My bad. I missed some posts in between.Originally Posted by Superfluous Man
#NashvilleStrong
“I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi
I apologize as it appears I caused some confusion. I should have been more clear.
Donnay, are you stating that we are currently in the ‘millennium”, or that it will be a future event after Christ’s return?
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
Based on study, I believe it will be after.
#NashvilleStrong
“I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi
I don’t see how that is possible. It is like putting a fish into beautiful water and then expecting it to jump out to choke in the air. It would take some seriously spiritually sick person to experience paradise after death and then change their mind and decide to join the ranks of Satan. I have not heard of anything like that happening in the history of the Church although I guess it may be possible(?). After all, angels fell.
What has happened and been recorded in the history of the Church however is the opposite, namely that a person who died unrepentant and in sin be raised out of perdition and enter into paradise through the prayers of the Saints.
Last edited by TER; 06-09-2019 at 08:32 PM.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
These are the major opinions, some ancient some modern. The one held by to be orthodox by every one of the Churches which can trace back to the Apostles (namely, the Orthodox, the Roman Catholic, and the Oriental Orthodox, +/- Anglican) is the bottom one (called Amillennialism). All others are opinions which have been rejected as being in error.
People can believe whatever they choose to believe. I am just stating the above for those who wish to know what the oldest Christian Churches teach as being correct.
Last edited by TER; 06-09-2019 at 08:37 PM.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
Yes, I studied that in college. Nobody has ever said straight out that our church is amillennial, but it comes across in some of the teaching.
Again, not a hill to die on where I am concerned. I live out my faith every day. I came to faith because I want a relationship with God. That may not sound right, but it was the best way my 14 yo mind could describe it.
The topic I’m most interested in right now is suffering. We can start a new thread about that.
#NashvilleStrong
“I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi
Of course, this (Millennialism) shouldn’t be a hill to die on, but it may have significance in one’s life journey. The state of the departed and our prayers for them, however, are important.
The topic of suffering is another extremely important topic and I would gladly welcome a thread about it, especially as some modern Christian denominations have lost sight of it (I’m thinking of the Prosperity Gospel advocates, etc). The simple truth is that without Golgotha, there is no Resurrection. Following Christ means picking up our cross and following him, even to Golgotha.
Last edited by TER; 06-09-2019 at 09:24 PM.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
It is my understanding that classic premillennialism (top) has been around since the early church, but that dispensational premillennialism is a fairly recent theology (eschatology) dating no earlier than the mid 1800s. Am I wrong on this?
These are the major opinions, some ancient some modern. The one held by to be orthodox by every one of the Churches which can trace back to the Apostles (namely, the Orthodox, the Roman Catholic, and the Oriental Orthodox, +/- Anglican) is the bottom one (called Amillennialism). All others are opinions which have been rejected as being in error.
People can believe whatever they choose to believe. I am just stating the above for those who wish to know what the oldest Christian Churches teach as being correct.
BTW I would say I'm an amillennialism with a partial preterist bent.
Edit. I didn't read good enough to see where your post said "some ancient some modern."
Last edited by tfurrh; 06-09-2019 at 09:30 PM.
"It's probably the biggest hoax since Big Foot!" - Mitt Romney 1-16-2012 SC Debate
Yes. There were some in the early Church who held to classic premillennialism. When the topic finally came to a point where the Church needed to clarify, Millennialism was deemed to be in error and at the Second Ecumenical Council it was added to the Nicene Creed the statement that Christ "shall come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead, Whose Kingdom shall have no end." This was added to make it clear that there would be no temporary millennial kingdom, but an eternal one.
This is one example of how it is through the consensus on the Church whereby the truth is revealed. A few Early Church Fathers could have had held a differing opinion, but this opinion has now been corrected by the living witness, experience, and voice of the whole Church. Now, there is no excuse to believe in Millennialism (at least, in the eyes of the Orthodox Christians).
Last edited by TER; 06-09-2019 at 10:01 PM.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
That's how it should happen....what happened with purgatory? Honest question.
"It's probably the biggest hoax since Big Foot!" - Mitt Romney 1-16-2012 SC Debate
I’m not sure. The Orthodox Church does not teach this. This teaching started in the Roman Catholic Church after the Great Schism and was first defined by the Catholic Church in 1274.
