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Thread: Court day in Heaven - purgatory, parole officer?

  1. #1

    Question Court day in Heaven - purgatory, parole officer?

    Catholics believe in purgatory, where you might do some time before getting into heaven.

    But is it possible to get booted out of heaven if you screw up there? Despite having gone to Catholic schools through the 9th grade, I don't know the answer.

    I might have forgotten a few of the finer points, in the intervening decades.
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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by RonZeplin View Post
    Catholics believe in purgatory, where you might do some time before getting into heaven.

    But is it possible to get booted out of heaven if you screw up there? Despite having gone to Catholic schools through the 9th grade, I don't know the answer.

    I might have forgotten a few of the finer points, in the intervening decades.
    Edit: I just realized you were talking about purgatory. I don't know the answer to that and would defer to someone who knows more about it.
    Last edited by TER; 05-14-2019 at 09:17 AM.
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    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Edit: I just realized you were talking about purgatory. I don't know the answer to that and would defer to someone who knows more about it.
    No, you can't get booted out of heaven. Its not possible to "screw up" in heaven. And if a soul gets to purgatory, from a Catholic standpoint, they'll definitely make it to heaven, they just have to go through some type of suffering first. What exactly that entails is not definitively defined by the Church.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  5. #4
    It would be nice if someone got a written account from Lazarus

  6. #5

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by VIDEODROME View Post
    It would be nice if someone got a written account from Lazarus
    Since you mention it, tradition states that St. Lazarus become the Bishop of Cyprus by the hands of St. Paul later in his life and that from the day he was raised from the dead until his repose in the Lord 30 years later, he never smiled or said a joke except on one occasion, recorded in the Synaxarion. One day, he saw someone stealing a clay pot and he smiled saying, "the clay steals the clay".
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    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  8. #7
    Some more info on St. Lazarus :

    According to Scripture and the tradition of the Cypriot church, Lazarus was compelled to seek refuge away from Jerusalem to avoid the anger of the high priests and the pharisees, who wanted to kill him, “...the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed in Jesus” (John 12:10-11). Many Christians too ... were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about. Stephen travelled as far as Phoenicia, and Cyprus, and Antioch ...; just like Stephen, Lazarus would have had to leave Judea to seek refuge in another country. This location was Kition in Cyprus.

    When Apostle Paul and Apostle Barnabas travelled to Cyprus, they ordained Lazarus as the first Bishop of Kition. This is why all episcopal thrones in Larnaca have the icon of St. Lazarus instead of Christ, which is the standard custom of the church.

    Another famous tradition related to Lazarus is the discovery of Mount Athos in 52 AD by the Theotokos. Lazarus was very close to the Virgin Mary and he was very grieved that he could not return to Jerusalem to visit her (he was still in fear of the Jews). The Theotokos learned of his sorrow and sent him a letter to comfort him. She asked that he might send a ship to her that she might visit him in Cyprus. With great joy, Lazarus sent a ship to the Holy Land to bring the Virgin Mary and John, the beloved disciple to Cyprus for a visit. However on their journey, a great storm blew them off course and carried them to the shores of Ephesus and then the ship to the shores of Athos, Greece. Unaware that divine providence had brought her to this area, the Virgin Mary completely taken by the beauty of the area, prayed to her son that this could be her garden devoted to prayer to "fight the good fight of faith". Having converted, blessed and established a new Christian community from the local idolaters they set sail for Cyprus and met with Lazarus.
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    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    No, you can't get booted out of heaven. Its not possible to "screw up" in heaven. And if a soul gets to purgatory, from a Catholic standpoint, they'll definitely make it to heaven, they just have to go through some type of suffering first. What exactly that entails is not definitively defined by the Church.

