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Thread: Amash is Wrong, Pelosi (So Far…) is Right on Articles of Impeachment

  1. #1

    Amash is Wrong, Pelosi (So Far…) is Right on Articles of Impeachment

    Amash is Wrong, Pelosi (So Far…) is Right on Articles of Impeachment
    written by peter van buren - monday may 27, 2019

    Even as House Speaker Nancy Pelosi tries to put impeachment talk on the back burner within her own party, Justin Amash became the first Republican Congressman to call for it. This weekend on Twitter, as the Founders intended, Amash wrote “Mueller’s report identifies multiple examples of conduct satisfying all the elements of obstruction of justice, and undoubtedly any person who is not the president of the United States would be indicted based on such evidence.”

    Amash goes on to say impeachment simply requires “an official has engaged in careless, abusive, corrupt, or otherwise dishonorable conduct.”

    Of course tweets are not Articles of Impeachment to be voted on, Mueller’s Report specifically does not indict Trump for obstruction, the Report does not state the reason for not indicting Trump is because he is president, and the Constitution does not include “careless, abusive, corrupt, or otherwise dishonorable conduct” as grounds for impeachment.

    People may not like any of that, but those are the starting and ending points on impeachment and simply repeating an alternate version cannot change things. So this all may be little more than grandstanding by Amash.

    But alongside Amash’s tweets are dozens of similar bleats from politicians and blasts from the media demanding Trump be impeached. Cheerleaders gloat impeachment isn’t a judicial process but a “political” one, their main takeaway being less rigorous standards apply (Amash stated there is no obligation to show even probable cause a crime was committed to impeach, you can just accuse willy-nilly) and somehow that’s a good thing. Many express near-joy the constitutional requirement for impeachment, “high crimes and misdemeanors,” isn’t defined in the law so it can be anything a partisan House wants it to be heading into an election. Somehow that’s also a good thing for a democracy they otherwise see under threat.

    What the calls for impeachment show in amplitude they lack in detail, the specifics Trump must be impeached for. You know, like when a case goes to court instead of when one is trying to make headlines? The so-called best versions, as with Amash, simply refer back to Mueller’s own didn’t-reach-indictment non-conclusions and leave it there, as if the Report says something clearly it does not even say obliquely. The worst ramble about the end of democracy, damage to the Constitution, corruption, and cite the libretto from Hamilton as their snappy summation. What they all do, from Amash to Trevor Noah, is rely on assumed agreement with their audience Trump is guilty. Of something.

    The only specific pseudo-justification comes from a sub-group who kinda admits the Mueller “road map” is a bit fuzzy on actual guilt, but who sees impeachment proceedings as some sort of super-investigative process that would take another shot at finding chargeable crimes.
    ...
    After the Report showed there was no collusion or conspiracy with the Russkies, the Democrats and media pivoted as one, literally overnight, claiming (failed) obstruction of a Report which cleared Trump of treason, that was the real crime all along. The only problem was the Report did not support obstruction as grounds for impeachment either. So in a wink of an eye, the new plan was for the House to subpoena documents, call witnesses, and conduct a re-investigation into whatever it was Mueller failed to uncover.

    This belief in the investigative magic of the House ignores the vast powers already brought to bear, including the surveillance which proceeded Mueller’s work and provided the fodder for those early perjury traps against Flynn, Papadopoulos, et al. Mueller used the threat of jail time to pressure people into cooperating, in the end producing little actionable material. The House thinking it will find the smoking gun Mueller missed also ignores the entrapment ops the FBI ran against the Trump campaign, which also produced little beyond excuses for more surveillance.

    The Democratic/media actions post-Report — making up their own versions of what Mueller meant to say — beg the question of why not just ask Bob Mueller? The White House is not blocking his testimony, and the House has not subpoenaed him. Still, no testimony is scheduled while “negotiations” take place between Mueller and the Committees. For a nation supposedly in crisis there doesn’t seem to be too much of a rush. The Report has been out for close to two months.

