Rand says Amash wrong to call for Trump's impeachment.

[PursuePeace]

Good luck advancing liberty. One term, no allies, no advancement of liberty would be your political results.

Exactly.

[TER]

Good luck advancing liberty. One term, no allies, no advancement of liberty would be your political results.

The reality in this fallen world is that impeaching Trump for obstruction when he was basically entrapped because of an illegal witch hunt (if he actually even did obstruct) does nothing to advance liberty. It’s results are probably Joe Biden in the White House. Would this be acceptable for Amash? Would such a result be worth it? Absolutely not, and that is why Rand is the smarter person in this instance and I am happy he is taking a stand against Justin in this (which I know probably wasn’t easy for him to do).

[ATruepatriot]

The reality in this fallen world is that impeaching Trump for obstruction when he was basically entrapped because of an illegal witch hunt (if he actually even did obstruct) does nothing to advance liberty. It’s results are probably Joe Biden in the White House. Would this be acceptable for Amash? Would such a result be worth it? Absolutely not, and that is why Rand is the smarter person in this instance and I am happy he is taking a stand against Justin in this (which I know probably wasn’t easy for him to do).

Common sense reality.

[samforpaul]

Vote the Record, Not the Rhetoric

May I use that quote?
Well put.

[nikcers]

Anything? So because of the impropriety of the investigation Trump has a blank check to do anything at all, no matter what it is, and as long as it's a result of this investigation it's automatically ok?

Can't you consider the possibility that Amash could both oppose the "government boot" that you see at work in this investigation and also oppose Trump's response to it without any inconsistency?

They deliberately ignored the constitution by using a FISA warrant, a lower than constitutional court that is for foreigners, on Americans. I don't care what the $#@! it is, they do not need to make it normal to treat Americans like foreigners this is exactly what they said they wouldn't do when they created the $#@!ing patriot act.

[juleswin]

The reality in this fallen world is that impeaching Trump for obstruction when he was basically entrapped because of an illegal witch hunt (if he actually even did obstruct) does nothing to advance liberty. It’s results are probably Joe Biden in the White House. Would this be acceptable for Amash? Would such a result be worth it? Absolutely not, and that is why Rand is the smarter person in this instance and I am happy he is taking a stand against Justin in this (which I know probably wasn’t easy for him to do).

How was Trump entraped and how did his "obstructing" justice help? He was innocent all along and he did not have to do anything to evade this investigation.

[devil21]

To use one of Rand's most used lines, "the interesting thing is," Rand's remarks should show this forum that opinions differ. Rand just said Amash was wrong. Okay. Some members here chastise people for saying Amash was wrong. Maybe Ron will go on record saying Amash was right. So when two lovers of liberty disagree, who is right? Is that when chaos and civil wars break out?

They're just opinions from people and don't have to be "right" or "wrong". See my sig line about politicians. I remember when RPF was bustling back in the day, full of people posting different opinions on topics, but we all pretty much agreed that governments have grown to control way too many aspects of life. "Right" or "wrong" wasn't of much importance. But the media and other foot soldiers have since worked very hard to break that down and reinstall the right/wrong - black/white false paradigms. Right/wrong is the foundation of divide and conquer.

[nikcers]

How was Trump entraped and how did his "obstructing" justice help? He was innocent all along and he did not have to do anything to evade this investigation.

So if you are innocent you don't have to defend yourself in the justice system? You should try that some time in this profit driven justice system some day, I am sure if you got nothing to hide you got nothing to fear...

[juleswin]

So if you are innocent you don't have to defend yourself in the justice system? You should try that some time in this profit driven justice system some day, I am sure if you got nothing to hide you got nothing to fear...

It depends on what you do to defend yourself. If a man who was wrongfully accused of rape does about to destroy the rape kit, I doubt people would chuck it off as him trying to defend himself. He should have gotten a lawyer and keep his mouth shut. He didn't need to go around talking to potential witnesses about the case and the other things he was accused to doing to obstruct justice.

[Brian4Liberty]

The position that the intelligence community abused their power does not contradict the position that Trump attempted to obstruct the investigation

I haven’t kept up with all of threads and posts on the subject, but this one stood out:

And it is no different than charging somebody under the sole charge of "resisting arrest" when no other crime has been committed. It is a strange world when one sees self claimed libertarians arguing in favor of such absurdities.

It’s pretty dangerous when anything other than complete submission to the “authorities”, whoever those individuals may be at the moment, is considered a crime. It’s very close to making any defense or attempt at defense a crime. No more need for defense lawyers, all we need are prosecutors.

[nikcers]

It depends on what you do to defend yourself. If a man who was wrongfully accused of rape does about to destroy the rape kit, I doubt people would chuck it off as him trying to defend himself. He should have gotten a lawyer and keep his mouth shut. He didn't need to go around talking to potential witnesses about the case and the other things he was accused to doing to obstruct justice.

He shouldn't of been treated like a foreigner.

[juleswin]

He shouldn't of been treated like a foreigner.

Well, life is not fair. He was accused of a crime he did not commit and he could have easily beaten the case without making new problems for himself. Luckily for him, people are interested in impeachment right now. He should count his blessings

[ATruepatriot]

I haven’t kept up with all of threads and posts on the subject, but this one stood out:



It’s pretty dangerous when anything other than complete submission to the “authorities”, whoever those individuals may be at the moment, is considered a crime. It’s very close to making any defense or attempt at defense a crime. No more need for defense lawyers, all we need are prosecutors.

Very well said... It is a very poor precedent to support. The next president might be a Libertarian and will not be immune from this very same precedent.

