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Thread: Socialism: Are we flirting with it or is it already here?

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  1. #1

    Socialism: Are we flirting with it or is it already here?

    Split off from another thread as requested.

    Quote Originally Posted by eleganz
    This country needs to make up its mind and stop flirting with socialism. Up or down vote once and for all and close the book forever on this BS.
    That is the kinda funny part of all of this. We aren't flirting with socialism. It's here and it's been here for 90 years. Most people don't know it but the communist manifesto has already been enacted almost fully already, with the finishing touches in the works. Now, the implementors just want people to openly accept what's already been in place for a long time, but with more overt police state measures that accompany socialist policies. Social security? It's got "social" right in the title. Property ownership? That was abolished a long time ago. No one legally owns anything in this country. We are granted usage rights but that's it. Media and communication is fully controlled and what isn't is being stamped out as I write this. Private transportation is being phased out per Agenda 21 2030 mandates for autonomous cars and dense urban development. Politicians are fully controlled. Income tax and economic centralization...obvious...nuff said there. Inheritance abolition. Less and less is being passed down between generations lately as sky high elderly healthcare costs and things like reverse mortgages eat up all of what would be inherited.

    -------------------------
    Describes it pretty well, though it appears to have been written at the most basic level and even before recent developments like Agenda 21 2030 and social media censorship, among others:
    http://laissez-fairerepublic.com/TenPlanks.html

    Although Marx advocated the use of any means, especially including violent revolution, to bring about socialist dictatorship, he suggested ten political goals for developed countries such as the United States. How far has the United States -- traditionally the bastion of freedom, free markets, and private property -- gone down the Marxist road to fulfill these socialist aims? You be the judge. The following are Marx's ten planks from his Communist Manifesto.

    1. Abolition of private property in land and application of all rents of land to public purpose.
    The courts have interpreted the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (1868) to give the government far more "eminent domain" power than was originally intended, Under the rubric of "eminent domain" and various zoning regulations, land use regulations by the Bureau of Land Managementproperty taxes, and "environmental" excuses, private property rights have become very diluted and private property in landis, vehicles, and other forms are seized almost every day in this country under the "forfeiture" provisions of the RICO statutes and the so-called War on Drugs..


    2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
    The 16th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, 1913 (which some scholars maintain was never properly ratified), and various State income taxes, established this major Marxist coup in the United States many decades ago. These taxes continue to drain the lifeblood out of the American economy and greatly reduce the accumulation of desperately needed capital for future growth, business starts, job creation, and salary increases.


    3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
    Another Marxian attack on private property rights is in the form of Federal & State estate taxes and other inheritance taxes, which have abolished or at least greatly diluted the right of private property owners to determine the disposition and distribution of their estates upon their death. Instead, government bureaucrats get their greedy hands involved .


    4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
    We call it government seizures, tax liens, "forfeiture" Public "law" 99-570 (1986); Executive order 11490, sections 1205, 2002 which gives private land to the Department of Urban Development; the imprisonment of "terrorists" and those who speak out or write against the "government" (1997 Crime/Terrorist Bill); or the IRS confiscation of property without due process.


    5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.
    The Federal Reserve System, created by the Federal Reserve Act of Congress in 1913, is indeed such a "national bank" and it politically manipulates interest rates and holds a monopoly on legal counterfeiting in the United States. This is exactly what Marx had in mind and completely fulfills this plank, another major socialist objective. Yet, most Americans naively believe the U.S. of A. is far from a Marxist or socialist nation.


    6. Centralization of the means of communication and transportation in the hands of the state.
    In the U.S., communication and transportation are controlled and regulated by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) established by the Communications Act of 1934 and the Department of Transportation and the Interstate Commerce Commission (established by Congress in 1887), and the Federal Aviation Administration as well as Executive orders 11490, 10999 -- not to mention various state bureaucracies and regulations. There is also the federal postal monopoly, AMTRAK and CONRAIL -- outright socialist (government-owned) enterprises. Instead of free-market private enteprrise in these important industries, these fields in America are semi-cartelized through the government's regulatory-industiral complex.


