We Are Destroyed

[osan]

We are not on our way, as a people, a culture, a statistical glob, to destruction. We are already there - we most of us just do not yet realize it.

I read and hear words of the "we need to X..." sort, whether from libertarians, antifa, socialists, or whatever other label you care to cough up. Those words are always vague in the sense that they say what must be done in the opinion of he who utters, yet never tell us how to do them, nor do they suggest in the least manner how we do them such that we do not end up in an equally horrible position in the aftermath, or worse.

On the whole, we humans are utterly horrible creatures, our short but blood-soaked history a vulgar and frank testament to the truth of the assertion. There is little to recommend us, which may well be the reason we have not heard from other worlds. Who in their right minds would place into human hands the technologies that take objects between star systems? We cannot even handle our own means, much less those of more capable beings.

Note how all the classical big-mouths of history have told us precisely how to "revolution", yet not a one has uttered so much as a single meaningful peep as to how to live with one another; how to structure ourselves in aftermath such that we do not become precisely that which we just killed off. It is all well and good to speak of "draining the swamp" and all it implies, but nobody is talking much about what to do after the gore has painted our streets and the walls of the capitols.

Forgetting the rest of the world, we Americans are "slouching our ways to Gemmorah", as my little bro is fond of saying. At best, we have vague notions of proper human relations; of what it means to live in accord with our birthrights as free men, and here I am being generous to an ill-reasoned fault. In truth and in deeper detail, we have little clue as to what it means to be free. We do not, in fact, recognize actual freedom as such and when confronted with it even as a theory, most of us recoil in fear, horror, disgust, and openly hostile, dripping, raving hatred.

We, the most of us, have neither the recognition of what life in accord with proper relations between men is, nor the inclination toward learning.

Therefore, we are already destroyed. The only step that remains to us is to acknowledge and accept that this is the case. Because we will not change how we are in sufficient measure as a statistical whole, the only thing we can do is wait for the end, because that is where we are heading, "end" not necessarily meaning extinction of the genus, but certainly the end of any condition that anyone with sense would consider worth the living. The few with aspirations even the most meekly adventurous beyond the corridors our apparent future shall define for us, will be consumed as such temerity will one day soon meet with zero-tolerance.

This is where we stand, and that is where we are going, all by our own choices; all because we chose false convenience and token fortune over that which is right and proper.

Enjoy what you may, because I suspect things are only going to get worse as we lurch forward into a future that is very likely not worth the living. Even if a man like Trump turns out fulfilling his promise to us, what about the day he leaves office? Who and what will fill the vacuum? If he were the savior - the great drainer of the swamp, so what? Are we cut of a cloth to inherit the improved America? I say not. Why? Because we were and are not of the fabric to do this work ourselves. We pimped our responsibilities off onto the shoulder of a "leader", demurring so pathetically from being leaders ourselves. We deserve nothing of our freedoms - not a whit of it, but rather only the degradations of the slaves that we have become precisely because we are filthy little cowards, addicted to the aforementioned conveniences, cheap and tawdry.

Yes, whoop it up while you can. Indulge yourselves in the pretty lies and bull$#@!, because it matters no whit - we are destroyed.

[Anti Federalist]

yet not a one has uttered so much as a single meaningful peep as to how to live with one another; how to structure ourselves in aftermath such that we do not become precisely that which we just killed off.

It's pretty simple really:

A - Mind your own business.

B- Keep your hands to yourself.

[Proph]

We are not on our way, as a people, a culture, a statistical glob, to destruction. We are already there - we most of us just do not yet realize it.

I read and hear words of the "we need to X..." sort, whether from libertarians, antifa, socialists, or whatever other label you care to cough up. Those words are always vague in the sense that they say what must be done in the opinion of he who utters, yet never tell us how to do them, nor do they suggest in the least manner how we do them such that we do not end up in an equally horrible position in the aftermath, or worse.

On the whole, we humans are utterly horrible creatures, our short but blood-soaked history a vulgar and frank testament to the truth of the assertion. There is little to recommend us, which may well be the reason we have not heard from other worlds. Who in their right minds would place into human hands the technologies that take objects between star systems? We cannot even handle our own means, much less those of more capable beings.

Note how all the classical big-mouths of history have told us precisely how to "revolution", yet not a one has uttered so much as a single meaningful peep as to how to live with one another; how to structure ourselves in aftermath such that we do not become precisely that which we just killed off. It is all well and good to speak of "draining the swamp" and all it implies, but nobody is talking much about what to do after the gore has painted our streets and the walls of the capitols.

Forgetting the rest of the world, we Americans are "slouching our ways to Gemmorah", as my little bro is fond of saying. At best, we have vague notions of proper human relations; of what it means to live in accord with our birthrights as free men, and here I am being generous to an ill-reasoned fault. In truth and in deeper detail, we have little clue as to what it means to be free. We do not, in fact, recognize actual freedom as such and when confronted with it even as a theory, most of us recoil in fear, horror, disgust, and openly hostile, dripping, raving hatred.

