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Thread: A new system of government

  1. #31
    Another point in favor of this system is that the Steward who has control of the laws has lots of other things to do to make his reputation and keep him busy as opposed to a legislature that has nothing better to do than to make more laws.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Another point in favor of this system is that the Steward who has control of the laws has lots of other things to do to make his reputation and keep him busy as opposed to a legislature that has nothing better to do than to make more laws.
    "The Patriarch"

    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    Now a days the future freedoms of ones posterity is less important than the freedom today to insert what one wants into ones posterior.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That is a lie.
    @Brian4Liberty, devil keeps spreading this lie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I will report violations of the forum rules to the forum staff when they are egregious enough.

    You should remember that.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    My system would have allowed his removal.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by brushfire View Post
    Why not start with a bill of rights, and a constitutional amendment process. Then make all other laws expire, requiring them to be re-passed, every 5 years. Kinda like they do with the debt ceiling. That way law makers will be constantly busy re-passing sh!t that has expired - sticking with the heart of what matters.

    The accumulating mess of laws we have now is unsustainable from a liberty standpoint.
    ...
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  7. #35
    Cross-posted from another thread for full context:

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    “What we can’t do is fail to pass something,” adding, “The urgency of this is not lost on any of us.”
    No Turtle, you can fail to pass something. And there is no urgency.

    This “do something, even if it doesn’t work or is unconstitutional” mentality has to go.
    Lawmakers gonna make laws. It's what they do. That is, after all, the entire reason for their existence in the first place.

    Legislatures and liberty cannot coexist. Inevitably, the latter will increasingly yield to the former.
    And yet anarchy always gives way to government.

    We are doomed to the cycle and all we can do is try to lengthen the good parts and shorten the bad parts.
    Anarchy hasn't got anything to do with it. If, as you say, anarchy always gives way to government, and if a government to which anarchy has given way institutes a legislature, then any liberty extant under that government is surely doomed (and sooner than it otherwise might have been).

    A minarchic society that burdens itself with a legislature (a group of people whose express and continuing purpose is to create new and more rules - i.e., to legislate) will not and cannot remain minarchic. Such a state does not fluctuate in "cycles" around liberty, but maintains a persistent trajectory away from it. It may move along that trajectory with more or less velocity at any given time, and there may even be brief spasms of retrograde; but it always, on net, moves away ...
    Occasionally new laws will be needed and occasionally old laws will need to be altered.
    Yes, certainly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    But I do agree that having people whose only job is to pass laws is problematic.

    I have proposed a system in which the person with the power to enact laws has a lot of other things to do to make their reputation and keep them busy, perhaps you would like to comment on it in the thread for it:

    A new system of government
    The fundamental problem - or one of the fundamental problems - is that vesting the power to conjure ex nihilo additions, emendations or annulments to the law exclusively in the hands of one person or several is injurious to liberty and will eventually be fatal to it. Over the long term, it will serve only to "institutionalize" an excellent means of eroding such liberty as may yet exist, rather than safeguard liberty against such erosion.

    Rather, such additions, emendations or annulments as may be salubrious should be allowed to evolve organically in the application of established customary "old and good" law (born from out of tradition and precedent), not in the ad hoc creation of arbitrary[1] statutory "new and unproven" law (born from out of nowhere, as it were).



    [1] By "arbitrary" I mean "due to the predilections or desires of one or more particular persons" rather than "randomly, or seemingly without cause or reason." There are always causes and reasons (though often not good ones) for such laws, and they are never random ...
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 08-09-2019 at 11:33 PM. Reason: a excellent --> an excellent


    Frťdťric Bastiat (1801-1850)

    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law." - The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." - Government (p. 99)
    • "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
      - Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)
    • "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
      - Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)

    tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito
    MOFA (Make Orwell Fiction Again)

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    From another thread: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...r%92-in-Senate



    Yes, certainly.



    The fundamental problem - or one of the fundamental problems - is that vesting the power to conjure ex nihilo additions, emendations or annulments to the law exclusively in the hands of one person or several is injurious to liberty and will eventually be fatal to it. Over the long term, it will serve only to "institutionalize" a excellent means of eroding such liberty as may yet exist, rather than safeguard against such erosion.

    Rather, such additions, emendations or annulments as may be salubrious should be allowed to evolve organically in the application of established customary "old and good" law (born from out of tradition and precedent), not in the ad hoc creation of arbitrary[1] statutory "new and unproven" law (born from out of nowhere, as it were).