    7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
    While the U.S. does not have vast "collective farms" (which failed so miserably in the Soviet Union), we nevertheless do have a significant degree of government involvement in agriculture in the form of price support subsidies and acreage alotments and land-use controls. The Desert Entry Act and The Department of Agriculture. As well as the Department of Commerce and Labor, Department of Interior, the Evironmental Protection Agency, Bureau of Land Management, Bureau of Reclamation, Bureau of Mines, National Park Service, and the IRS control of business through corporate regulations.


    8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of Industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
    We call it the Social Security Administration and The Department of Labor. The National debt and inflation caused by the communal bank has caused the need for a two "income" family. Woman in the workplace since the 1920's, the 19th amendment of the U.S. Constitution, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, assorted Socialist Unions, affirmative action, the Federal Public Works Program and of course Executive order 11000. And I almost forgot...The Equal Rights Amendment means that women should do all work that men do including the military and since passage it would make women subject to the draft.


    9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.
    We call it the Planning Reorganization Act of 1949 , zoning (Title 17 1910-1990) and Super Corporate Farms, as well as Executive orders 11647, 11731 (ten regions) and Public "law" 89-136.

    10. Free education for all children in government schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. etc.
    People are being taxed to support what we call 'public' schools, which train the young to work for the communal debt system. We also call it the Department of Education, the NEA and Outcome Based "Education" .
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

    Israel, under control of the Crown and, ultimately, the Vatican, own the USA. If you don't know this by now....

    Talk to people about liberty. You won't find it on websites, you won't find it in politicians.

    Visiting the Outer Banks of NC?
    Outer Banks NC Fishing Boat Rentals



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  3. #2
    Nope, already here.

    As I noted in the OP of the thread this was split from, I guess all that's needed now is a Man of Steel (Stalin) and some GULAGS to make things complete.

  4. #3
    Of course socialism is already here. It has been for the past few decades and will continue to do so until the people do something about it.
    "Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."

    Calvin Coolidge

  5. #4
    Socialism isn't here already (private property still exists), but we're getting there.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Socialism isn't here already (private property still exists), but we're getting there.
    Refer to #1 and #4 of the OP.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Refer to #1 and #4 of the OP.
    It's worse than that. All of the land we think we "own" is actually Fee Simple Deed instead of Alloidial Title. In other words, when a mortgage is taken out and the buyer signs the 40 page 'Deed of Trust' that's placed in front of them by the friendly real estate attorney, the property is placed into a Trust run by the state and local governments, where the government becomes the owner of the land and the "buyer" merely a tenant in perpetuity. Same with vehicles. And most everything else we consider to be "property". After all, we've never actually paid for anything. Why? Because the currency itself is debt and you can never pay a debt with another debt. You can only shift the debt around. We have what's called an "equitable color of title" to property. A title in appearance....but not actual ownership. We are allowed to use the property and if we violate the terms, it is taken by force by people in various costumes. If you own something then no one in a costume can simply take it from you, legally, for refusing to follow some arbitrary rule. This form of faux ownership is the basis of all of the asset forfeitures, vehicle impoundments and seizures for victimless "crimes" and failure to pay taxes, etc. It's because the state already owns it and you just get to use it.
    Last edited by devil21; 06-12-2019 at 06:44 PM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

    Israel, under control of the Crown and, ultimately, the Vatican, own the USA. If you don't know this by now....

    Talk to people about liberty. You won't find it on websites, you won't find it in politicians.

    Visiting the Outer Banks of NC?
    Outer Banks NC Fishing Boat Rentals

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Refer to #1 and #4 of the OP.
    I've read the Communist Manifesto and I'm aware of the many restraints which the government places on private property rights.

    And yet, as I said, private property exists (and not just in a formal-legal sense; there is still real substance to it).