We, the most of us, have neither the recognition of what life in accord with proper relations between men is, nor the inclination toward learning.

Therefore, we are already destroyed. The only step that remains to us is to acknowledge and accept that this is the case. Because we will not change how we are in sufficient measure as a statistical whole, the only thing we can do is wait for the end, because that is where we are heading, "end" not necessarily meaning extinction of the genus, but certainly the end of any condition that anyone with sense would consider worth the living. The few with aspirations even the most meekly adventurous beyond the corridors our apparent future shall define for us, will be consumed as such temerity will one day soon meet with zero-tolerance.

This is where we stand, and that is where we are going, all by our own choices; all because we chose false convenience and token fortune over that which is right and proper.

Enjoy what you may, because I suspect things are only going to get worse as we lurch forward into a future that is very likely not worth the living. Even if a man like Trump turns out fulfilling his promise to us, what about the day he leaves office? Who and what will fill the vacuum? If he were the savior - the great drainer of the swamp, so what? Are we cut of a cloth to inherit the improved America? I say not. Why? Because we were and are not of the fabric to do this work ourselves. We pimped our responsibilities off onto the shoulder of a "leader", demurring so pathetically from being leaders ourselves. We deserve nothing of our freedoms - not a whit of it, but rather only the degradations of the slaves that we have become precisely because we are filthy little cowards, addicted to the aforementioned conveniences, cheap and tawdry.

Yes, whoop it up while you can. Indulge yourselves in the pretty lies and bull$#@!, because it matters no whit - we are destroyed.

How defeatist! ("We" have been watching too much propaganda!)

All you ever really have is here and now.

[Swordsmyth]

Some of us both now and throughout history have indeed opined on how to deal with human nature to create and preserve as much liberty, peace and prosperity as possible.

[osan]

It's pretty simple really:

A - Mind your own business.

B- Keep your hands to yourself.

And when was the last time you encountered this beyond a few scattered individuals here or there?

...


Precisely.

[osan]

How defeatist! ("We" have been watching too much propaganda!)

All you ever really have is here and now.

Defeatist?

Easy to say from behind your keyboard. But let me not be more "defeatist". Rather, let me ask this: how do you see we, the (maybe) 3% or perhaps 0.3%, proceeding to throw from our necks the vampires that have been feeding upon us for however many thousands of years? Please give details of such an operation - the nitty gritty.

[TheTexan]

Defeatist?

Easy to say from behind your keyboard. But let me not be more "defeatist". Rather, let me ask this: how do you see we, the (maybe) 3% or perhaps 0.3%, proceeding to throw from our necks the vampires that have been feeding upon us for however many thousands of years? Please give details of such an operation - the nitty gritty.

We can start a petition

[osan]

Some of us both now and throughout history have indeed opined on how to deal with human nature to create and preserve as much liberty, peace and prosperity as possible.

My gut reaction is to say that we need to remove all "states" forthwith and return to old world freedom where the hazards are at least as threatening as the perceived benefits may be seen as thrilling. This would be the ideal solution, but in order to go with that option, people would have to be willing to accept the hazard part, which they are not, which is why they want pretty slavery. They think they can have something at no cost. They are idiots, and that assessment is generous beyond forgiveness.

The problem with this, beyond the cowardice and other corruptions of the meaner that drives him into the arms of lying tyrants, rests in our technologies. A thousand years ago, a single individual held some hope of evading the tyrant and possibly even being capable of fighting off some of his agents. Today, small numbers of men are able to wield such power that the corrupted and cowardly meaner ends up with little incentive to choose either sense or courage.


Those who are unwilling to stoop to the lowest denominators of raw and undifferentiated political power, will be mastered by those who do not share that compunction.

At best, we might be able to pull off a small colony of liberty minded people, but even that rests deep in doubt. Consider NH - the FSP has not come even close to fulfilling its promises and by all appearances, it is not going to do so any time soon.

I don't see us as doing even the least of this. We are too far away from the sand needed to live as free men. Those at the top appear to be ever less inclined to tolerate even quietly cloistered groups who do not toe the line of the "state".

It could be I'm grossly mistaken about all of this - that Americans will one day soon rise to the freedom's call and dispatch the tyrants, well equipped for the aftermath such that we do not devolve into the next Chinese "cultural revolution. At the moment, I am nowhere near seeing this. We are slouching, or perhaps lurching, our ways to Gemmorah. We are destroyed, but most of us simply do not yet see it because their standards are so low. They look about themselves and assess the dreg they call their lives as something worth living. I pity and despise them all as they are wholly unworthy of the freedom that was bestowed upon them, part and parcel with their very lives and not some arbitrarily defined set of privileges loaned them by deign of the tyrant.

I am well willing to be convinced otherwise, but the dance will have to be quite extraordinary.

[Cleaner44]

We can start a petition

Petitions are worthless. I will be writing a strongly worded letter to my...

[phill4paul]

There are many independent nations smaller than the land mass of Rhode Island or Delaware. And, yet, I wonder, Osan, if given the opportunity without conflict, to hold that state free and clear, if we, those of like minds, could even populate it.