[Superfluous Man]

They deliberately ignored the constitution by using a FISA warrant, a lower than constitutional court that is for foreigners, on Americans. I don't care what the $#@! it is, they do not need to make it normal to treat Americans like foreigners this is exactly what they said they wouldn't do when they created the $#@!ing patriot act.

Can you quote Amash approving of anything you're complaining about?

[nikcers]

Can you quote Amash approving of anything you're complaining about?

Well you see what had happened was (studders) Justin Amash declared Trump should be impeached based on a report he read based on an investigation that was based on Hillary Clinton's witch hunt.

[Swordsmyth]

ALERT ALERT! GET ME THE PURITY KIT, STAT!

I think we're gonna have to drop you in the water to see if you float. That is blasphemous talk, sir.

EDIT: Seriously, I think Ron Paul has called this whole investigation thing a farce from day one. It would be really hard for me to imagine him saying this was a good move by Amash.



Objectivity. Gotta love it.

White Supremacist.

[Swordsmyth]

Rand Paul is the convenient libertarian, he turns that ideology on and off as it suits him. Regardless, Amash is more of a constitutionalist that a libertarian so it is consistent with his MO to call for impeachment when he think a president has committed high crime. I don't agree with him in this instance, just wish he would up his threshold to bigger crimes like starting unauthorized wars.

Amash is twisting the Constitution and he doesn't even claim that Trump committed a High Crime, he claims that the threshold for impeachment is "dishonorable behavior" an entirely subjective standard that makes a mockery of the Constitution.

[Swordsmyth]

Anybody can be wrong on anything and good people can differ on things details for which not in full view yet. In an Amash vs MAGA evaluation, one key metric would be who has track record of having pro-liberty principles and direction. Overall Amash appears much more pro-liberty than Israel-First pro-war neoconservative funded GOP-Adelson wing and the neocons cabal it is surrounded by.

Their record on other things is irrelevant and to try to involve it is either stupid or dishonest, it shows that the pro-impeachment side hasn't got a leg to stand on.

[Swordsmyth]

I've found that people who espouse a belief in the Non-Aggression principle are often some of the most passive-aggressive people you'll ever meet.

I concur.

[Swordsmyth]

The position that the intelligence community abused their power does not contradict the position that Trump attempted to obstruct the investigation

Yes it does, you can't obstruct an illegal investigation, Trump should have just fired Mueller if political concerns hadn't dictated otherwise.

[Swordsmyth]

It can be said 100 different ways, but I see two different issues. One is that the investigation should not have happened. But it did, and Congress authorized it.

The second issue is if Trump tried to interfere with that investigation.

He won't get a pass on the second matter no matter what happened on the first. Watergate and the Lewinsky scandal are evidence of that.

Amash is not some anti-liberty trojan horse because he believes in the rule of law.

If Amash believed in the rule of law he would defend Trump's right to have shut down the investigation as illegal and call for the investigation and prosecution of those involved.

[Swordsmyth]

Anything? So because of the impropriety of the investigation Trump has a blank check to do anything at all, no matter what it is, and as long as it's a result of this investigation it's automatically ok?

Yes, an illegal investigation is illegal.

Can't you consider the possibility that Amash could both oppose the "government boot" that you see at work in this investigation and also oppose Trump's response to it without any inconsistency?

No.

[Swordsmyth]

How was Trump entraped and how did his "obstructing" justice help? He was innocent all along and he did not have to do anything to evade this investigation.

Your ignorance is showing.

[Swordsmyth]

They're just opinions from people and don't have to be "right" or "wrong". See my sig line about politicians. I remember when RPF was bustling back in the day, full of people posting different opinions on topics, but we all pretty much agreed that governments have grown to control way too many aspects of life. "Right" or "wrong" wasn't of much importance. But the media and other foot soldiers have since worked very hard to break that down and reinstall the right/wrong - black/white false paradigms. Right/wrong is the foundation of divide and conquer.

And the satanist reveals himself again.

[Swordsmyth]

Well, life is not fair. He was accused of a crime he did not commit and he could have easily beaten the case without making new problems for himself. Luckily for him, people are interested in impeachment right now. He should count his blessings

You are making a false comparison, he wasn't just wrongfully accused, the investigation was illegal and rigged, he was being framed and railroaded.

[juleswin]

You are making a false comparison, he wasn't just wrongfully accused, the investigation was illegal and rigged, he was being framed and railroaded.

This investigation started in his DOJ. If illegal? Then also punish him 4 starting an illegal investigation

[Swordsmyth]

This investigation started in his DOJ. If illegal? Then also punish him 4 starting an illegal investigation

LOL

It started long before he took office and he did not appoint the officials who participated in it nor can he be held accountable for their illegal actions against him that he did not approve.

TDS is a horrible disease.

[Cleaner44]

Rand is right and Amash is being stupid. Calling for the impeachment of Trump does nothing positive and only alienates him from Republican voters. It is a situation where Amash can only lose. This leaves me wondering... what was the purpose?

[Swordsmyth]

Rand is right and Amash is being stupid. Calling for the impeachment of Trump does nothing positive and only alienates him from Republican voters. It is a situation where Amash can only lose. This leaves me wondering... what was the purpose?

This also the worst possible time to make him feel that he needs Neocon votes to stay in office, right when they are pushing for shooting wars in Iran and Venezuela.

[phill4paul]

How would he know? According to his own words he is not a libertarian.

This isn't the Amash forums. It's the Ron/ Rand Paul forums.

I just knew some liberaltarian heads were gon' 'splode.