    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    It's worse than that. All of the land we think we "own" is actually Fee Simple Deed instead of Alloidial Title. In other words, when a mortgage is taken out and the buyer signs the 40 page 'Deed of Trust' that's placed in front of them by the friendly real estate attorney, the property is placed into a Trust run by the state and local governments, where the government becomes the owner of the land and the "buyer" merely a tenant in perpetuity. Same with vehicles. And most everything else we consider to be "property". After all, we've never actually paid for anything. Why? Because the currency itself is debt and you can never pay a debt with another debt. You can only shift the debt around. We have what's called an "equitable color of title" to property. A title in appearance....but not actual ownership. We are allowed to use the property and if we violate the terms, it is taken by force by people in various costumes. If you own something then no one in a costume can simply take it from you, legally, for refusing to follow some arbitrary rule. This form of faux ownership is the basis of all of the asset forfeitures, vehicle impoundments and seizures for victimless "crimes" and failure to pay taxes, etc. It's because the state already owns it and you just get to use it.
    By that logic, private property has never existed (since states have always been able to seize it for non-payment of taxes), in which case the distinction between socialist and non-socialist societies becomes meaningless. But private property doesn't have to be absolute or absent; a person owning land in fee simple has property rights (a lesser form of property rights than someone holding land in allodium, but nonetheless). If you want to characterize the state as the ultimate owner of everything, with all of us as renters, that's fine - but keep in mind that the rights associated with being a renter are themselves property rights.
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 06-13-2019 at 11:31 AM.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I've read the Communist Manifesto and I'm aware of the many restraints which the government places on private property rights.

    And yet, as I said, private property exists (and not just in a formal-legal sense; there is still real substance to it).



    By that logic, private property has never existed (since states have always been able to seize it for non-payment of taxes), in which case the distinction between socialist and non-socialist societies becomes meaningless. But private property doesn't have to be absolute or absent; a person owning land in fee simple has property rights (a lesser form of property rights than someone holding land in allodium, but nonetheless). If you want to characterize the state as the ultimate owner of everything, with all of us as renters, that's fine - but keep in mind that the rights associated with being a renter are themselves property rights.




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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Refer to #1 and #4 of the OP.
    Today I can start and own my business, build and sell a property. Sorry but we still have private property rights. Yes, they can seize your property if they believe its used in the committing of a crime or terrorism but those are rare cases. Like some people have said, we have a mixed economy that is evenly weighted between socialism and capitalism but the balance has held steady for decades, it could tilt towards socialism in the future but it hasn't started doing that.
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Today I can start and own my business, build and sell a property. Sorry but we still have private property rights. Yes, they can seize your property if they believe its used in the committing of a crime or terrorism but those are rare cases. Like some people have said, we have a mixed economy that is evenly weighted between socialism and capitalism but the balance has held steady for decades, it could tilt towards socialism in the future but it hasn't started doing that.
    Such as a wall, a road, or a Parking Lot.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Such as a wall, a road, or a Parking Lot.
    No, like cars, cash, real estate and sometimes businesses. Never heard of the US govt taking road, walls or parking lots from citizens
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Today I can start and own my business, build and sell a property. Sorry but we still have private property rights. Yes, they can seize your property if they believe its used in the committing of a crime or terrorism but those are rare cases. Like some people have said, we have a mixed economy that is evenly weighted between socialism and capitalism but the balance has held steady for decades, it could tilt towards socialism in the future but it hasn't started doing that.
    Or eminent domain or asset forfeiture ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    Or eminent domain or asset forfeiture ...
    And tax liens etc. Just being curious, has any govt entity ever seized your private property? your car(s), your real estate? I think most people are confident that they can navigate the law without their property being seized and that is the point I was trying to make. This is because we still have private property rights in this country.
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Socialism isn't here already (private property still exists), but we're getting there.
    Was going to say just this^^ Mixed economy =/= socialism. It's a cluster$#@!, but not socialist yet. You folks get back to me when the socialists seize the means of production.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Was going to say just this^^ Mixed economy =/= socialism. It's a cluster$#@!, but not socialist yet. You folks get back to me when the socialists seize the means of production.
    Do you have any idea what it takes to start a small business in the US? Costs & regulations make it almost impossible for the average joe.
    There is no spoon.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Do you have any idea what it takes to start a small business in the US? Costs & regulations make it almost impossible for the average joe.