[dannno]

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

Everyone blames all the rotten people corrupting the society but I blame all the good people doing nothing about it including myself

[PAF]

Petitions are worthless. I will be writing a strongly worded letter to my...

So is your letter.

I just made a sign. I am going to hold it up above my head.

[PAF]

Agorist

As with voluntaryists, agorists typically oppose electoral voting and political reform and instead they stress the importance of alternative strategies outside political systems to achieve a free society. Agorists claim that such a society could be freed more readily by employing methods such as education, direct action, alternative currencies, entrepreneurship, self sufficiency, civil disobedience and counter-economics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agorism


All of which I attempt to practice on a daily basis. Some of it even rubs off onto those around me ;-)

[jllundqu]

We are not on our way, as a people, a culture, a statistical glob, to destruction. We are already there - we most of us just do not yet realize it.

I read and hear words of the "we need to X..." sort, whether from libertarians, antifa, socialists, or whatever other label you care to cough up. Those words are always vague in the sense that they say what must be done in the opinion of he who utters, yet never tell us how to do them, nor do they suggest in the least manner how we do them such that we do not end up in an equally horrible position in the aftermath, or worse.

On the whole, we humans are utterly horrible creatures, our short but blood-soaked history a vulgar and frank testament to the truth of the assertion. There is little to recommend us, which may well be the reason we have not heard from other worlds. Who in their right minds would place into human hands the technologies that take objects between star systems? We cannot even handle our own means, much less those of more capable beings.

Note how all the classical big-mouths of history have told us precisely how to "revolution", yet not a one has uttered so much as a single meaningful peep as to how to live with one another; how to structure ourselves in aftermath such that we do not become precisely that which we just killed off. It is all well and good to speak of "draining the swamp" and all it implies, but nobody is talking much about what to do after the gore has painted our streets and the walls of the capitols.

Forgetting the rest of the world, we Americans are "slouching our ways to Gemmorah", as my little bro is fond of saying. At best, we have vague notions of proper human relations; of what it means to live in accord with our birthrights as free men, and here I am being generous to an ill-reasoned fault. In truth and in deeper detail, we have little clue as to what it means to be free. We do not, in fact, recognize actual freedom as such and when confronted with it even as a theory, most of us recoil in fear, horror, disgust, and openly hostile, dripping, raving hatred.

We, the most of us, have neither the recognition of what life in accord with proper relations between men is, nor the inclination toward learning.

Therefore, we are already destroyed. The only step that remains to us is to acknowledge and accept that this is the case. Because we will not change how we are in sufficient measure as a statistical whole, the only thing we can do is wait for the end, because that is where we are heading, "end" not necessarily meaning extinction of the genus, but certainly the end of any condition that anyone with sense would consider worth the living. The few with aspirations even the most meekly adventurous beyond the corridors our apparent future shall define for us, will be consumed as such temerity will one day soon meet with zero-tolerance.

This is where we stand, and that is where we are going, all by our own choices; all because we chose false convenience and token fortune over that which is right and proper.

Enjoy what you may, because I suspect things are only going to get worse as we lurch forward into a future that is very likely not worth the living. Even if a man like Trump turns out fulfilling his promise to us, what about the day he leaves office? Who and what will fill the vacuum? If he were the savior - the great drainer of the swamp, so what? Are we cut of a cloth to inherit the improved America? I say not. Why? Because we were and are not of the fabric to do this work ourselves. We pimped our responsibilities off onto the shoulder of a "leader", demurring so pathetically from being leaders ourselves. We deserve nothing of our freedoms - not a whit of it, but rather only the degradations of the slaves that we have become precisely because we are filthy little cowards, addicted to the aforementioned conveniences, cheap and tawdry.

Yes, whoop it up while you can. Indulge yourselves in the pretty lies and bull$#@!, because it matters no whit - we are destroyed.

#Collapsitarian : I've been precisely here for some time.... what's fun is when you actively work for and encourage such a destruction as a necessary step forward, neverminding the costs. Sort of a "League of Shadows must burn it all down" mentality...

[Proph]

Defeatist?

Easy to say from behind your keyboard. But let me not be more "defeatist". Rather, let me ask this: how do you see we, the (maybe) 3% or perhaps 0.3%, proceeding to throw from our necks the vampires that have been feeding upon us for however many thousands of years? Please give details of such an operation - the nitty gritty.

Clicky clicky the linky linky for the nitty gritty.

Individuals working towards their own, personal ideas for freedom -- approaching the problem of statism from multiple angles -- will be more successful than any centralized, so-called "operation." (Your way seems to be motivation via pessimism, but depressed people generally aren't active!)

Politicians, police, and those that serve the State will never be held accountable for their wrongdoing, and attempting such via violence will only hurt more innocents. Most of these people probably believe in what they do. This belief absolves their conscience just long enough until they eventually become numbed cogs who accept that routine trespasses are necessary in order to serve their function. (Education will be more beneficial than roving, vigilante, kangaroo courts; but that rarely happens without communication, and people won't listen unless they respect you to some degree.)