    That’s what I figured would be the explanation, but I am not familiar with purgatory as that is not a teaching of the Orthodox Church so I didn’t want to answer in case I was incorrect. Thank you for the explanation!
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ



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  11. #9
    For the mainstream evangelical, there is no in between. Once in heaven the redemptive process is complete.
    Do something Dodgers.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    For the mainstream evangelical, there is no in between. Once in heaven the redemptive process is complete.
    When do mainstream evangelicals believe this entrance into Heaven and immutable condition occurs?
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    When do mainstream evangelicals believe this entrance into Heaven and immutable condition occurs?
    At death.
    Do something Dodgers.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    At death.
    This does counter the early Church’s understanding however since the immutable condition of the person does not occurs until the General Resurrection. It is for this reason that the Church has always prayed for the departed because the prayers of the Church (both militant and triumphant) are believed to assist the departed souls in anticipation of the Coming Judgment.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  15. #13
    I understand this, and it’s what our church teaches. I’m just not sure I am on board. Jesus said, “Today you will be with me in paradise.”

    Heaven is already being populated with believers. I’m not sure what form that takes, but Paul said, “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” It’s hard to argue with that.
    Do something Dodgers.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    I understand this, and it’s what our church teaches. I’m just not sure I am on board. Jesus said, “Today you will be with me in paradise.”

    Heaven is already being populated with believers. I’m not sure what form that takes, but Paul said, “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” It’s hard to argue with that.
    The good thief was in Paradise, which is in the presence of God, but he did not enter into the eschatologic Kingdom (aka Heaven) which will occur at the end of days, when God will be all in all and there will be a rebirth and new creation. The good thief awaits for the Parousia and his bodily resurrection just as all the saints do who have ever lived. He is paradise, but not in the Kingdom of Heaven.

    St. Paul’s quote is true in that the disembodied saints are indeed present with the Lord, just as all those who die having lived holy and repentant lives. But this is not the same thing as entering into the Kingdom of Heaven. There’s is a condition of anticipation and exist mysteriously in a foretaste of the paradise to come. However, until the Parousia and the General Resurrection, when they will rejoin into their body now spiritualized and santicified, nothing is immutable and thus even the lives of those who did not live holy lives may find salvation at the Judgment through the prayers of the Church.

    A common American Christian thing to say to someone who lost a loved one is: “They are now with the Lord and in peace”. That would be appropriate to say when that someone was known for having lived a holy and repentent life, and who lived the Gospel. (Unfortunately, not many live such lives). But the more appropriate and Christian thing to say (and what is said in the older Christian Churches) to those who were not renowned for living saintly lives is: May he find forgiveness and peace. That is, to pray to God to forgive them for any sins they have committed in their life.
    Last edited by TER; 06-09-2019 at 03:29 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by RonZeplin View Post
    Catholics believe in purgatory, where you might do some time before getting into heaven.

    But is it possible to get booted out of heaven if you screw up there? Despite having gone to Catholic schools through the 9th grade, I don't know the answer.

    I might have forgotten a few of the finer points, in the intervening decades.
    Nah. I was taught purgatory is where you go for purification if you die in sin but are in God's grace.
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  18. #16
    To be honest, it was not the hope of heaven that drew me to Jesus. The older I get the more I think about it. I’m certainly not afraid to die.

    I get that there are layers or phases to the eternal state, and I believe that. It’s just too close to the idea of soul sleep that makes me not quite go all the way.
    Do something Dodgers.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    To be honest, it was not the hope of heaven that drew me to Jesus. The older I get the more I think about it. I’m certainly not afraid to die.

    I get that there are layers or phases to the eternal state, and I believe that. It’s just too close to the idea of soul sleep that makes me not quite go all the way.