Had the Great Schism not had happened, then presumably this teaching would have not become an official doctrine of the Roman See as the remaining Bishops of Christendom would have not accepted it had it come before a Ecumenical Council. This doctrine developed specifically as a Latin phenomenon, apart from the Eastern Church.
Last edited by TER; 06-09-2019 at 10:28 PM.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
The Lord's Day (AKA: The Millennium) is the future. That is after the seventh trump, seventh vial, and seventh seal.
“The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner
And then you believe that Christ will reign on earth for a thousand years before the Last Judgment?
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
What is an example of that that's recorded in Church history? If it did happen, how would anyone on earth even know it?
That is correct. One day with the Lord is as a thousand years with man--hence the Lord's Day. The millennium (The Lord's Day) is the time for teaching while Satan will be completely locked away so people will not be deceived or distracted.
2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Revelation 20:1-3
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
Revelation 20:4-6
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:7-10
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
“The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner
There are instances recorded within the Hagiographies of such things happening. I will list a few:
In the life of St. Gregory the Dialogist, Pope of Rome. Once as he was going along a road, St. Gregory suddenly stopped and began to pray for the forgiveness of sins of the emperor Trajan who was already dead. Soon he heard the following words from God: “I have hearkened unto thy prayers and grant remission of sins to Trajan, but henceforth off Me no prayers for the unrighteous”.
At another time, St. Gregory the Dialogist told the story: "One brother," he says, "for breaking the vow of poverty, was deprived of a church funeral and prayers after his death for a period of thirty days, in order to strike fear in the hearts of the others. But later, out of compassion for his soul, the Bloodless Sacrifice and prayers were offered up for him for the space of thirty days. On the last of these days, the deceased appeared in a vision to his brother, whom he had left among the living, and said: 'Until now it has gone badly for me, but now I am at peace, for today I received communion.'"
This same holy Father, in his dialogues with the Deacon Peter, tells of the apparition of a dead man who begged a priest to help him by praying for him to God. "From this it is obvious," he concludes, "how profitable the Sacred Sacrifice is for souls; for the souls themselves ask it of the living, and indicate the means by which they are cleansed of sins."
There are two instances with St. Benedict regarding miraculous events demonstrating that through the prayers of the Church and the offering of the prosphora (the bread to be used in the Holy Eucharist). The first instance was when two nuns who had lived sinful lives died. They were buried in the Church. Certain worthy (read:holy) persons noticed that every time the decon said “Catechumens depart” during the Liturgy, the two nuns would get out of their tombs and leave the Church. This was told to St. Benedict and after offering the prosphora to God on their behalf, the young nuns ceased to be seen leaving their tombs. Another instance was of a young monk who had died in sin. He was buried and the next day the body of the monk was found to be outside the coffin. They buried him again, and again, the next day his body was found outside the coffin. Only after St. Benedict ordered the Holy Eucharist be offered for him and placed a particle of the Holy Gifts on breast of dead man, did the body remain in the coffin after burial.
In another example, St. John the Merciful, Patriarch of Alexandria, often celebrated the Divine Liturgy for the dead, and stated that it is a great aid to their souls. To corroborate this, he cites the following:
"There was a certain prisoner whose parents, considering him dead, had the Liturgy served three times a year for him—on Theophany, Pascha and Pentecost. After he had been released from captivity, returning unexpectedly to his parents, he recalled that on those very days a certain man of glorious appearance came to him in prison carrying a torch. The fetters fell from his hands and he was freed; the rest of the days he was again in chains as a prisoner."
Other examples include St. Thecla (disciple of St. Paul and known in the Church as “equal to the Apostles”) who saved the dead pagan Falconilla from perdition through her intercessions, as revealed in a divine vision.
The Greek Emperor and Iconoclast Theophilus lived carelessly and did not concern himself with the salvation of his soul. Death found this sovereign in the midst of his sinful life. The Empress St. Theodora, Theophilus' consort, was horrified at the heavy lot that would befall her husband in eternity. At her behest, prayers were increased in the churches, alms were distributed, good works were performed. And what was the result? The prayers of the Church reached the Lord. Theophilus was forgiven, as revealed by a divine vision, to the spiritual joy of his grieving spouse and to the consolation of the Church, which has so merciful and mighty a Lord, Who gives life to the dead and leads them forth from the abyss of hell, not only bodily, but spiritually.