I see the State eventually fading into obscurity via mockery and derision -- and memes! (There are so many "laws" on the books now, that one can't help but be civilly disobedient.)

[Zippyjuan]

We can start a petition

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/

[oyarde]

Everyone blames all the rotten people corrupting the society but I blame all the good people doing nothing about it including myself

Thing is about it all is that I have always known people are mostly rotten and what they do will be too . So the easiest path is to just insulate yourself from it . This is what I did before I even realized I was done . On the positive side , my culture is still intact in my empire and anyone coming here to do harm knows they will meet certain death . So , I can live with it .

[osan]

There are many independent nations smaller than the land mass of Rhode Island or Delaware. And, yet, I wonder, Osan, if given the opportunity without conflict, to hold that state free and clear, if we, those of like minds, could even populate it.

That's the $64 question and I'm not confident we could.

People like to talk. What they don't like very much is to do, especially if it involves risk. Hence, the world.

[osan]

Everyone blames all the rotten people corrupting the society but I blame all the good people doing nothing about it including myself

How good are we, really, that we do nothing? I'm not sure we're good at all.

It is easy to be good when the being is easy. It is notably more difficult to be good when to be so entails risk and real danger.

[osan]

Clicky clicky the linky linky for the nitty gritty.

I am at a loss. Your link didn't explain much of anything in terms of actual tactics.

Individuals working towards their own, personal ideas for freedom -- approaching the problem of statism from multiple angles -- will be more successful than any centralized, so-called "operation." (Your way seems to be motivation via pessimism, but depressed people generally aren't active!)

Uh huh. There are a few problems with this. Firstly, "personal ideas for freedom" is a nonsense. Consider that "lefties" generally regard "freedom" as the liberty to stick one's naughty bits where they want. They believe they should be free to get free stuff like birth control and abortions.

Without an objective definition of what it means to be properly free, we are going nowhere.

Regardless, I suggest you go to NYC, strap on a sidearm and go waltzing about, then get back to us about how it all worked out for you. Your idea, at least as I understood what you wrote, is woefully inadequate because men with guns will act against you with full willingness to murder you if you give them 1/1000000th of an invalid pretext for doing so.

Politicians, police, and those that serve the State will never be held accountable for their wrongdoing, and attempting such via violence will only hurt more innocents. Most of these people probably believe in what they do.

I see. You actually think that given how deep down the poo-hole we have gone that we will be able to reclaim our liberties without such costs? That's hopelessly naive.

I see the State eventually fading into obscurity via mockery and derision -- and memes! (There are so many "laws" on the books now, that one can't help but be civilly disobedient.)

You cannot be serious. This smacks of bunnies and light. This is not the way - not in the face of a "state" whose agents are more than happy to kill you for your transgressions.

[Proph]

You can't talk about freedom or liberty without discussing rights, and a reasonably objective definition was included in the other thread:

As long as your actions don’t harm another, consider it a right [or freedom]. Do you have a right [or freedom] to healthcare? Sure. Do you have a right [or freedom] to forcefully take others’ money to accomplish it? No! Lather, rinse, repeat for anything that is subsidized sans voluntary transactions.

Lefties might finally see the light if they had to commit the extortion themselves, rather than relying on the facade of voting and politics. (I'm tempted to quote Spooner's piece on highway robbery.)

I see. You actually think that given how deep down the poo-hole we have gone that we will be able to reclaim our liberties without such costs? That's hopelessly naive.

Violence begets violence. True, lasting change will occur via civil disobedience. What each person does when confronted by tyrants -- agents of the State, or not -- is ultimately up to him or her.

Besides declaring defeat and encouraging others to join your pity party, what is your personal plan? (Or, is that it?)

[Cleaner44]

So is your letter.

I just made a sign. I am going to hold it up above my head.

Signs don't work, unless you pair them with a catchy chant.

Fun Facts:
Chanting is what lead to the Boston Tea Party and oddly cracked the Liberty Bell!

[osan]

You can't talk about freedom or liberty without discussing rights, and a reasonably objective definition was included in the other thread:

Yes yes, that should probably go without saying. That has little to nothing to do with my question of practice in the real world. I mind my own business. I know some people who mind theirs. We are a distinct minority. Vast legions of people do not. The so-called "left" is most guilty of this, what with their busybody attitudes, but those on the "right" are by no means free of guilt there, either. The two differ only in the details. Lefties want to shove their queeer genitalia in your face and righties want to toss you into the death house for having an abortion. Once again, I side with the "right" more than left, but in terms of the salient qualities, saying one is better than the other is often a study in splitting splits of hairs.

Lefties might finally see the light if they had to commit the extortion themselves, rather than relying on the facade of voting and politics. (I'm tempted to quote Spooner's piece on highway robbery.)

