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Thread: 43 percent say socialism is a "good thing" for America

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Not surprising.

    Idiot kids brought up in socialistic, gynocratic institutions, more than half of all household receiving some form of socialist government cheese, and tens of millions of migrant invaders still doe-eyed over the failed socialist $#@!holes they just ran away from, and I'm, quite frankly, suprised that number isn't higher.

    Stick a fork in this place...it's done.

    Of the remnant, separate now, or die.



    Four in 10 Americans Embrace Some Form of Socialism
    Gotta love when a Socialist calls other Socialists idiots. It just demonstrates how blind Socialism makes you to reality, such as the fact that favoring any State institutional regulation of anything is Socialism. State regulation of borders is just as much Socialism as State regulation of healthcare.

    Just ask Comrade Bernie:

    During the 2016 presidential campaign, Sanders said an open-border policy was “a Koch brothers proposal."

    “That’s a right-wing proposal, which says essentially there is no United States,” he said. “It would make everybody in America poorer —you're doing away with the concept of a nation-state, and I don't think there's any country in the world that believes in that. If you believe in a nation-state or in a country called the United States or U.K. or Denmark or any other country, you have an obligation in my view to do everything we can to help poor people. What right-wing people in this country would love is an open-border policy. Bring in all kinds of people, work for $2 or $3 an hour, that would be great for them. I don't believe in that.”

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...t-open-borders
    Oh, I can hear you now. Your form of Socialism is magical and special and totally legitimate unlike all the other forms of Socialism which are bad. Same bull$#@! all other Socialists spew. And the Socialist hate for each other is nothing new. Your National Socialism is no less Socialist than Comrade Bernie's Democratic Socialism. Your hatred for his (differing?) form of Socialism was understood and explained by Hayek almost 80 years ago in The Road to Serfdom:

    The communists and [National Socialists] clashed more frequently with each other than with other parties simply because they competed for the same type of mind and reserved for each other the hatred of the heretic.
    He even anticipated your fallacious arguments and justifications for your Socialism:

    What is promised to us as the Road to Freedom is in fact the Highroad to Servitude. For it is not difficult to see what must be the consequences when democracy embarks upon a course of planning. The goal of the planning will be described by some such vague term as "the general welfare." There will be no real agreement as to the ends to be attained, and the effect of the people's agreeing that there must be central planning, without agreeing on the ends, will be rather as if a group of people were to commit themselves to take a journey together without agreeing where they want to go: with the result that they may all have to make a journey which most of them do not want at all.
    The end product of your Socialism is the same as all others- Servitude and Serfdom. That you do not see it because you are all "doe-eyed" over your magical form of perfect Socialism prove snot just Hayek's point, but your own about how just how much people engage in slef-deception and fail to see the dangers of their own politics.
    “Maybe I forgot to mention something to you: I don’t believe in queens. You think freedom is something you can give and take on a whim. But to your people, freedom is as essential as air. And without it, there is no life. There is only darkness.” -Zaheer

    "A man chooses. A slave obeys."-Andrew Ryan

    "There are three things the parasite hates: free markets, free will, and free men."-Andrew Ryan



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Same ol' argument.

    Ron Paul's POV is unrealistic so let's have more Big Gov to keep us safe from more Big Gov.

    Go figure.
    Doesn't hold a candle to the big government the Communists have planned for us if allowed to follow through. Why is this reality so hard to see? Do I like big government or support it? Hell no... But this utopian bubble of no government and no restrictions is never going to happen, ever. Nice dream but very unrealistic, and in the meantime the Communist snowball is about to run us all over no mater what we believe or stand for. I hope at some point rational reality can come into play before we lose every and all opportunity to create this utopian state we want.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by ATruepatriot View Post
    Do I like big government or support it? Hell no.
    So you *don't* support having the government restrict immigration (a.k.a. big government)? I thought your whole point in this discussion was that you did.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Ron Paul was a Congressman, the best there was, who tried to work "within the system" that we have (the CONstitution). After he left the House, he verbally stated that the "gloves are now off", and is trying to get people to understand freedom, liberty and fiscal responsibility. Not only here in America, but in Mexico and other places too.