    Or maybe Democrats are not in a hurry to call Mueller because they don’t want to hear him answer why he did not indict anyone new. Maybe Dems don’t want to have Mueller say how early he realized the Steele Dossierwas garbage but still kept silent? Maybe Dems don’t want Mueller talking about the origins of the Russia investigation? Maybe the Dems really don’t want Mueller to testify at all. Leave him off-stage, where they can put words into his mouth.
    ...
    Impeachment is also not a way to bypass other investigative tools to allow a partisan House to poke around inside a president’s decisions, pre-election business deals, and personal life, or to amass info short of actual impeachable evidence as campaign dirt on the public dollar.
    ...
    Nancy Pelosi is right to put the brakes on impeachment. Not because of some political calculation, but because turning the Constitution’s provision for over-turning an election into a hunt for dirt, or as a way around the check and balances of the courts, chips away at the foundation of democracy.

    BONUS

    I admire Amash for his principles. So I would very much welcome him laying out reasons for his opinion Trump committed an impeachable offense in obstructing justice, a conclusion Mueller, Barr, and Rosenstein did not reach. All Amash did was send out a couple of tweets. I, too, have read the whole Report, as have many others, and do not see chargeable crimes. So Amash needs to do more than tweet a conclusion because the clarity he sees in the Report text is not shared widely enough to allow him to just say trust me on this.

    Amash in his tweets also criticizing the Attorney General for writing a misleading summary of the Report. This is weak.
    ...
    More: http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/arch...f-impeachment/
    Last edited by Brian4Liberty; 05-27-2019 at 11:34 AM.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
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  3. #2
    This weekend on Twitter, as the Founders intended, Amash wrote “Mueller’s report identifies multiple examples of conduct satisfying all the elements of obstruction of justice, and undoubtedly any person who is not the president of the United States would be indicted based on such evidence.”
    This story was posted today on the front page of The Ron Paul Institute, but the above line saying “this weekend” makes it sound like the article was written (or at least started) about a week ago.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  4. #3
    Bump
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

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    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
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    A Zero Hedge comment

  5. #4
    Is it true that something as arbitrary as "careless conduct" can lead to impeachment proceedings? Is this one of those 66.6%+ thingies?

    What would have stopped Ron Paul from being impeached?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
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  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Is it true that something as arbitrary as "careless conduct" can lead to impeachment proceedings? Is this one of those 66.6%+ thingies?

    What would have stopped Ron Paul from being impeached?
    What a real world question... Absolutely, "careless conduct" could be anything they just don't happen to like. Guilty or not, Ron Paul would have had to battle this from both sides throughout his whole term. It would have tied his hands and he would not been able to keep one promise he made to those who voted him in.
    “The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world it leaves to its children.” ~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer

  7. #6
    the Constitution does not include “careless, abusive, corrupt, or otherwise dishonorable conduct” as grounds for impeachment
    Yes it does. These are high crimes and misdemeanors.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Yes it does. These are high crimes and misdemeanors.
    No, they are not.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ATruepatriot View Post
    What a real world question... Absolutely, "careless conduct" could be anything they just don't happen to like. Guilty or not, Ron Paul would have had to battle this from both sides throughout his whole term. It would have tied his hands and he would not been able to keep one promise he made to those who voted him in.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ATruepatriot again.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    No, they are not.
    If you accept that the words of the Constitution mean what they were understood to mean by those who ratified it, then those things are what the phrase "high crimes and misdemeanors" meant. The difference between high crimes and misdemeanors and ordinary crimes and misdemeanors is precisely that high crimes and misdemeanors were understood to include the things listed in that quote.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ATruepatriot View Post
    What a real world question... Absolutely, "careless conduct" could be anything they just don't happen to like. Guilty or not, Ron Paul would have had to battle this from both sides throughout his whole term. It would have tied his hands and he would not been able to keep one promise he made to those who voted him in.
    Be that as it may, it doesn't change the fact that what Amash said is objectively a true statement about the constitutional grounds for impeachment.