    Not only start a small business, but also keep it afloat.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Do you have any idea what it takes to start a small business in the US? Costs & regulations make it almost impossible for the average joe.
    It varies by industry. As a rule, there are fees and licensing and taxes to be paid for everything you can imagine and then some. But I have taken small business administration and learned to write/pitch business plans, so I know a little about it. I agree that the average Joe Murican alone will have difficulties with a new startup. They tell you the first day of business class that most new small businesses fail. (3 out of 5, IIRC)
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Do you have any idea what it takes to start a small business in the US? Costs & regulations make it almost impossible for the average joe.
    When you register a business (regis...hmm, sounds "royal", no? I wonder why that is...) you are giving ownership of the business to the government you registered with and then must abide by the arbitrary rules that the Trustees and Executors of the Trust (Court Officials and Legislators, respectively) come up with. Codes are not laws, they are corporate regulations regulating commerce. You don't own a registered business. The state owns it under the Trust and legally sets the rules under which you can operate it, no different than what I detailed about property and vehicles earlier in the thread.

    @juleswin
    For the correct 10,000 feet view, think of all of what you described about buying and selling as if our entire economic system is one big casino. We use the casino's chips to play the various games throughout the casino (FRNs) but the casino always owns the chips and all of the games and sets the rules for each game, which always ensure the casino wins. When you buy and sell "your" property, you are still just playing a casino game with their chips and their rules and of course the casino always gets a cut, whether directly like blackjack or indirectly like Poker. Take their chips out of the casino and they suddenly lose all value. Violate the casino's rules by "cheating" and they'll seize "your" chips. Some people manage to win occasionally at the casino and they'll even throw you a few benefits to keep you voluntarily playing (free drinks!!) but overall the house always wins.

    Coincidence that Trump,Adelson, Wilbur Ross, et al love the casino business? They see the 10,000 feet view. It's somewhat telling that Trump himself couldn't even manage casinos from going bankrupt, though.
    Last edited by devil21; 06-13-2019 at 10:46 AM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

    Israel, under control of the Crown and, ultimately, the Vatican, own the USA. If you don't know this by now....

    Talk to people about liberty. You won't find it on websites, you won't find it in politicians.

    Visiting the Outer Banks of NC?
    Outer Banks NC Fishing Boat Rentals

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    When you register a business (regis...hmm, sounds "royal", no? I wonder why that is...) you are giving ownership of the business to the government you registered with and then must abide by the arbitrary rules that the Trustees and Executors of the Trust (Court Officials and Legislators, respectively) come up with. Codes are not laws, they are corporate regulations regulating commerce. You don't own a registered business. The state owns it under the Trust and legally sets the rules under which you can operate it, no different than what I detailed about property and vehicles earlier in the thread.

    @juleswin
    For the correct 10,000 feet view, think of all of what you described about buying and selling as if our entire economic system is one big casino. We use the casino's chips to play the various games throughout the casino (FRNs) but the casino always owns the chips and all of the games and sets the rules for each game, which always ensure the casino wins. When you buy and sell "your" property, you are still just playing a casino game with their chips and their rules and of course the casino always gets a cut, whether directly like blackjack or indirectly like Poker. Take their chips out of the casino and they suddenly lose all value. Violate the casino's rules by "cheating" and they'll seize "your" chips. Some people manage to win occasionally at the casino and they'll even throw you a few benefits to keep you voluntarily playing (free drinks!!) but overall the house always wins.

    Coincidence that Trump,Adelson, Wilbur Ross, et al love the casino business? They see the 10,000 feet view. It's somewhat telling that Trump himself couldn't even manage casinos from going bankrupt, though.
    You actually own your casino chips, you can go home with it, trade it or toss it if you want. Like I said, if you can buy and sell something, you for the most part own it, its just that simple
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  23. #20
    Not nyet.