Maybe, maybe not. Generally speaking, they are moral degenerates, so I put nothing past them. But once again, what has this to do with practices aimed at claiming our rights? Eliminate "government"? Sure. I'm 103.618% on board with that, but thus far there is zero indication that we are able to do it, not due so much to material limitations, but rather those of mind. Speaking statistically, our attitudes suck ass in a way perhaps never before seen in all human history. The people of Sodom and Gemmorah somehow seem to me virtuous in comparison with what we have become, the modern human race. It is disgusting to behold and there stands at best a vanishingly small chance that anyone, anywhere will be able to get the yoke of the tyrant off their necks because Theye hold great material power, as well as that over the minds of the legions of willing boobs who are all too eager to see Freemen destroyed for having the temerity and gall to embark on paths the Weakmen have not the courage to so much as consider.

That is the reality as we currently stand. I will likely never say there is no chance that this would change, but such a change would have to be so deeply disruptive as to place souls in immediate danger of imminent extinction. Thus far, most of humanity rests far enough from the edges of destruction - at least in their beliefs - that they will not be roused to change. This is our corrupt nature, or upbringing, or both and it is powerful and always working in the favor of clever tyrants whose absence of moral compunction leaves them free to tell whatever lies they feel they can pull off without significant consequence. The masses eat that $#@! up in always identical fashion, whether it's a stooge like Obama promising them "free" $#@!, or a Trump who, being marginally and palpably better - perhaps even greatly so - still poses the tyrant's hazard precisely because we, the dumbass masses, step away from our responsibilities to ourselves and each other to be governors and leaders. Nowhere nearly enough of us assume those personal responsibilities such that there is little to no chance that small groups of individuals are able to usurp and abuse as they have been since this republic was founded. If those behaviors became immediately and perhaps terminally hazardous to those holding various office, the would-be tyrants would remain as such, rather than graduating to actual-tyrant status through the usual chain of obedience.

But all that requires warrior culture, and we are nowhere nearly that. And so I reiterate: hence, the world. We are über-copulated. The tyrant's mega-dong lives in our backsides and every day he pushes a smidge more deeply as we sit in idle, inert tolerance.

Violence begets violence.

While often true, it is not universally so. Sometimes violence is precisely what is needed to settle an issue. But once again, being the willfully corrupt creatures we tend to be, we also fail to know when to call quits. We do this again and again, seemingly never learning the lessons of our rotten forebears. We are given every day the opportunities to be better than they were and better than we were... and we turn our backs to them every time. This is why my optimism for humanity's future is all but extinguished.

True, lasting change will occur via civil disobedience.

And once again I repeat the question: In a world that can barely get two people to agree on what to have for dinner much of the time, how do you propose to get tens of millions of people to adopt habits of disobedience? How do you protect the ones who are picked off in piecemeal fashion by those government agents (police, etc.) on whose side time and patience rests? If tomorrow Congress passed a law banning all civilian firearms and SCOTUS upheld it as constitutional, do you think Theye would go on a rampaging door-to-door campaign to confiscate? No. Theye would selectively enforce the new law with the knowledge that in time, whether a decade or a millennium, the guns would eventually be reduced to such low numbers that those remaining would constitute a non-threat to the standing hegemony.

What each person does when confronted by tyrants -- agents of the State, or not -- is ultimately up to him or her.

Agreed, and in American when the Man commands "$#@!!", the mean American squats with not so much as a thought. The response is just this side of reflexive. These are the people in whom you are placing your trust. I submit that this is in no way sound thinking, absent some disturbance in the fabric of their daily lives so deep as to leave them with a most immediate sense of "nothing to lose". That certainly could happen, but as of this writing, there is nothing to suggest that any such thing may be reasonably expected, leaving we the Few in the position of being bent over the wood in prep for the next big BOHICA event.

Besides declaring defeat and encouraging others to join your pity party, what is your personal plan? (Or, is that it?)

We ARE defeated and shall remain so until such time as that critical mass decides that enough is enough. Tell us - do you see such a mass as being achieved in your lifetime, and if so, upon what do you base the optimism? If not, then everything you have written has been jotted without any point beyond the jotting.

Pity party? You assume too much and are wholly mistaken in this perception. I am making a clear observation of facts that has yet to be refuted. Your civil disobedience argument is valid, and yet it is not being realized in any degree or manner worthy of the mention. Antifa and all the other similarly idiotic derpoids are engaging in such disobedience. Note the central importance of doing the right sorts of disobedience and holding the right goals in disobeying. All those little $#@!s succeed at is buring cars, beating old people, and stopping traffic as they shriek and moan their clapped out slogans about "white supremacy" and so forth. They have accomplished little, and not a whit of it anything good.

Valid as it may be, it remains fuzzy in terms of detail. What should people be doing in specific in order defy the false authority of "government", and what should they do in the cases where that false authority is trained upon a given individual and unleashed to his a lost certainly serious detriment and possible death?

You decry violence, but the truth of this matter boils down to precisely that. The "state" has proven itself at every stinking turn to be not just willing, but eager to engage in violence of any sort or degree in order to make its points. Unless we are willing and ready, however reticently, to bring potentially terminal violence to the state's house in response to theirs, your otherwise valid assertions about civil disobedience would come to naught because I assure you Theye will in fact murder you and your family if they deem it necessary pursuant to their ability to maintain dominion over you, regardless of that dominion's public face. They would butcher us by the literal millions if it proved the only way for them and they would lose no iota of sleep over it. The only way your good vision of civil disobedience succeeds is when the critical mass is achieved and it poses an immediate existential threat to those who dare interfere. Without the threat of the most dire consequences, what pray you tell us is Theire incentive for not destroying those who disobey, regardless of the numbers?