    I am sure that while Ron advocates the Constitution, there are many parts that he would disagree with when it comes down to it. He tried to work within the system, but it goes well beyond that.
    The Ron Paul I have been following since Reagan was always a strict Constitutionalist. He has always made it clear that good or bad it is the law of the land, and if we don't like it then there is a legal process to change it with no shortcuts allowed. But it stands until we get off our asses and formally change it as written in the Constitution. He was NEVER an anarchist nor has he EVER promoted anarchy.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by ATruepatriot View Post
    The Ron Paul I have been following since Reagan was always a strict Constitutionalist. He has always made it clear that good or bad it is the law of the land, and if we don't like it then there is a legal process to change it with no shortcuts allowed. But it stands until we get off our asses and formally change it as written in the Constitution. He was NEVER an anarchist nor has he EVER promoted anarchy.
    I also agree that the Constitution is the Law of the Land. I feel that we must teach it, understand it, and return to it. Only at that point can the people be better educated to know what needs to be changed - NOT by what Common Core and educators of today are proposing (communism/nationalism). It is simply a mechanism, unfortunately written by central planners.

    Anarchist, libertarian, yadda yadda... I just consider myself and individual who values Natural Rights, Private Property and Private Contract Rights, and the NAP.

    ;-)
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    So you *don't* support having the government restrict immigration (a.k.a. big government)? I thought your whole point in this discussion was that you did.
    That's what I thought too (that he is a restrictionist and does support growing government). In fact I think he made it perfectly clear.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    So you *don't* support having the government restrict immigration (a.k.a. big government)? I thought your whole point in this discussion was that you did.
    No I don't... But I am smart enough to know that we will never get "no government" as wanted in this utopian bubble. It will always be there and it's never going away. Knowing this there are only two choices in reality less now or much much more later. Am I the only one who noticed this difference of reality vs fantasy has already weakened and divided the Libertarian party? It was once a real third party threat to the major parties and it stepped on it's own toes with this difference of reality vs fantasy. It was a sad thing to see after all the efforts I personally made to help promote the Libertarian party. The inability to agree on anything became a detriment and self defeating. Maybe someday... but never in the environment we have right now. Even Ron Paul, Justin Amash, and Rand Paul were smart enough to have recognized this reality and had to run as Republicans. Did we somehow miss this reality?

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    That's what I thought too (that he is a restrictionist and does support growing government). In fact I think he made it perfectly clear.
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post6800504

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by ATruepatriot View Post
    No I don't... But I am smart enough to know that we will never get "no government" as wanted in this utopian bubble. It will always be there and it's never going away. Knowing this there are only two choices in reality less now or much much more later. Am I the only one who noticed this difference of reality vs fantasy has already weakened and divided the Libertarian party? It was once a real third party threat to the major parties and it stepped on it's own toes with this difference of reality vs fantasy. It was a sad thing to see after all the efforts I personally made to help promote the Libertarian party. The inability to agree on anything became a detriment and self defeating. Maybe someday... but never in the environment we have right now. Even Ron Paul, Justin Amash, and Rand Paul were smart enough to have recognized this reality and had to run as Republicans. Did we somehow miss this reality?
    As I said before, Ron tried. Justin, Tom and Rand are still trying, but they hit road blocks at every turn. The root cause is the way kids are being taight and what the "news" outlets slant. People do not have time or care to think on their own. I can not tell you how many times I am told "politics does not interest me" so they vote with the flow.

    Ron himself has said that it was an experiment of freedom. People are naturally sheep and never miss what they don't know. All we can do is activate, teach and try to pass down to others what true freedom is really all about. They will either feel it and embrace it, or not.

    Meantime I am not about promoting tightening the noose which is this central government.
    Last edited by PAF; 05-21-2019 at 10:25 AM.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    State regulation of borders is just as much Socialism as State regulation of healthcare.
    If an armed tank column and division of troops charged across the border to hold territory, is it socialism to call up the citizen militias to repel them?

    Yes or no?



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    If an armed tank column and division of troops charged across the border to hold territory, is it socialism to call up the citizen militias to repel them?

    Yes or no?
    Private property, or unused land that could be homesteaded?


    Do you think the BLM/Fed should control unused land?

    Do you think we should have Constitution Free zones?

    Do you think companies should be considered criminals for not paying minimum wage in lieu of negotiate contracts between employer/worker?

    Do you think we should "document" more people so that they are eligible for incentives/welfare, and pay into and fund the Fed.gov?

