure our borders now. A nation without secure borders is no nation at all. It makes no sense to fight terrorists abroad when our own front door is left unlocked. This is my six point plan:



    • Physically secure our borders and coastlines. We must do whatever it takes to control entry into our country before we undertake complicated immigration reform proposals.
    • Enforce visa rules. Immigration officials must track visa holders and deport anyone who overstays their visa or otherwise violates U.S. law. This is especially important when we recall that a number of 9/11 terrorists had expired visas.
    • No amnesty. Estimates suggest that 10 to 20 million people are in our country illegally. That’s a lot of people to reward for breaking our laws.
    • No welfare for illegal aliens. Americans have welcomed immigrants who seek opportunity, work hard, and play by the rules. But taxpayers should not pay for illegal immigrants who use hospitals, clinics, schools, roads, and social services.
    • End birthright citizenship. As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be citizens, the incentive to enter the U.S. illegally will remain strong.
    • Pass true immigration reform. The current system is incoherent and unfair. But current reform proposals would allow up to 60 million more immigrants into our country, according to the Heritage Foundation. This is insanity. Legal immigrants from all countries should face the same rules and waiting periods.





    http://archive.is/XoV0h#selection-311.1-349.26




    We must do whatever it takes to control entry into our country


    Immigration officials must track visa holders and deport anyone who overstays their visa or otherwise violates U.S. law.

    No amnesty.

    End birthright citizenship

    current reform proposals would allow up to 60 million more immigrants into our country, according to the Heritage Foundation. This is insanity.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #36
    Immigration is fine, but we already take in 1,000,000 LEGAL immigrants per year.

    We probably have over 50,000,000 ILLEGALS in the country now. With those numbers, that's several states worth. Most are probably nice people, but also many are people with no loyalty to this country, who most send back their earnings to families abroad.

    The US has tons of people out of work, homeless that could use the jobs illegals are taking. This argument for "not enough workers" is ridiculous. Of course $15 minimum wage just makes this situation worse.
    Last edited by Son_of_Liberty90; 08-12-2019 at 02:43 PM.

  9. #37
    Lol. You guys do a really great job showing your integrity. Frothing at the mouth before anyone even replies to your post. Just straight up circle-jerking. That's embarrassing.

    But that sums up the purpose of this thread perfectly well - "You're wrong, and we're right." Ok, great. Let's get the secession going, it's become evident our lifestyles are wholly incompatible with one another. Best of luck to you.

    But, to actually add some discourse for anyone interested in reading -- Napolitano's article really doesn't hold up to scrutiny.



    Today, the potential victims of public indifference and government repression are Hispanics in America. Hispanics here without documentation are being demonized because of the politics of nativism. Nativism — we are exceptional; we are better people than they are; we were here first — is very dangerous and leads to ugly results.
    Wrong. No one's saying we're better than they are. We're saying they're not citizens of this country. They're not supposed to be here.

    The right to travel is a natural right, even though it was not until 1969 that the Supreme Court recognized it as such. The court protects natural rights by imposing a very high bar for the government to meet before it can interfere with them, absent due process.
    Really? The right to travel? And that right has absolutely no limitations? People can just stride right up into Area 51, or better yet, a nuclear warhead just because they have the right to travel. Good to know.

    Thus, when the government’s motivation for enacting immigration laws is to further genuine compelling foreign policy goals, the laws will be upheld. But when the government’s motivation is nativism or fear or hatred or favoritism, strict scrutiny will operate to defeat those laws.
    What??? Lmfao. Let me get this straight -- Napolitano stated our government only has the right to write U.S. immigration law when it has the explicit purpose of "strong-arming" (running) other countries' governments? Oh yeah. That's exactly what I want our government to do -- run other countries' governments. ...Write laws for the purpose of governing our own society? Nah, that's stupid.

    Shortly after the first federal immigration statute was enacted in the 1880s — the Chinese Exclusion Act — the Supreme Court ruled that aliens, whether here legally or illegally, are persons, and the Constitution protects all persons from governmental deprivation of life, liberty and property without due process.
    They do get due process. At some point, they're going to do something that requires them to provide valid ID/proof of citizenship. You're not a citizen? You don't belong here.