[Proph]

Without the threat of the most dire consequences, what pray you tell us is Theire incentive for not destroying those who disobey, regardless of the numbers?

The veil of ignorance becomes lifted -- and the benevolent facade shattered -- once the pretense of justice is abandoned completely. Only after enough people are abused will "critical mass" be achieved. (But without understanding the philosophy of liberty, we could potentially become a nation of Winstons perpetually living in 1984.)

Maybe we just view the intent differently. You seem to believe that most who work for government are out to get you, while I think we're witnessing the unintended consequences of well-meaning busy-bodies. (Busy-bodies who often suffer no repercussions themselves for overstepping boundaries.)

I might address some of the other points in your post later. (It seems like you haven't read much of what I've written.)

[Proph]

Maybe, maybe not. Generally speaking, they are moral degenerates, so I put nothing past them. But once again, what has this to do with practices aimed at claiming our rights? Eliminate "government"? Sure. I'm 103.618% on board with that, but thus far there is zero indication that we are able to do it, not due so much to material limitations, but rather those of mind. Speaking statistically, our attitudes suck ass in a way perhaps never before seen in all human history. The people of Sodom and Gemmorah somehow seem to me virtuous in comparison with what we have become, the modern human race. It is disgusting to behold and there stands at best a vanishingly small chance that anyone, anywhere will be able to get the yoke of the tyrant off their necks because Theye hold great material power, as well as that over the minds of the legions of willing boobs who are all too eager to see Freemen destroyed for having the temerity and gall to embark on paths the Weakmen have not the courage to so much as consider.

Governments will always exist in some form or another. Most of these "moral degenerates" do not recognize their actions -- participating in politics; asking others to steal on their behalf -- as harmful. They can't avoid the implications of their philosophy as easily when they experience it firsthand, though. I doubt that many of them would have the mettle to persist in these abuses, especially when they can no longer put on a costume that magically makes them safe; or, wear the veil that hides the consequences of their decisions. (Plus, you can defend yourself from an individual or smaller group more successfully than against a Leviathan!)

And once again I repeat the question: In a world that can barely get two people to agree on what to have for dinner much of the time, how do you propose to get tens of millions of people to adopt habits of disobedience? How do you protect the ones who are picked off in piecemeal fashion by those government agents (police, etc.) on whose side time and patience rests? If tomorrow Congress passed a law banning all civilian firearms and SCOTUS upheld it as constitutional, do you think Theye would go on a rampaging door-to-door campaign to confiscate? No. Theye would selectively enforce the new law with the knowledge that in time, whether a decade or a millennium, the guns would eventually be reduced to such low numbers that those remaining would constitute a non-threat to the standing hegemony.

I see the State eventually fading into obscurity via mockery and derision -- and memes! (There are so many "laws" on the books now, that one can't help but be civilly disobedient.)

Once enough people travel through the penal system -- which is inevitable when everyone inadvertently commits 3 felonies a day, supposedly -- you'll get the "warrior culture" you desire. Education and exposure of the selective nature of this enforcement are far more beneficial than Middle-Eastern-like preemptive strikes on those who might attack you. (The State -- this vague term includes not just governments, but other associates like the media as well -- will use any violence leveraged against its operatives as an excuse to become even more violent. Properly exercised self defense -- instead of bastardized interpretations like you might hear from "antifa" -- is much harder to spin.)

Agreed, and in American when the Man commands "$#@!!", the mean American squats with not so much as a thought. The response is just this side of reflexive. These are the people in whom you are placing your trust. I submit that this is in no way sound thinking, absent some disturbance in the fabric of their daily lives so deep as to leave them with a most immediate sense of "nothing to lose". That certainly could happen, but as of this writing, there is nothing to suggest that any such thing may be reasonably expected, leaving we the Few in the position of being bent over the wood in prep for the next big BOHICA event.



We ARE defeated and shall remain so until such time as that critical mass decides that enough is enough. Tell us - do you see such a mass as being achieved in your lifetime, and if so, upon what do you base the optimism? If not, then everything you have written has been jotted without any point beyond the jotting.

Pity party? You assume too much and are wholly mistaken in this perception. I am making a clear observation of facts that has yet to be refuted. Your civil disobedience argument is valid, and yet it is not being realized in any degree or manner worthy of the mention. Antifa and all the other similarly idiotic derpoids are engaging in such disobedience. Note the central importance of doing the right sorts of disobedience and holding the right goals in disobeying. All those little $#@!s succeed at is buring cars, beating old people, and stopping traffic as they shriek and moan their clapped out slogans about "white supremacy" and so forth. They have accomplished little, and not a whit of it anything good.