    Do you think you and I should be "documented" as well in order to differentiate between them and us? If so, biometrics/blood sampling also since it is new wave tech?

    Can you and I exchange screen names? I really like and agree with it.
    Last edited by PAF; 05-21-2019 at 10:47 AM.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    No, that would be the forum statists that always bring things back to the border issue.

    Most of us "free market/free trade/natural rights advocates stand with Ron Paul:

    No entitlements.
    A reasonable pathway to citizenship
    No REAL ID
    Reasonable protection at the border- yes- but do not turn it into a war zone.
    I fully agree with all these principles Ender. Except that the border was a War Zone long before Trump was elected. It was beyond and past "reasonable protection" and out of hand for a long time needing extreme measures to counter this war zone. I am against what caused it too, the war on drugs, but if anyone thinks the WOD is going away they are fooling themselves. Unfortunately in the meantime an extreme situation requires extreme counter measures or our goose is cooked from the real results if we do not.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by ATruepatriot View Post
    I fully agree with all these principles Ender. Except that the border was a War Zone long before Trump was elected. It was beyond and past "reasonable protection" and out of hand for a long time needing extreme measures to counter this war zone. I am against what caused it too, the war on drugs, but if anyone thinks the WOD is going away they are fooling themselves. Unfortunately in the meantime an extreme situation requires extreme counter measures or our goose is cooked from the real results if we do not.
    War Zone? So the government DOES interfere and cause the problems.


    I am not advocating anything here, just pointing this out:


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    But that does not change the fact that this government is intent on:


    Click image for larger version. 

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    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Private property, or unused land that could be homesteaded?


    Do you think the BLM/Fed should control unused land?

    Do you think we should have Constitution Free zones?

    Do you think companies should be considered criminals for not paying minimum wage in lieu of negotiate contracts between employee/worker?

    Do you think we should "document" more people so that they are eligible for incentives/welfare, and pay into and fund the Fed.gov?

    Do you think you and I should be "documented" as well in order to differentiate between them and us? If so, biometrics/blood sampling also since it is new wave tech?
    These are all different issues to be addressed totally separate. Why do you always lump them altogether as one all or none package?

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    War Zone? So the government DOES interfere and cause the problems.


    I am not advocating anything here, just pointing this out:


    Click image for larger version. 

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    See that land that Mexico has possession of in Az and New Mexico? That should never have happened and could have been stopped and should have been stopped. U.S. citizens can no longer safely enjoy those parts of our own country anymore. I pay taxes in Az to have the right to use those lands and cannot safely do so.

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by ATruepatriot View Post
    These are all different issues to be addressed totally separate. Why do you always lump them altogether as one all or none package?
    Because they ALL interact with each other. The solution that trump and many people here are advocating for leads to all of the above and more. It is the globalist agenda. It will be the unintended consequences, or as Ron Paul has said "good intentions lead to bad consequences". As I have said, communists do not give a rats ass if it is an actual wall, or not - they just want people documented and processed by whatever means will accomplish it.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by ATruepatriot View Post
    See that land that Mexico has possession of in Az and New Mexico? That should never have happened and could have been stopped and should have been stopped. U.S. citizens can no longer safely enjoy those parts of our own country anymore. I pay taxes in Az to have the right to use those lands and cannot safely do so.
    No worries. Government will save you. No, really, they have your best interest at heart LOL

    Once more people are processed and pay into the Fed, along with bigger government, you can show your ID to the next government agent and go anywhere you'd like - as long as it's not restricted, or you don't have $10,000 in cash, and you don't mind being searched without a warrant, etc. etc., etc. ;-)
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    As I said before, Ron tried. Justin, Tom and Rand are still trying, but they hit road blocks at every turn. The root cause is the way kids are being taight and what the "news" outlets slant. People do not have time or care to think on their own. I can not tell you how many times I am told "politics does not interest me" so they vote with the flow.

    Ron himself has said that it was an experiment of freedom. People are naturally sheep and never miss what they don't know. All we can do is activate, teach and try to pass down to others what true freedom is really all about. They will either feel it and embrace it, or not.