    Don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows

  24. #21
    How about we take a look at Marx for a sec... He was a hobo that lived in his parents basement when he came up with his utopian ideals. And people still fall for his $#@!? Really? A guy with very little to zero real world experience on why his philosophies would fail? Probably only supported by those at the top because its used as BAIT to get idiots to throw away their freedom that their fathers died to acquire.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    How about we take a look at Marx for a sec... He was a hobo that lived in his parents basement when he came up with his utopian ideals. And people still fall for his $#@!? Really? A guy with very little to zero real world experience on why his philosophies would fail? Probably only supported by those at the top because its used as BAIT to get idiots to throw away their freedom that their fathers died to acquire.
    Marx makes people feel good and empowered. Everybody should support him or else ....

  26. #23
    116 years and an For later...yep

    why I should worship the state (who apparently is the only party that can possess guns without question).
    The state's only purpose is to kill and control. Why do you worship it? - Sola_Fide

    Baptiste said.
    At which point will Americans realize that creating an unaccountable institution that is able to pass its liability on to tax-payers is immoral and attracts sociopaths?

  27. #24
    Flirting? Socialism is on third base and it's only a matter of time before it slides into home and we're completely $#@!ed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I've read the Communist Manifesto and I'm aware of the many restraints which the government places on private property rights.

    And yet, as I said, private property exists (and not just in a formal-legal sense; there is still real substance to it).
    The legal axiom about possession being 9/10 of the law, I assume. What I'm saying is that it's the remaining 1/10 that's the important part as far as private property ownership is concerned, at least in a legal sense. It's that 1/10, the legal status of "title" that forms the basis for the rest of it.

    By that logic, private property has never existed (since states have always been able to seize it for non-payment of taxes), in which case the distinction between socialist and non-socialist societies becomes meaningless. In reality, private property doesn't have to be absolute or absent; a person owning land in fee simple has property rights (a lesser form of property rights than someone holding land in allodium, but nonetheless). If you want to characterize the state as the ultimate owner of everything, with all of us as renters, that's fine - but keep in mind that the rights associated with being a renter are themselves property rights.
    I dub them "usage rights" and I thought that was implied. They are not, however, ownership. Consider that even usage rights are subject to every little zoning rule or permit requirement/approval. So, in reality, how many rights are there really?

    Can you show me evidence that a state could/would/did seize private property for non-payment of property taxes in the late 1700's, for example?

    My reading of history shows that private property did exist for a very short time, courtesy of the Founders. Prior to that, it was legal ownership by the King/Queen for everyone except the upper levels of the royal and religious hierarchy (Lords, eg). That royal system of faux ownership was re-implemented here once the legal profession got its hooks into law-making again during and in the aftermath of the Civil War. True private property ownership had a very (relatively) short stint compared to the otherwise many hundreds, or even thousands, of years that it has not been so I can certainly see how one could say that it has never existed. Never is absolute term though.

    Fun fact: The Trust system I referenced was created by the Knights Templar during the Crusades in order to assure their lands that they actually owned, as soldiers of the Church and Royals, were returned to them upon returning from a Crusade. That was the 1200's. The system was further streamlined in the aftermath of the 1666 London Fire. The same system is in effect here today.
    Last edited by devil21; 06-13-2019 at 12:00 PM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

    Israel, under control of the Crown and, ultimately, the Vatican, own the USA. If you don't know this by now....

    Talk to people about liberty. You won't find it on websites, you won't find it in politicians.

    Visiting the Outer Banks of NC?
    Outer Banks NC Fishing Boat Rentals

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    I dub them "usage rights" and I thought that was implied. They are not, however, ownership. Consider that even usage rights are subject to every little zoning rule or permit requirement/approval. So, in reality, how many rights are there really?
    All property rights are use rights, and all of them are subject to various degrees of restraint.

    "Ownership" just means a (relatively) unrestrained use right, as opposed to a more restrained use right like tenancy.

    These are only differences of degree.

    As to socialism, the question is: to what extent does the state restrain my right to use my property? Or, what is the same thing, to what extent do I have discretion as to how to use my property? If the answer is "the state totally restrains my use of my property, as to which I have no discretion whatsoever," then it's your property in name only, and that's socialism. If not, not.