"But who can number," asks St. John of Damascus, "all of the testimonies found in the biographies of holy men, in the accounts of the lives of the holy martyrs and the divine revelations, which clearly indicate that even after death tremendous benefit is rendered to the departed by prayers, Liturgies and the distribution of alms for them. For nothing given to God perishes in return, but is rewarded by Him with the greatest interest."
Last edited by TER; 06-10-2019 at 07:15 AM.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
Here are some more examples:
St. John of Damascus relates: "A certain holy man had a disciple who was living heedlessly. And what happened? Death found him in the midst of his carelessness. The merciful Heavenly Father, roused by the tears and cries of the elder, revealed to him the youth burning in flames up to his neck, like the merciless rich man mentioned in the parable of Lazarus. And when the saint subjected his flesh to strict mortification, fervently beseeching God for the forgiveness of his disciple, he beheld him enveloped in flame up to his waist. Finally, when the holy man had increased his ascetic labors yet more, God revealed him in a vision to the elder, removed from the flame and completely free."
The holy martyr Perpetua relates: "One day, at the time of general prayer in prison, I unexpectedly uttered the name of my dead brother Dinocrates. Struck by this unusual occurrence, I began to pray and sigh for him before God. On the following night I received a vision: I saw Dinocrates come forth, as though from a dark place. He was in intense heat, tormented by thirst, filthy in appearance and pallid. On his face was the wound from which he had died. Between us yawned a deep crevasse, and we were unable to approach each other. Beside the place where Dinocrates stood there was a full cistern, the lip of which stood much higher than my brother's stature, and Dinocrates stretched, trying to reach the water. I was filled with pity, for the height of the rim prevented my brother from drinking. Immediately after this I awoke and realized that my brother was in torment. But believing that my prayer could help him in his suffering, I prayed all day and night in the prison, with cries and lamentations, that Dinocrates be treated mercifully. And on the day on which we were kept in chains, I received a new vision: the place which before I had seen had been made bright, and Dinocrates, with a clean face and beautiful apparel, was enjoying its coolness. Where he had had a wound, I saw only a trace of it. The rim of the cistern was no higher than the waist of the young man, and he was able to draw water from it without effort. On the rim of the cistern stood a golden cup full of water. Dinocrates approached it and began to drink from it, but the water in it did not decrease. Satisfied, he stepped away from it and began to rejoice. With this the vision ended. I then understood that he had been released from punishment.
One day the Venerable Macarius of Egypt was walking about the desert and found a dried-out human skull lying on the ground. Turning it over with his staff, the saint heard a sound, as though from a distance. Then Macarius asked the skull: "What manner of man wast thou?"
"I was the chief of the pagan priests that dwelt in this place," it replied. "When thou, O Abba Macarius, who art full of the Spirit of God, pray for us, taking pity on them that are in the torments of hell, we then receive a certain relief."
"And what manner of relief do ye receive?" asked Macarius. "And tell me, what torments are ye subjected to?"
"As far as heaven is above the earth," replied the skull with a groan, "so great is the fire in the midst of which we find ourselves, wrapped in flame from head to toe. At this time we cannot see each others' faces, but when thou prayest for us, we can see each other a little, and this affords us some consolation."
On hearing this reply, the venerable one wept and said: "Cursed is that day when man broke the divine ordinance!" And once again he asked the skull: "Are there any other tortures worse than yours?"
"Beneath us, much farther down, there are many others," it replied.
"And who are found in such unbearable torments?" asked Macarius.
"We who did not know God, yet experience the mercy of God a little," answered the skull. "But they that knew the name of God, yet rejected Him and did not keep His commandments, undergo much heavier and worse torments below."
After this St. Macarius took the skull, buried it in the ground and departed thence.
The Blessed Luke relates that he had a brother who, having, become a monk, concerned himself little with his soul and died, not having prepared himself for death. The holy elder wished to discover what his brother had been accounted worthy of, and he began to entreat God to reveal his lot. One day, during his prayers, the elder beheld the soul of his brother in the hands of demons. Meanwhile, money and costly things had been found in the cell of the deceased, from which the elder understood that the soul of his brother was suffering, among other reasons, for breaking the vow of poverty. All the money that had been found the elder gave to the poor. After that, he again began to pray, and beheld the judgment seat of God and the radiant angels contending with the demons for the soul of his brother. The demons cried out to God: "Thou art just! Judge Thou! This soul belongs to us, for it hath done our deeds!" But the angels said that the soul of the dead man had been freed by the alms which had been distributed for it. To this the evil spirits objected, saving: "Did the deceased distribute the alms, or did this elder distribute them?", indicating the Blessed Luke.