    ( The Fourteenth Amendment requires this, and its language is inclusive: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States…” Though written to protect former slaves, its language is not limited to them.)

    Some well-intended folks have argued that the language “all persons” doesn’t really mean “all” because it is modified by “and subject to the jurisdiction (of the United States).” But that language refers to the offspring of mothers who, though here, are still subject to a foreign government — like foreign diplomats, agents or military. It does not refer to those fleeing foreign governments. It does not — and cannot — impose an intent requirement upon infants.
    Oh. How nice of Napolitano to arbitrarily (on the basis of personal whim, rather than any reason or system) decide what the Constitution means. Sorry. The word is AND. Meaning both.
    -Really, what is he arguing here? That anyone can just waltz across the border and then declare themselves a citizen of the United States? How exactly does that work?

    When the history of our times is written, it might relate that the majority repressed the rights of minorities by demonizing them using appeals to group prejudice — by blaming entire ethnic groups for the criminal behavior of some few members of those groups.
    Wrong. I don't think I've seen arguments stating "We got these 3 gosh darned Mexicans killing all our gosh darned white women, we gots'ta THROW EM ALL OUT!!
    -I'm pretty sure that the obvious has been stated - that they have a different culture, and the left is all too happy to invite them in so that they can obtain an artificial 51% majority and tyrannize the 49%. ...So, the left is more than welcome to invite endless foreigners and fundamentally transform America, but I have 0 recourse to maintain my current way of life? Ok.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by 106459 View Post
    No one's saying we're better than they are. We're saying they're not citizens of this country. They're not supposed to be here.
    This is nonsense and has never been the case in the history of the USA. Where did you get the idea that only US citizens are supposed to be here?

    Quote Originally Posted by 106459 View Post
    They do get due process. At some point, they're going to do something that requires them to provide valid ID/proof of citizenship. You're not a citizen? You don't belong here.
    That's not due process. If you support due process, then you do not support laws that require us to have papers that we have to show in order to prove we have a right to be here.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Son_of_Liberty90 View Post
    Immigration is fine, but we already take in 1,000,000 LEGAL immigrants per year.
    You say that as if you think that's a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Son_of_Liberty90 View Post
    The US has tons of people out of work, homeless that could use the jobs illegals are taking.
    Anybody who would make this argument doesn't even begin to grasp the basic principles of this website. You might as join the crowd who thinks robots and self-checkout lanes cost us jobs.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 08-12-2019 at 02:55 PM.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    This is nonsense and has never been the case in the history of the USA. Where did you get the idea that only US citizens are supposed to be here?
    It has always been that We get to decide what foreigners get to come here and which ones get to stay, the fact that we were much more lenient about it in the past doesn't change anything.


    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    That's not due process. If you support due process, then you do not support laws that require us to have papers that we have to show in order to prove we have a right to be here.
    It is due process.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    You say that as if you think that's a lot.
    It's FAR too many.

    America is becoming a communist/socialist country because they aren't assimilating.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #42
    No one's saying we're better than they are. We're saying they're not citizens of this country. They're not supposed to be here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    This is nonsense and has never been the case in the history of the USA. Where did you get the idea that only US citizens are supposed to be here?
    Oh, cute. Nice cherry-pick of two points to respond to.

    Great word-play on "only US citizens are supposed to be here". Yeah, great. Allow legal residents, tourists, etc. Why don't you tell me where you got the idea that illegal & undocumented immigrants have ever been welcomed anywhere?
    -But, yeah, I suppose the colonization of the America's in the 1600's is more up your alley. Whoever can kill more of the other is then welcome, yes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    That's not due process. If you support due process, then you do not support laws that require us to have papers that we have to show in order to prove we have a right to be here.

    Ah, yes, the "I amst more Libertarian than thou". Sorry mate, but living in a coherent society means there isn't anarchy. You need papers so that we don't have serial killers hopping from state to state. And, call me crazy, but currently we have government assistance programs handing money to people. It would make sense to check if they're a taxpayer who would be an eligible member for that, wouldn't it? Not in your world, I guess.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by 106459 View Post
    Oh, cute. Nice cherry-pick of two points to respond to.