    Of course in practice, as many have already observed, impeachment is ultimately a political exercise anyway. So the question of whether or not to impeach a president always has and always will boil down to whether or not it is politically advantageous for the majority of the members of the House of Representatives.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    If you accept that the words of the Constitution mean what they were understood to mean by those who ratified it, then those things are what the phrase "high crimes and misdemeanors" meant. The difference between high crimes and misdemeanors and ordinary crimes and misdemeanors is precisely that high crimes and misdemeanors were understood to include the things listed in that quote.
    No, that turns the word "high" on its head.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Be that as it may, it doesn't change the fact that what Amash said is objectively a true statement about the constitutional grounds for impeachment.

    Of course in practice, as many have already observed, impeachment is ultimately a political exercise anyway. So the question of whether or not to impeach a president always has and always will boil down to whether or not it is politically advantageous for the majority of the members of the House of Representatives.
    Amash's statement is objectively untrue.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    No, they are not.
    Yes they are; those are violations of the President's oath of office.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    No, that turns the word "high" on its head.
    By all means, look into this and see for yourself.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_c...d_misdemeanors

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Yes they are; those are violations of the President's oath of office.
    That isn't an impeachable offense.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That isn't an impeachable offense.
    That's possibly the stupidest thing you've ever said, and that is an extremely high bar.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    By all means, look into this and see for yourself.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_c...d_misdemeanors
    In any case Trump's behavior doesn't qualify, certainly not more than O'Bummer whom Amash didn't want to impeach and any replacement will be worse.

    Amash is wrong and he is making himself party to treason.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That isn't an impeachable offense.
    Violating the oath of office isn't an impeachable offense?

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    That's possibly the stupidest thing you've ever said, and that is an extremely high bar.
    No more than the arguments in favor of impeaching Trump or the claim that he has done those things.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Violating the oath of office isn't an impeachable offense?
    Trump hasn't done that, blurring the definitions of words until they all merge together so that "I don't like what you did" becomes an "impeachable offense" and a "violation of the oath of office" is intellectually dishonest.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Trump hasn't done that, blurring the definitions of words until they all merge together so that "I don't like what you did" becomes an "impeachable offense" and a "violation of the oath of office" is intellectually dishonest.
    1) Trump has violated his oath of office on many occasions.
    2) The question of whether Trump had done that wasn't what we were debating at that point in this thread. We were talking about whether the phrase "high crimes and misdemeanors" as used in the Constitution included that.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Be that as it may, it doesn't change the fact that what Amash said is objectively a true statement about the constitutional grounds for impeachment.

    Of course in practice, as many have already observed, impeachment is ultimately a political exercise anyway. So the question of whether or not to impeach a president always has and always will boil down to whether or not it is politically advantageous for the majority of the members of the House of Representatives.
    The House of Representatives cannot impeach him, Only the Senate can impeach someone and only if they decide to even take up the matter. and to date this has never happened yet. This is all nothing but a distraction and an obstruction and you have fallen for it. " it doesn't change the fact that what Amash said is objectively a true statement about the constitutional grounds for impeachment." How do you know? have you seen a list of what the hell Amash is even talking about yet? Until we see what he is talking about it is all hearsay no matter who said it.

    Key Takeaways: Impeachment Process

    The process of impeachment is established by the U.S. Constitution.

    The impeachment process must be initiated in the House of Representatives with the passage of a resolution listing the charges or “Articles of Impeachment” against the official being impeached.

    If passed by the House, the Articles of Impeachment are considered by the Senate in a trial presided over by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, with the 100 Senators serving as the jury.

    If the Senate votes in favor of conviction by a 2/3 supermajority vote (67 votes), the Senate will then vote to remove the official from office.