    [1] By "arbitrary" I mean "due to the predilections or desires of one or more particular persons" rather than "randomly, or seemingly without cause or reason." There are always causes and reasons (though often not good ones) for such laws, and they are never random ...
    The more people you have involved the easier it is for them to blame everyone else and the harder it is to replace them and undo what they did.

    Everybody hates Congress but continues to reelect their Congresscritters because it is "all the fault of the other members of Congress"

    I also like the idea suggested by brushfire to require all laws not in the Constitution to expire periodically so that they can be killed through neglect and so the Steward is occupied with maintaining them.

    Do you have a system you would recommend?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Ya I'm all for government transparency.

    I don't care that much if some guy had sex with a 17 year old on Epstein's island.

    I DO care a LOT if they had sex with very young children and were doing Satanic ceremonies with children.

    But as for the first guy, if he is making tyrannical laws in government or he is some corporate leader, financer, banker, media mogul or entertainer and they are doing the bidding of the deep state to further erode our liberties.. and he is doing so because he is being blackmailed over having sex with a 17 year old, then that's important to get out in the open.. I don't even think he needs to go to jail, they just need to have everything out in the open to significantly weaken the blackmailing operation which is impacting all of us.

    Blackmail can lead to bodies on the floor. The Clinton's have a long trail behind them. As for the commander-in-chief have we seen any float to the surface yet?

    Re: Transparency, I went into a chain hair cutting place and next to the glowing "open" sign directly positioned across from the register were two signs that could only be read from the inside but which could easily be flipped at a moments notice. One red, "Hair Stylist Wanted" the other read "Associate Wanted". Imagine if our government workers and representatives were constantly reminded that they are only "temp" employees.
    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    It is a deconstructionist society. In an age of overload of information, truth of words has become irrelevant. Truth of meaning is all that is left.
    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    You can't even handle freedom in the fake world.
    2 + 2 = 5.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I've been working on it for years but I'm always interested in ways to improve it, if you have any ideas let me know.

    I working shared document of some kind? I'd love to read it.
    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    It is a deconstructionist society. In an age of overload of information, truth of words has become irrelevant. Truth of meaning is all that is left.
    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    You can't even handle freedom in the fake world.
    2 + 2 = 5.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    I working shared document of some kind? I'd love to read it.
    It's mostly in my head right now, this thread is the most I've ever put down in electrons or words so far.

    I plan on writing up a Constitution for it some time and I'll add it to this thread when I do.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It's mostly in my head right now, this thread is the most I've ever put down in electrons or words so far.

    I plan on writing up a Constitution for it some time and I'll add it to this thread when I do.
    If you do. Might I suggest numbering each line and sentance, (tedious I know) but as you post it here we can use those points as reference so others can refer to them for input. Just an idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    It is a deconstructionist society. In an age of overload of information, truth of words has become irrelevant. Truth of meaning is all that is left.
    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    You can't even handle freedom in the fake world.
    2 + 2 = 5.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    If you do. Might I suggest numbering each line and sentance, (tedious I know) but as you post it here we can use those points as reference so others can refer to them for input. Just an idea.
    I'll keep that in mind.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It's mostly in my head right now, this thread is the most I've ever put down in electrons or words so far.

    I plan on writing up a Constitution for it some time and I'll add it to this thread when I do.
    I would also keep in mind this quote. "That which governs best, governs least"
    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    It is a deconstructionist society. In an age of overload of information, truth of words has become irrelevant. Truth of meaning is all that is left.
    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    You can't even handle freedom in the fake world.
    2 + 2 = 5.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    I would also keep in mind this quote. "That which governs best, governs least"
    Absolutely!
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I'll keep that in mind.
    I admire your ambition.
    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    It is a deconstructionist society. In an age of overload of information, truth of words has become irrelevant. Truth of meaning is all that is left.
    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    You can't even handle freedom in the fake world.
    2 + 2 = 5.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    I working shared document of some kind? I'd love to read it.
    MODERATOR'S, Is this something we can do here on this site?
    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    It is a deconstructionist society. In an age of overload of information, truth of words has become irrelevant. Truth of meaning is all that is left.
    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    You can't even handle freedom in the fake world.
    2 + 2 = 5.

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