Valid as it may be, it remains fuzzy in terms of detail. What should people be doing in specific in order defy the false authority of "government", and what should they do in the cases where that false authority is trained upon a given individual and unleashed to his a lost certainly serious detriment and possible death?

You decry violence, but the truth of this matter boils down to precisely that. The "state" has proven itself at every stinking turn to be not just willing, but eager to engage in violence of any sort or degree in order to make its points. Unless we are willing and ready, however reticently, to bring potentially terminal violence to the state's house in response to theirs, your otherwise valid assertions about civil disobedience would come to naught because I assure you Theye will in fact murder you and your family if they deem it necessary pursuant to their ability to maintain dominion over you, regardless of that dominion's public face. They would butcher us by the literal millions if it proved the only way for them and they would lose no iota of sleep over it. The only way your good vision of civil disobedience succeeds is when the critical mass is achieved and it poses an immediate existential threat to those who dare interfere. Without the threat of the most dire consequences, what pray you tell us is Theire incentive for not destroying those who disobey, regardless of the numbers?

I believe this "critical mass" is closer than you think, but its nature is entirely different than what you predict.

[osan]

The veil of ignorance becomes lifted -- and the benevolent facade shattered -- once the pretense of justice is abandoned completely. Only after enough people are abused will "critical mass" be achieved. (But without understanding the philosophy of liberty, we could potentially become a nation of Winstons perpetually living in 1984.)

D00d, that veil was lifted long years ago and the internet makes available endless sources of valid truth regarding the right ways by which to live among one's fellows. The Meaner not only ignores it all, he vehemently rejects it with the shrieking venom of the terrified. He would sooner see his mother sold into a nunnery than so much as think about proper human relations as must certainly differ from his corrupted version of same. So long as he is allowed to put his inadequate pecker where he pleases, consent be damned, and is praised for doing so, the rest of his inborn freedoms can rot for all he cares. I witness this truth every day.

For several months in 2015 I was returned to the air at WTSQ in Charleston WV. The majority of the staff there are typical hard-left sorts and hated with venom anything that smacked of freedom beyond the narrow, timid, and paltry limits to which they had been broken and trained. When I described proper human freedom, I would nearly bet money I do not have that had some authority given Michael Early leave to shoot me dead on the spot and the gun with which to do it, he would have at least seriously considered pulling the trigger. He is a typical left-leaning degenerate who could not shut it about how he spent a decade as a heroin addict, thinking that this made him "edgy", when in fact it only made him out as a blithering idiot. But everyone else, beside a handful of us, praised him and... well, just wow... This is the stupidity that ranges freely from sea to shining sea and which is regarded as some sort of virtue.

Maybe we just view the intent differently. You seem to believe that most who work for government are out to get you, while I think we're witnessing the unintended consequences of well-meaning busy-bodies. (Busy-bodies who often suffer no repercussions themselves for overstepping boundaries.)

Most who work in "government" are nothing more than useful idiots and moral cowards who have not the sand nor fabric to refuse the felonious orders issued to them by their superiors. Remember Nürnberg, where "vee ver only follovink ohduz" failed to save the criminals from the gallows? Whatever happened to the moral courage that put nooses around those deserving necks? Today, a cop murders, claims he was following orders or was afeared, and he skates. The same may be said of many other agents of the Tyrant. Deep is the doodoo in which we find ourselves. We could get ourselves out in a matter of days or, at most, weeks. But no... we choose to rest idly in the face of murderous tyranny. That's on each and every one of us.

[TheTexan]

Deep is the doodoo in which we find ourselves. We could get ourselves out in a matter of days or, at most, weeks. But no... we choose to rest idly in the face of murderous tyranny. That's on each and every one of us.

Things aren't that bad.

Government only takes roughly 50% of everything ever earned, through 1000's of different taxes.

Things could be a lot worse.

I mean, we could have Guatemalans illegally crossing the border.

Now that would be a disaster.

[osan]

Governments will always exist in some form or another. Most of these "moral degenerates" do not recognize their actions -- participating in politics; asking others to steal on their behalf -- as harmful.

Does their failure to recognize excuse or otherwise validate the actions?

A man rushes toward you with a gun yelling "this is where you die". He thinks he is in the right, seeing no harm. What do YOU do - stand idly to see how things play out, or do you take action? This is exactly what happened to me on 6/3 when a truck driver on I-64 threatened to murder my wife and myself. He waved a Glock at us, then got out of his truck, approached us, say "this is where you die", and then walked right up to the front of our vehicle, at which point I'd had quite enough of threats and proceeded to run him over with the Subaru. His intentions were irrelevant. His threats, however, were not and I took action with my primary weapon.

They can't avoid the implications of their philosophy as easily when they experience it firsthand, though. I doubt that many of them would have the mettle to persist in these abuses, especially when they can no longer put on a costume that magically makes them safe; or, wear the veil that hides the consequences of their decisions. (Plus, you can defend yourself from an individual or smaller group more successfully than against a Leviathan!)

We agree, but the fact is that they currently face no consequence that dissuades, which is why they continue to misbehave.