    Presidential impeachment may be the last thing you would ever think could happen in America. In fact, since 1841, over one-third of all American Presidents have either died in office, became disabled, or resigned. However, no American President has ever been forced from office due to impeachment.



    Only four times in our history has Congress held serious discussions of presidential impeachment:

    Andrew Johnson was actually impeached when Congress became unhappy with the way he was dealing with some post-Civil War matters, but Johnson was acquitted in the Senate by one vote and remained in office.

    Congress introduced a resolution to impeach John Tyler over state's rights issues, but the resolution failed.

    Congress was debating his impeachment over the Watergate break-in when President Richard Nixon resigned.

    William J. Clinton was impeached by the House on charges of perjury and obstruction of justice in relation to his affair with White House intern Monica Lewinsky. Clinton was eventually acquitted by the Senate.

    https://www.thoughtco.com/impeachmen...rocess-3322171
    “The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world it leaves to its children.” ~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by ATruepatriot View Post
    The House of Representatives cannot impeach him, Only the Senate can impeach someone
    You got that backwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATruepatriot View Post
    How do you know? have you seen a list of what the hell Amash is even talking about yet? Until we see what he is talking about it is all hearsay no matter who said it.
    The OP says this:
    Amash goes on to say impeachment simply requires “an official has engaged in careless, abusive, corrupt, or otherwise dishonorable conduct.”
    What the OP attributes to Amash there is an objectively true statement, regardless of whether or not Amash is right that Trump is guilty of those things.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 05-27-2019 at 04:37 PM.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    You got that backwards.



    The OP says this:


    What the OP attributes to Amash there is an objectively true statement, regardless of whether or not Amash is right that Trump is guilty of those things.
    Hearsay based on one man's personal perspective.
    “The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world it leaves to its children.” ~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Trump hasn't done that, blurring the definitions of words until they all merge together so that "I don't like what you did" becomes an "impeachable offense" and a "violation of the oath of office" is intellectually dishonest.
    Your defense of your own claim lasted exactly 10 minutes before you started squirming and using weasel words instead of addressing the point.



    Might be a new record.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  30. #26
    Pelosi isn't even 80 yet and looks like she's 90
    A savage barbaric tribal society where thugs parade the streets and illegally assault and murder innocent civilians, yeah that is the alternative to having police. Oh wait, that is the police

    We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.
    - Edward R. Murrow

    ...I think we have moral obligations to disobey unjust laws, because non-cooperation with evil is as much as a moral obligation as cooperation with good. - MLK Jr.

    How to trigger a liberal: "I didn't get vaccinated."

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by ATruepatriot View Post
    Hearsay based on one man's personal perspective.
    I was under the impression that the author of the article in the OP was quoting what Amash had said in a tweet.

    I haven't checked it. But is that not correct? Because if so, then it's not hearsay. It's quoting something Amash said publicly that can be verified.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    I was under the impression that the author of the article in the OP was quoting what Amash had said in a tweet.

    I haven't checked it. But is that not correct? Because if so, then it's not hearsay. It's quoting something Amash said publicly that can be verified.
    Yes that is accurate. Still just hearsay based on one man's perspective, Amash. And yet I publicly quoted even Ron Paul in the other thread and you call that just hearsay and unacceptable.
    “The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world it leaves to its children.” ~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by ATruepatriot View Post
    Yes that is accurate. Still just hearsay based on one man's perspective, Amash. And yet I publicly quoted even Ron Paul in the other thread and you call that just hearsay and unacceptable.
    When did you quote Ron Paul and I called it hearsay? I don't remember that ever happening.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    When did you quote Ron Paul and I called it hearsay? I don't remember that ever happening.
    You spent a lot of time trying to tell me that what I supplied from Ron Paul was not what he really meant. In other words you imply that what I supplied was just hearsay and not his real position.
    “The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world it leaves to its children.” ~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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