The elder was terrified by this vision, but nonetheless summoned up the courage to say: "It is true that I distributed the alms, but not for myself, but for this soul." The outraged spirits, hearing the elder's reply, straightway vanished, and the elder, consoled by this vision, ceased to doubt and grieve over the fate of his brother.
The holy Abbess Athanasia of Aegina stipulated in her testament that the sisters of her convent prepare meals for the poor in her memory throughout the forty days following her demise. But the nuns carried out this command only until the ninth day, and afterwards ceased. Then the saint appeared to them with two angels and said: "Why have ye forgotten my bequest? Know ye not that alms given for the soul until the fortieth day and the feeding of the poor move God to mercy as well as the prayers of the priests? If the souls of the departed were sinful, God granteth them remission of sins; and if they were righteous, the charity performed on their behalf serves for the salvation of them that perform the charitable works." Having said this, the Venerable Athanasia drove her staff into the ground and vanished. The next day the sisters saw that her staff had sprouted. Then they gave glory to God, the Creator of all things
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
Here are some great resources on this topic:
https://www.amazon.com/Soul-After-De.../dp/093863514X
https://www.amazon.com/How-Our-Depar...s%2C122&sr=1-1
https://www.amazon.com/Eternal-Myste...PH8VAFBVM2KE2K
https://www.amazon.com/after-Death-M...QB6MQE18HG4D6C
https://www.amazon.com/after-Death-a...ZPFBCHQFMBH8EE
https://www.amazon.com/Departure-Acc...QB6MQE18HG4D6C
I have read these and would highly recommend. The last one, at over a thousand pages, is the most complete.
Last edited by TER; 06-10-2019 at 07:31 AM.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
I am a part of a Bible study group that got on the topic of suffering. One of the people of the group brought in a Greek Bible with a concordance in it it said to suffer means to allow. That changed my whole perspective on suffering...
I think everyone will suffer when coming face to face with God (God is love.) PURE LOVE.
Refining fire. Silversmith. The silver is not destroyed in the fire, but the dross (non-love) is removed
Every knee will bow.
His justice is Perfect. Not our sense of Justice. Divine justice.
Suffering without a purpose is not God's way.
Infinite suffering for finite crimes is not God's way.
We're living in a world ruled by man and all of man's inadequacies and shortcomings and ignorance.
God is merciful and just to all.
We're here for a reason.
Every knee will bow.
1 Tim 4:10
That's all I have to say.
I'm not a religion debater anymore, but wanted to put it out there for the casual observer.
Yeah that sounds like what's taught. It's sort of like you qualify for heaven, but have a few buggers that need cleaning up. Found a bit more...
Proving PurgatoryDefinitions, etc.
The Catholic dogma of the existence of Purgatory is a part of the Christian revelation given by Jesus Christ to His Apostles. It is the primary aim of this article to prove this from the Bible. 2
What, then are we talking about? It is necessary to define the word before we prove the doctrine it labels. Purgatory is that state of temporary punishment by which a person who is not condemned to Hell is purified of sin or the debt of sin, before entering Heaven. It is a state of “purgation,” hence the name. Purgatory is not a middle place between Heaven and Hell where people unworthy of either place go. No, Purgatory is for saved people. They will all end up in Heaven, and Purgatory will cease to exist at the General Judgment. Therefore, Heaven and Hell will be the only enduring habitations of men, and each man will spend the rest of eternity in one or the other.
The Protestant attack on this dogma claims that those who go to Heaven are in no further need of purgation, since (they say) Jesus’ finished work on the Cross paid the full debt and there is nothing more left for us to do to attain salvation. While superficially this might sound like a “holy” thing to say, its ramifications are wicked, since the process of salvation involves much more that the believer’s merely having some sort of trust in the merits of Christ. If Jesus’ death on the cross did everything, then there would be no need on our part to believe, to avoid sin, or to do good. In fact, we could live as wretched a life as possible and still go to Heaven.
You’re Dead!
Let us begin at the beginning, which is death, for only dead people go to Purgatory.