Once enough people travel through the penal system -- which is inevitable when everyone inadvertently commits 3 felonies a day, supposedly -- you'll get the "warrior culture" you desire

.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Assuming it is so, it is quite clear that we are nowhere nearly having put enough through said system. So what now?

Education and exposure of the selective nature of this enforcement are far more beneficial than Middle-Eastern-like preemptive strikes on those who might attack you.

You persist in making this brand of claim, yet no less than twenty years of internet communications have as yet failed to produce the results you claim. One can no longer credibly assert that awareness is lacking. Awareness not to the liking of the beholder is being vehemently rejected. People are not interested in truths that chafe, and so they call it "lies" and do what humans have always done.

(The State -- this vague term includes not just governments, but other associates like the media as well -- will use any violence leveraged against its operatives as an excuse to become even more violent. Properly exercised self defense -- instead of bastardized interpretations like you might hear from "antifa" -- is much harder to spin.)

Maybe. The ignorance is now so deep and widespread, it appears that no amount of state transgression will rouse the rest to your much vaunted civil disobedience. If the trespass we now endure is not enough to give cause, then pray you tell what amount is? How far must the American people be debased before they say "ENOUGH!"? Thus far, we are laid low and show no indication of refusal. This bodes poorly.

I believe this "critical mass" is closer than you think, but its nature is entirely different than what you predict.

It could well be, I acknowledge, but there is little to no indication of it. That may just be the nature of these sorts of things... but equally so it may not be. Since neither of us have lived through such times before, I will suggest that neither of us have sufficient basis for prediction beyond mere speculation. In my favor, however, rests the long history of human corruption that has lead to the rise of countless tyrants whose trickery has remained unchanged for thousands of years, yet has worked like a charm every time. We fail to learn from the errors of our forebears precisely because to do so requires too much effort and risk. Any wiggle room that allows for rationalizing our lassitude, cowardice, and greed is made full use with a predictability that leaves "chance" as a non-factor. Humans are rotten creatures in this regard and currently show no sign of improvement. Were this not the case, I daresay that the likes of Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, Mao, Pot, and so on would never have been possible, just as the Tsars, kings, and emperors would not have in times longer past because Freemen would have slaughtered them and their families in erasure of the stain upon what would have been the good name of humanity those bloodlines represented. There would have been real and horrific consequences in store for any and all men daring to stand in violation of their fellows. But no - we have consistently demurred of our responsibilities to our freedoms, acceding to the felonious mandates of men with no more authority to rule YOU than does a cockroach possess.

I do not believe you will be able to slice this pie in a way that paints us in any better a light, but please do give it a whirl. Once again, I am open to persuasion, but the argument must be a good one.

[Proph]

D00d, that veil was lifted long years ago and the internet makes available endless sources of valid truth regarding the right ways by which to live among one's fellows. The Meaner not only ignores it all, he vehemently rejects it with the shrieking venom of the terrified. He would sooner see his mother sold into a nunnery than so much as think about proper human relations as must certainly differ from his corrupted version of same. So long as he is allowed to put his inadequate pecker where he pleases, consent be damned, and is praised for doing so, the rest of his inborn freedoms can rot for all he cares. I witness this truth every day.

"The Meaner's" ignorance will eventually catch up with them. (I used to think that your "Themme" and "Theye" approach was useful, even revolutionary, but thinking like this for too long encourages collectivist tendencies.)

For several months in 2015 I was returned to the air at WTSQ in Charleston WV. The majority of the staff there are typical hard-left sorts and hated with venom anything that smacked of freedom beyond the narrow, timid, and paltry limits to which they had been broken and trained. When I described proper human freedom, I would nearly bet money I do not have that had some authority given Michael Early leave to shoot me dead on the spot and the gun with which to do it, he would have at least seriously considered pulling the trigger. He is a typical left-leaning degenerate who could not shut it about how he spent a decade as a heroin addict, thinking that this made him "edgy", when in fact it only made him out as a blithering idiot. But everyone else, beside a handful of us, praised him and... well, just wow... This is the stupidity that ranges freely from sea to shining sea and which is regarded as some sort of virtue.

Most who work in "government" are nothing more than useful idiots and moral cowards who have not the sand nor fabric to refuse the felonious orders issued to them by their superiors. Remember Nürnberg, where "vee ver only follovink ohduz" failed to save the criminals from the gallows? Whatever happened to the moral courage that put nooses around those deserving necks? Today, a cop murders, claims he was following orders or was afeared, and he skates. The same may be said of many other agents of the Tyrant. Deep is the doodoo in which we find ourselves. We could get ourselves out in a matter of days or, at most, weeks. But no... we choose to rest idly in the face of murderous tyranny. That's on each and every one of us.

Translated: "Violence will solve the problem!"

What happens when Theye think the same thing about you? Your implicit calls to action violate natural law as much as any tyrant's, and could easily be interpreted as a threat. Thumping your chest only exacerbates the situation. (You sound like Bolton, Pompeo, and company attempting regime change: "It'll be quick, a matter of days or weeks at most!" We all know that plans never go so smoothly, and you ought to by now, too.)