    Meantime I am not about promoting tightening the noose which is this central government.
    I absolutely agree with everything you say here. And have always backed the effort to make this difference. But I am also a realist and know that right now we have run out of time and buffer space to make any real changes anytime soon, not soon enough to stop what is coming at us in the immediate time frame. And once it comes what we would like to do is going to become a 1000 times harder to do if even at all after.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    No worries. Government will save you. No, really, they have your best interest at heart LOL

    Once more people are processed and pay into the Fed, along with bigger government, you can show your ID to the next government agent and go anywhere you'd like - as long as it's not restricted, or you don't have $10,000 in cash, and you don't mind being searched without a warrant, etc. etc., etc. ;-)
    You are lumping it all together again.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Because they ALL interact with each other. The solution that trump and many people here are advocating for leads to all of the above and more. It is the globalist agenda. It will be the unintended consequences, or as Ron Paul has said "good intentions lead to bad consequences". As I have said, communists do not give a rats ass if it is an actual wall, or not - they just want people documented and processed by whatever means will accomplish it.
    No they don't, If I believe in all but one then you have placed me in the impure category that implies that because of the one I then do not believe in all the others either. It is a dishonest "one size fits all" "all or none" tactic. I either have to believe in all of them or I don't believe in any of them in your eyes. Which is not at all true.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    I also agree that the Constitution is the Law of the Land. I feel that we must teach it, understand it, and return to it. Only at that point can the people be better educated to know what needs to be changed - NOT by what Common Core and educators of today are proposing (communism/nationalism). It is simply a mechanism, unfortunately written by central planners.

    Anarchist, libertarian, yadda yadda... I just consider myself and individual who values Natural Rights, Private Property and Private Contract Rights, and the NAP.

    ;-)
    The Constitution sets National Boundaries and Borders. Just because we don't like it, it doesn't make it any less the law of the land. Until it's changed it's still Constitutional law whether we like it or not. THIS is the point I'm trying to make with reality in all this.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by ATruepatriot View Post
    No I don't... But I am smart enough to know that we will never get "no government" as wanted in this utopian bubble.
    OK. But if you're for government imposed immigration restriction, you're not just for a little government, you're for a massive police state. For the majority of this nation's history when people could freely move themselves across the nation's borders and were free to get jobs and hire employees without getting the government's permission, there was still a government, just not one as big as the kind you support.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by ATruepatriot View Post
    Doesn't hold a candle to the big government the Communists have planned for us if allowed to follow through. Why is this reality so hard to see? Do I like big government or support it? Hell no... But this utopian bubble of no government and no restrictions is never going to happen, ever. Nice dream but very unrealistic, and in the meantime the Communist snowball is about to run us all over no mater what we believe or stand for. I hope at some point rational reality can come into play before we lose every and all opportunity to create this utopian state we want.
    1st of all, you need to understand that the CONstitution was actually a Hamiltonian coup to install big government & have it run by the elites. And, it has worked beautifully. Most Americans live in worship of the CONstitution because they've been brainwashed in public schools with false history, economics, etc etc etc.

    The Anti-Federalists were absolutely right & the original amendments were the only thing that finally drew the states in. Most states did not want a big central government telling them what to do. They'd had enough with the Brits. The coup started the demise of the early ideas of natural rights & freedom, with each state having it's own solidarity. The "Civil" War ended the last bit of States Rights.

    What we have now is a "pretense" of freedom- the average guy doesn't even own his own land. Property taxes determine who the real owner is. And most all fed laws are even unconstitutional- that's how far down the road, the strangulation of any real liberty has gone.

    All this talk of the evil socialists/communists taking over the country is a joke. The so-called "Land of the Free" disappeared a long time ago. And, the ignorance of the people is the prime thing that keeps us all enslaved.
    There is no spoon.

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    OK. But if you're for government imposed immigration restriction, you're not just for a little government, you're for a massive police state. For the majority of this nation's history when people could freely move themselves across the nation's borders and were free to get jobs and hire employees without getting the government's permission, there was still a government, just not one as big as the kind you support.
    I will respectfully reply in a bit, in an important project I need to concentrate on.

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Private property, or unused land that could be homesteaded?


    Do you think the BLM/Fed should control unused land?

    Do you think we should have Constitution Free zones?

    Do you think companies should be considered criminals for not paying minimum wage in lieu of negotiate contracts between employer/worker?

    Do you think we should "document" more people so that they are eligible for incentives/welfare, and pay into and fund the Fed.gov?