    Now, by this rigorous definition, there has probably never been a socialist state - even the USSR et al allowed a certain amount of private property in trivial things (e.g, clothes, cooking pots, etc), at least de facto. But there's a huge difference of degree between that and the current situation in the US. We actually do have considerable (albeit diminishing) discretion in how we use our houses, cars, bank accounts, etc. That these things are our properties isn't a mere legal fiction (yet).

    Can you show me evidence that a state could/would/did seize private property for non-payment of property taxes in the late 1700's, for example?
    Do you dispute that taxes existed at that time?
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    All property rights are use rights, and all of them are subject to various degrees of restraint.

    "Ownership" just means a (relatively) unrestrained use right, as opposed to a more restrained use right like tenancy.

    These are only differences of degree.
    Considering that the thread is about socialism, which calls for abolition of private property, that plank has long since been fulfilled. Saying that it still exists is kind of like saying that plantation slaves owned the hovels they lived in because they could cook in them or maintain the grass outside and therefore had "property rights".

    As to socialism, the question is: to what extent does the state restrain my right to use my property? Or, what is the same thing, to what extent do I have discretion as to how to use my property? If the answer is "the state totally restrains my use of my property, as to which I have no discretion whatsoever," then it's your property in name only, and that's socialism. If not, not.

    Now, by this rigorous definition, there has probably never been a socialist state - even the USSR et al allowed a certain amount of private property in trivial things (e.g, clothes, cooking pots, etc), at least de facto. But there's a huge difference of degree between that and the current situation in the US. We actually do have considerable (albeit diminishing) discretion in how we use our houses, cars, bank accounts, etc. That these things are our properties isn't a mere legal fiction (yet).
    Well, there is the little problem where the houses, cars and bank accounts are not even in your name but rather the ALL CAPS NAME of the Trust that was created after we were born that allows for a living being to engage in commerce with dead paper entities called corporations. The rabbit hole on this topic is deep, son. Nothing is what it appears to be. Any way, I'd argue that the bits of leeway that we do have stemming from the usage license is mostly just to maintain the property for the continued beneficial use of the real owner, as a means to continue to generate tax and fee revenue.

    Do you dispute that taxes existed at that time?
    There were some forms of taxes yes, as authorized by the state's and 1789 Constitution. The question was whether property could be seized for not paying taxes, namely property taxes. I'm going to assume you couldn't find any evidence of land being seized for failure to pay anything resembling a property tax that we have today.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

    Israel, under control of the Crown and, ultimately, the Vatican, own the USA. If you don't know this by now....

    Talk to people about liberty. You won't find it on websites, you won't find it in politicians.

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  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    Considering that the thread is about socialism, which calls for abolition of private property, that plank has long since been fulfilled. Saying that it still exists is kind of like saying that plantation slaves owned the hovels they lived in because they could cook in them or maintain the grass outside and therefore had "property rights".
    If you can't see the difference between chattel slavery and our present situation, I don't know what to tell you.

    Well, there is the little problem where the houses, cars and bank accounts are not even in your name but rather the ALL CAPS NAME of the Trust that was created after we were born that allows for a living being to engage in commerce with dead paper entities called corporations. The rabbit hole on this topic is deep, son. Nothing is what it appears to be. Any way, I'd argue that the bits of leeway that we do have stemming from the usage license is mostly just to maintain the property for the continued beneficial use of the real owner, as a means to continue to generate tax and fee revenue.
    I'm all too familiar with the "sovereign citizen" mythology.

    There were some forms of taxes yes, as authorized by the state's and 1789 Constitution. The question was whether property could be seized for not paying taxes, namely property taxes. I'm going to assume you couldn't find any evidence of land being seized for failure to pay anything resembling a property tax that we have today.
    Then I'm confused...

    If you know that there were taxes, how can you be denying that property was seized for non-payment?

    How do you think taxes were collected when someone refused to pay?
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken



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