    Soul sleep is a heresy of the past 150 years. Has nothing to do with the Christian teachings. The departed never sleep
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  21. #18
    The parable of Lazarus and the rich man is the greatest parable of Christ regarding the state of those who die before the General Resurrection. The poor man was in ‘Abraham’s bosom’, not the Kingdom of Heaven. He also was wide awake and well aware of what was happening in the world.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Soul sleep is a heresy of the past 150 years. Has nothing to do with the Christian teachings. The departed never sleep
    That’s why I want to be clear.
    Do something Dodgers.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    That’s why I want to be clear.
    It is good to be cautious.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    To be honest, it was not the hope of heaven that drew me to Jesus.
    This reminds me of a teaching of one of the Fathers of the Church. There are three reasons why people are drawn to Christ and follow His commandments. The first is the fear of judgement and of hell. That is the lowest and most base reason. The next is to enter Heaven. The last, which is the greatest reason and the way of the Saints is out of pure love for God.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    I understand this, and its what our church teaches. Im just not sure I am on board. Jesus said, Today you will be with me in paradise.

    Heaven is already being populated with believers. Im not sure what form that takes, but Paul said, To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Its hard to argue with that.
    The white throne judgment does not happen until after the millennium. When we die, we all go to paradise but there is a right side and the side divided by a gulf where people were not properly taught the WORD of God--so the millennium (the Lord's Day) will be a time for teaching while Satan is locked up for 1,000 years.

    Luke 16:26
    And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

    Luke 16:19-31 speaks of Lazarus and the Rich man. Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham on the right side of the gulf in Paradise. The rich man was on the other side of the gulf and couldn't pass over.

    26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
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  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    The white throne judgment does not happen until after the millennium. When we die, we all go to paradise but there is a right side and the side divided by a gulf where people were not properly taught the WORD of God--so the millennium (the Lord's Day) will be a time for teaching while Satan is locked up for 1,000 years.
    Just to be clear to any who reads this: the explanation above is not what what any of the early Church Fathers teach. People can interpret the Scriputres to mean that, but that was not interpretation of any of the Christian Saints.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Just to be clear to any who reads this: the explanation above is not what what any of the early Church Fathers teach. People can interpret the Scriputres to mean that, but that was not interpretation of any of the Christian Saints.
    It was of explanation from the Bible Scholar Ethelbert William Bullinger. Luke was a physician so he used a medical term--gulf.

    E.W. Bullinger's Companion Bible Notes
    beside. Greek. epi. App-104.

    is = has been.

    gulf = chasm. A transliteration of the Greek chasma, from chasko, to gape. A medical word for an open wound.

    fixed = set fast, established. Compare Luke 9:51 (set His face). Romans 1:11. 2 Peter 1:12.

    would = desire to. Greek thelo. App-102.

    to. Greek pros. App-101.

    cannot = are not (Greek. me. App-105) able.

    neither. Greek. mede.
    My website: https://www.theherbsofthefield.com/

    "No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another. ~ Charles Dickens



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    It was of explanation from the Bible Scholar Ethelbert William Bullinger. Luke was a physician so he used a medical term--gulf.

    E.W. Bullinger's Companion Bible Notes
    beside. Greek. epi. App-104.

    is = has been.

    gulf = chasm. A transliteration of the Greek chasma, from chasko, to gape. A medical word for an open wound.

    fixed = set fast, established. Compare Luke 9:51 (set His face). Romans 1:11. 2 Peter 1:12.

    would = desire to. Greek thelo. App-102.

    to. Greek pros. App-101.

    cannot = are not (Greek. me. App-105) able.

    neither. Greek. mede.
    It’s not the Greek term which I am referring to which is foreign to the teachings and interpretations of the Greek speaking Fathers of the Church.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    This does counter the early Church’s understanding however since the immutable condition of the person does not occurs until the General Resurrection. It is for this reason that the Church has always prayed for the departed because the prayers of the Church (both militant and triumphant) are believed to assist the departed souls in anticipation of the Coming Judgment.
    Is your understanding of the early Church's teaching that after a person in Christ dies, when they are away from the body and present with the Lord, up until the resurrection, it's possible that they will change their minds and decide to join the ranks of Satan?