    Great word-play on "only US citizens are supposed to be here". Yeah, great. Allow legal residents, tourists, etc. Why don't you tell me where you got the idea that illegal & undocumented immigrants have ever been welcomed anywhere?
    -But, yeah, I suppose the colonization of the America's in the 1600's is more up your alley. Whoever can kill more of the other is then welcome, yes?
    Originally Posted by Anti Federalist

    From the very beginning, from before there was a United States, you were required to join a church, register your family name and everybody in your family and apply for "freeman" papers, when arriving the colonies.


    The dates in May of 1634 and 1636 are chosen
    because of some features of the migration process. Most passenger ships
    did not leave England until spring, because of the bad weather in the
    North Atlantic earlier in the year. Thus it would be impossible for a
    passenger on one of these ships to have joined a church and then applied
    for freemanship in time for the annual General Court of Election, which
    in 1634 took place on 14 May and in 1636 on 25 May. Thus it is
    assumed that all the men who appeared in the list of freemen on 25 May
    1636 must have arrived in New England no later than 1635.


    To say that there was in early America no idea of who was coming or going, no records kept and no control over who showed up, is just not historically accurate.
    ...
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #44

  18. #45

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by 106459 View Post
    -But, yeah, I suppose the colonization of the America's in the 1600's is more up your alley. Whoever can kill more of the other is then welcome, yes?
    That's what the enemy has up it's sleeve, wholesale subjugation and genocide of the existing population (that's you and me), through sheer numbers and damnable pity and pathos.

    That is the victory they are working toward, in this Fifth Gen warfare attack we are under.

  20. #47

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Anybody who would make this argument doesn't even begin to grasp the basic principles of this website. You might as join the crowd who thinks robots and self-checkout lanes cost us jobs.
    Jobs and crime and disease, while important factors to consider during this invasion, they are secondary to me.

    Primary to me is the heart and soul of the nation.

    Are we going to remain a a nation founded on the ideals of Western Enlightenment philosophy: limited government, individual liberty, property rights, rule of law and representative republicanism?

    Or just become a second world socialist $#@!hole, like a hundred other nations out there, with no common heritage, values, beliefs and every downtown looking like New Kinshasa or New Tegucigalpa?



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by 106459 View Post
    Lol. You guys do a really great job showing your integrity. Frothing at the mouth before anyone even replies to your post. Just straight up circle-jerking. That's embarrassing.
    ...
    I believe you have identified a problem that is currently taking place between two small groups of people on the forum. Some on both sides are guilty.

    It goes something like this:

    - “I am going to start a thread, this will really piss off those guys.”
    - “Hmm, they didn’t see it yet, let me bump it and say ‘in b4 those other trolls’”.
    - “OK, let me quote them from another thread or mention them by name so that they will see it. They’ll blow a fuse, this will be great!”
    Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    That's what the enemy has up it's sleeve, wholesale subjugation and genocide of the existing population (that's you and me), through sheer numbers and damnable pity and pathos.

    That is the victory they are working toward, in this Fifth Gen warfare attack we are under.
    Yeah, it's certainly proving to be a winning gameplan. Just talk about their plights, and somehow we're now directly responsible for making everything better (because they can only ever be a victim, never their own saviors, don't you know?). Moral hazard, Samaritan effect, or any other consequences be damned.
    -What I don't understand is that this is supposed to be a limited government forum. But it seems people are willfully oblivious to the fact that people from other nations didn't grow up hearing the same ideals that we did. By whatever margin, 60/40, etc, they lean "left" and vote for 'more government to solve our problems'. That's a problem.
    -And, again, it seems like our open borders friends are just totally ok with the Democrat party taking over America. If there are 80 million Americans for something, 80 million Americans against something, 20 million indifferent, then they'll just import millions a year, until they have the numbers they need. ...How exactly is that legitimate?

    But, you really don't need to buy into the fifth gen warfare to see the problem with all this immigration, at all. I want to know where these open borders proponents live. Apparently, the 2010 US census said that America was 70% white. I went to a high school that was 27% white. Over 30% hispanic. In fact, my high school was a damn near multi-cultural paradise, apparently.