    Do you think you and I should be "documented" as well in order to differentiate between them and us? If so, biometrics/blood sampling also since it is new wave tech?

    Can you and I exchange screen names? I really like and agree with it.
    Don't answer a question with more questions.

    If an armed tank column and division of troops charged across the border to hold territory, is it socialism to call up the citizen militias to repel them?

    Yes or no?

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    Gotta love when a Socialist calls other Socialists idiots. It just demonstrates how blind Socialism makes you to reality, such as the fact that favoring any State institutional regulation of anything is Socialism. State regulation of borders is just as much Socialism as State regulation of healthcare.
    Wait - did you really, in practice, just say that everyone in the world is a socialist because they believe in individual rights and the requisite regulations that implies?

    That is so intellectually dishonest. Do you really believe our world should be just one big country? We can just take anyone, from anywhere, and there's no problem? No cultural differences, no separate beliefs? There's no reason for the concept of nations, despite the fact they've existed for thousands of years, because our light bulb answer just happened to off, for us, right now, and we have it all figured out? How convenient.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Don't answer a question with more questions.

    If an armed tank column and division of troops charged across the border to hold territory, is it socialism to call up the citizen militias to repel them?

    Yes or no?
    No. As long as participation, including funding, is voluntary.

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    No. As long as participation, including funding, is voluntary.
    OK, so we've determined that a border and territory is a tangible thing, and now we're just arguing about the ways and means to defend it.

    Thank you.

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    1st of all, you need to understand that the CONstitution was actually a Hamiltonian coup to install big government & have it run by the elites. And, it has worked beautifully. Most Americans live in worship of the CONstitution because they've been brainwashed in public schools with false history, economics, etc etc etc.

    The Anti-Federalists were absolutely right & the original amendments were the only thing that finally drew the states in. Most states did not want a big central government telling them what to do. They'd had enough with the Brits. The coup started the demise of the early ideas of natural rights & freedom, with each state having it's own solidarity. The "Civil" War ended the last bit of States Rights.

    What we have now is a "pretense" of freedom- the average guy doesn't even own his own land. Property taxes determine who the real owner is. And most all fed laws are even unconstitutional- that's how far down the road, the strangulation of any real liberty has gone.

    All this talk of the evil socialists/communists taking over the country is a joke. The so-called "Land of the Free" disappeared a long time ago. And, the ignorance of the people is the prime thing that keeps us all enslaved.
    This is 100 percent correct.

    Important to remember is that the AoC were written up to provide one thing a small sovereign state had trouble providing: a unified defense against invasion.

    That said, your further points are right on as well, and yes, I see the crushing irony of talking of whether socialism would be "good or bad" to implement in a nation that is, for all practical purposes, fully socialist as it stands.

    What's concerning to me is that I suspect those 43 percent of people do not think socialism is good for the country, but rather, think that full blown Bolshevik/Jacobinite authoritarian collectivism would be a great thing to put in place, with the pogroms and genocides that come along with that.

    These people want a Stalin-esque nightmare of GULAGS and killing fields, not fuzzy, feel good Swedish welfare statism.

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    1st of all, you need to understand that the CONstitution was actually a Hamiltonian coup to install big government & have it run by the elites. And, it has worked beautifully. Most Americans live in worship of the CONstitution because they've been brainwashed in public schools with false history, economics, etc etc etc.

    The Anti-Federalists were absolutely right & the original amendments were the only thing that finally drew the states in. Most states did not want a big central government telling them what to do. They'd had enough with the Brits. The coup started the demise of the early ideas of natural rights & freedom, with each state having it's own solidarity. The "Civil" War ended the last bit of States Rights.

    What we have now is a "pretense" of freedom- the average guy doesn't even own his own land. Property taxes determine who the real owner is. And most all fed laws are even unconstitutional- that's how far down the road, the strangulation of any real liberty has gone.

    All this talk of the evil socialists/communists taking over the country is a joke. The so-called "Land of the Free" disappeared a long time ago. And, the ignorance of the people is the prime thing that keeps us all enslaved.
    Trust me I do understand everything you share here. I understand it very well. The thing is the options are not the equal same/same. What's coming from the left is 100 times more oppressive than what we have now if allowed to succeed. And if you have a better option available that can succeed to prevent this reality in the next year I'm all ears.

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