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Just to be clear to any who reads this: the explanation above is not what what any of the early Church Fathers teach. People can interpret the Scriputres to mean that, but that was not interpretation of any of the Christian Saints.
    What part of what she said in that post do you believe no early church fathers taught?

  32. #28
    I think he is referring to soul sleep, which we both agree is incorrect teaching.
    Do something Dodgers.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    I think he is referring to soul sleep, which we both agree is incorrect teaching.
    But the quote he said that about didn't refer to soul sleep. And what it said about the millennium is a well attested teaching of the early church fathers, especially among the earliest of them. It was after the time of Origen and under his influence that later church fathers abandoned that formerly dominant belief in the Church. Granted, he may have been talking about another detail in the quote besides the point about the millennium.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    It’s not the Greek term which I am referring to which is foreign to the teachings and interpretations of the Greek speaking Fathers of the Church.
    Sometimes we have to study the Word ourselves with help from God for wisdom and understanding. The Companion Bible doesn't translate God's Word per se, it only translates the difference in the languages (tongues)--Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic. "Air" in Hebrew has a different meaning than the word "air" in Greek.

    A FIGURE is simply a word or a sentence thrown into a peculiar form, different from its original or simplest meaning or use. These forms are constantly used by every speaker and writer. It is impossible to hold the simplest conversation, or to write a few sentences without, it may be unconsciously, making use of figures. We may say, "the ground needs rain ": that is a plain, cold, matter-of-fact statement; but if we say "the ground is thirsty, " we immediately use a figure. It is not true to fact, and therefore it must be a figure. But how true to feeling it is! how full of warmth and life! Hence, we say, "the crops suffer "; we speak of "a hard heart, " "a rough man, " "an iron will. " In all these cases we take a word which has a certain, definite meaning, and apply the name, or the quality, or the act, to some other thing with which it is associated, by time or place, cause or effect, relation or resemblance.

    Some figures are common to many languages; others are peculiar to some one language. There are figures used in the English language, which have nothing that answers to them in Hebrew or Greek; and there are Oriental figures which have no counterpart in English; while there are some figures in various languages, arising from human infirmity and folly, which find, of course, no place in the word of God.

    It may be asked, "How are we to know, then, when words are to be taken in their simple, original form (i.e., literally), and when they are to be taken in some other and peculiar form (i.e., as a Figure)?" The answer is that, whenever and wherever it is possible, the words of Scripture are to be understood literally, but when a statement appears to be contrary to our experience, or to known fact, or revealed truth; or seems to be at variance with the general teaching of the Scriptures, then we may reasonably expect that some figure is employed. And as it is employed only to call our attention to some specially designed emphasis, we are at once bound to diligently examine the figure for the purpose of discovering and learning the truth that is thus emphasized.

    From non-attention to these Figures, translators have made blunders as serious as they are foolish. Sometimes they have translated the figure literally, totally ignoring its existence; sometimes they have taken it fully into account, and have translated, not according to the letter, but according to the spirit; sometimes they have taken literal words and translated them figuratively. Commentators and interpreters, from inattention to the figures, have been led astray from the real meaning of many important passages of God's Word; while ignorance of them has been the fruitful parent of error and false doctrine. It may be truly said that most of the gigantic errors of Rome, as well as the erroneous and conflicting views of the Lord's People, have their root and source, either in figuratively explaining away passages which should be taken literally, or in taking literally what has been thrown into a peculiar form or Figure of language: thus, not only falling into error, but losing the express teaching, and missing the special emphasis which the particular Figure was designed to impart to them.

    This is an additional reason for using greater exactitude and care when we are dealing with the words of God. Man's words are scarcely worthy of such study. Man uses figures, but often at random and often in ignorance or in error. But "the words of the Lord are pure words. " All His works are perfect, and when the Holy Spirit takes up and uses human words, He does so, we may be sure, with unerring accuracy, infinite wisdom, and perfect beauty.
    https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/bullinger.html
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