    Except it wasn't. You have blacks hanging out with blacks, hispanics with hispanics, whites with whites. Their own groups and cliques, you know. Turns out that race and shared culture is one way people identify with each other, don't you know. In any case, a real good friend of mine is hispanic; his parents have been in the US over a decade now. I still can't talk to them; because they only speak Spanish. Everyone they do business with, like their mechanic, is just another Spanish speaker. Apparently he has really good prices, I just can't to talk him.

    There are literal businesses in my area that only speak Spanish. The menus are in Spanish, the staff only speak Spanish. If I got run over by a car in their parking lots, I literally wouldn't be able to give them my last dying words because they don't speak the $#@!ing language. That's the kind of country we want? Just come the $#@! on in, you're a great person, who $#@!ing cares?

    You have morons like Wenzel say "man, if only we had even more immigration I could get 10 maids for my house and it would be so awesome." Yeah, until your kids have no friends because you're surrounded by all the Spanish-speaking-only immigrants you just imported. And then they vote themselves a $20/hour minimum wage because it's 10-to-1 at that point, and then they vote to eminent domain your land away because they have a different idea of how big a house should be, and a different idea of how government should function.
    -So, yeah, maybe life is a little more complex than "immigration=good".

    So, no, unless these people that are calling for more immigration already live in these areas that are 27% white, $#@! them! We already have these paradises, go move there, it's great. By your own definition, it must be great, and being somewhere great is in your own best interest, so therefore you must do it, right? Or is it maybe not that black and white? Or are you just full of NIMBY bull$#@!? Because it's coming to a backyard near you.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    I do try.
    Personally, I never have a problem with you, AF. We don't always agree but we can discuss stuff w/o all the insulting BS. I believe others are on here to deliberately create division but I still think YOU are an awesome dude.
    There is no spoon.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Personally, I never have a problem with you, AF. We don't always agree but we can discuss stuff w/o all the insulting BS. I believe others are on here to deliberately create division but I still think YOU are an awesome dude.
    I agree with this ^^ The only issue that I take is calling for killing and murdering on-sight. I try to sum it up as AF is really FED up and just looking to vent - I hope.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3)

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    I agree with this ^^ The only issue that I take is calling for killing and murdering on-sight. I try to sum it up as AF is really FED up and just looking to vent - I hope.
    Pew pews are a way of restoring freedom but they should only be the last resort, maybe he sees no hope in a non violent revolution?

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Pew pews are a way of restoring freedom but they should only be the last resort, maybe he sees no hope in a non violent revolution?
    The revolution should be against a corrupt government, not pawns ;-)
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3)

  29. #55

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    If there are pawns in between you blocking the queen how do you checkmate?
    By "working within the system"? LOL

    The first goal is to recognize where the problem begins. Which many still have not learned to do.

    Feeding the beast to starve the beast is not the way to win against the beast ;-)
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3)



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    By "working within the system"? LOL

    The first goal is to recognize where the problem begins. Which many still have not learned to do.

    Feeding the beast to starve the beast is not the way to win against the beast ;-)
    What do you think allowing unlimted amount of food in for the beast to eat does?

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    What do you think allowing unlimted amount of food in for the beast to eat does?
    The question becomes, who is responsible for that? Me? You? The corporatist-lobbyists?

    I know I keep asking this, but, do you follow the money?
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3)

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    What do you think allowing unlimted amount of food in for the beast to eat does?
    Start with the real problem.

    Big centralized gov is designed to take over & rule. Hamilton knew this- the CONstitution was a Hamiltonian coup & the Anti-Federalists were right. Loss of freedom has nothing to do with borders & outsiders & everything to do with who's really boss.

    And- if you're going to quote The Matrix, I suggest you watch it again- spot on.
    There is no spoon.

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    The question becomes, who is responsible for that? Me? You? The corporatist-lobbyists?

    I know I keep asking this, but, do you follow the money?
    I guess letting the beast eat too much and kill itself is a solution but my guess is the beast will eat its fill and we will be stuck eating ourselves.

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