We recall that “it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.” (Heb. 9:27) At the particular judgment, when we meet Jesus face to face, we will have to give a reckoning of our sins.
It is obvious from nature that we do not know our appointed time of death. 3 Since Judgment is an immediate consequence of death, it is a strict conclusion of reason that none of us knows the moment of his judgment. To corroborate this, the Bible assures us that judgment comes quickly, and unexpectedly. God has told us that He comes “as a thief in the night” several times in Holy Scripture: Matthew 24:43, for one. For another, there is this in the book of the Apocalypse 4: “Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.” (Apoc. 3:3)
Our Judgment will be based upon whether we were, by God’s standards, good enough for Heaven, or evil enough for Hell.
“Nothing Defiled”
But here we have a problem. If we’ve died in the state of grace (righteousness, justice, friendship with God), we may still be defiled by sin, and nothing defiled enters the kingdom of Heaven. As it is written, “And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth 5, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.” (Apoc. 21:27)
Sin defiles a man. If not, then sin does not matter, and we can be saved regardless of whether we sin or not, whether we repent or not. If sin defiles us, there must be some way of being “undefiled” so that we can go to Heaven. What happens if we die before we are purged of our sins, or the effects of sin in this life? We go to Purgatory.
https://catholicism.org/proving-purgatory.html
Make America the Land of the Free & the Home of the Brave again
I'm not sure if EO is the same or not, but according to Catholic teaching, the first two reasons are both considered genuinely supernatural reasons for contrition, but nevertheless still imperfect contrition. Repentance with these motivations can lead to forgiveness in the sacrament of penance.
Pure love for God as a motivation for repentance would constitute perfect contrition, and in such a state, a soul can be saved even without the sacrament of penance, though they are still obligated to go to confession as soon as possible.
I don't know if the Catholic Church distinguishes repentance for fear of Hell, and for fear of losing heaven, other than that both are imperfect.
This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading
Hi CL,
I would say that I agree with everything you have written above and believe it aligns perfectly with what the Orthodox Church teaches.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
All the promises of Scripture are eternal -- eternal life, eternal blessedness, eternal peace, and so on. Those promises can't be true if you can "screw it up". See John 10:28,29 and ask yourself: are you greater than the Father, in order to be able to snatch yourself from his hand?
Heaven itself is widely misunderstood because of our human tendency to visualize things (create representational forms which we can use to anchor them in our minds). Cherubs floating on clouds strumming harps is an easily recognizable trope denoting heaven to any Westerner. Heaven is not a place, as such. Heaven is a state-of-being in which time, place and all other material considerations cease to matter (cease to have any constraining effect) because the one who is in heaven is dwelling with God.
Perhaps a mundane metaphor will help explain the point. Imagine watching a tragic film in which all the good characters die. During the film, you are very sad and you keep feeling this terrible sense of dread and crushing grief. The movie is just horrid and makes you feel horrid. When the movie has ended and the credits begin to roll, you look around the room and you realize "Oh, I'm in the movie theater. What a terribly depressing movie that was, I felt like I was dying through the whole thing. Nevermind, I have some delicious dessert waiting at home and my beautiful dog Spot." The movie itself is completely over, its characters gone except for whatever traces they leave in your memory (hopefully, as little as possible) and you are not even slightly reluctant to see it go. Quite the opposite, you are positively joyful to return to the happiness of your real life.
This horrid movie is analogous to our situation in the fallen world. We are stuck in this terrible, depressing place in which death reigns and human misery -- whether our own or that of others -- is an omnipresent fact of existence. If we are being saved then, along the way, we must also be sanctified (washed, cleaned, renewed, made ready for heaven). When we are glorified (when the movie ends), we will stand up, look around, and realize it is all just a terrible memory that we will forget as quickly as possible because it has no redeeming value (see Psalm 73:20, Isaiah 65:17). It's just horrid in every possible sense of that word; repulsive, like an overflowing septic tank. So, when we refer to "heaven", we are not referring to the continuation of this world (this movie, in the analogy), we are referring to the discontinuation of this world, and entrance to the paradise our original parents left when they sinned (as restored/recreated by Jesus Christ, see Revelation 21:5). If you have eternal life, you will not be annihilated. Instead, everything you once knew (whether you thought you loved it, or not) will be annihilated (see 2 Peter 3:12, Mark 13:31, 1 Corinthians 7:31, Revelation 21:1, et. al.)
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