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Thread: Face It: You (Probably) Got a Tax Cut

  1. #1

    Face It: You (Probably) Got a Tax Cut

    Face It: You (Probably) Got a Tax Cut - April 14, 2019
    Studies consistently find that the 2017 law cut taxes for most Americans. Most of them don’t buy it.

    If you’re an American taxpayer, you probably got a tax cut last year. And there’s a good chance you don’t believe it.

    Ever since President Trump signed the Republican-sponsored tax bill in December 2017, independent analyses have consistently found that a large majority of Americans would owe less because of the law. Preliminary data based on tax filings has shown the same.

    Yet as the first tax filing season under the new law wraps up on Monday, taxpayers are skeptical. A survey conducted in early April for The New York Times by the online research platform SurveyMonkey found that just 40 percent of Americans believed they had received a tax cut under the law. Just 20 percent were certain they had done so. That’s consistent with previous polls finding that most Americans felt they hadn’t gotten a tax cut, and that a large minority thought their taxes had risen — though not even one in 10 households actually got a tax increase.

    To a large degree, the gap between perception and reality on the tax cuts appears to flow from a sustained — and misleading — effort by liberal opponents of the law to brand it as a broad middle-class tax increase.

    That effort began in the fall of 2017, when Republicans prepared to introduce legislation that models by the independent Tax Policy Center predicted could raise taxes on nearly a third of middle-class taxpayers. It continued through Mr. Trump’s signing of the law, even though the group’s models showed that the revised bill would raise taxes on relatively few in the middle class in the 2018 tax year.

    After the law went into effect, Democrats played down those estimates and instead highlighted projections that most Americans’ taxes are set to increase in 2026, after the individual tax cuts in the law are scheduled to expire.

    The messaging stuck. In December 2017, polling for The Times by SurveyMonkey showed that nearly two-thirds of Americans — and three-quarters of Democrats — did not believe they would get a tax cut from the new law. In this month’s poll, three-quarters of Democrats again said they did not think they got a tax cut from the law, and the overall share of Americans who said they had benefited rose only slightly from the 2017 expectations.

    In convincing people that they would not benefit, “the Democrats did a very good job,” said Howard Gleckman, a senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center. “They were able to put that into the public perception, and the reality has been unable to break that perception.”

    Tax Cuts by the Numbers

    Experts are divided on whether the tax law was a good idea. But there is little disagreement on this core point: Most people got a tax cut.

    The Tax Policy Center estimates that 65 percent of people paid less under the law and that just 6 percent paid more. (The rest saw little change to their taxes.)

    Other analyses reached similar conclusions. The Joint Committee on Taxation — Congress’s nonpartisan team of tax analysts — found that every income group would see a tax cut on average. So did the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, a left-leaning think tank that was sharply critical of the law. In fact, that group went even further: In a December 2017 analysis, it found that every income group in every state would pay less on average under the law in 2019.

    So far, tax season seems to be playing out more or less as the experts predicted. H&R Block, the tax-preparation giant, said last week that two-thirds of returning customers had paid less tax this year than last (excluding people who owed no tax in either year). Taxes were down, on average, in every state.

    “The vast majority of people did get a tax cut,” said Nathan Rigney, an analyst at H&R Block’s Tax Institute. That’s been clear all along, he added, “just now we have real data to back that up.”
    ...
    Surveys consistently show that what bothers Americans most about the tax system is not that they pay too much but that they think corporations and the wealthy pay too little, said Vanessa Williamson, a political scientist at the Brookings Institution who studies public attitudes toward taxation. The tax law only sharpened those concerns.
    ...
    More: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/14/b...e-tax-cut.html
    Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
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  3. #2
    not here...

    why I should worship the state (who apparently is the only party that can possess guns without question).
    The state's only purpose is to kill and control. Why do you worship it? - Sola_Fide

    Baptiste said.
    At which point will Americans realize that creating an unaccountable institution that is able to pass its liability on to tax-payers is immoral and attracts sociopaths?

  4. #3
    Heh. Liberals don't like tax cuts anyway, I don't know what they'd be upset about.


    I think people are just looking at the returns. My tax return was lower for the 2017 tax year than 2018 but I also paid less during the year (what gets automatically deducted from my paycheck every 2 weeks).

    So people are probably upset that they're not getting a big chunk on tax day for their summer vacation, but they really should be asking themselves what they blew their paychecks on throughout the year. Americans should really learn how to save.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Elliot's The Hollow Men

  5. #4

  6. #5
    This dispute may continue.

    But what is undisputed is that big gummit spending is setting new records as is national debt.
    So the sure-shot headline here would be, "Face it, you got a big chunk of national debt'.
    Or don't face it, let the childrens/grandchildrens face it.

    Not sure if NYT neocons are still on 'Thank You Mr. MAGA for increasing MIC military spending, big gummit spending and ballooning national debt' while trying to give limited time offer lollypop to some of the hardworking minions. There is ZERO mention of Balloon or Debt in the NYT article. Thought this used to be Dems MO, when did this start working on small gummit, fiscally responsible communities?






    PS: How many got the Affordable Care Act penalty?

  7. #6
    I did worse than I've ever done. Now that Trumps made it virtually impossible for me to claim work related expenses with the new B.S. cutoff.
    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect - Mark Twain

  8. #7
    To a large degree, the gap between perception and reality on the tax cuts appears to flow from a sustained — and misleading — effort by liberal opponents of the law to brand it as a broad middle-class tax increase.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  9. #8
    I paid less throughout the year, finally got a return, and didn't owe thousands of dollars. I probably saved $5,000 - $6,000 this year.
    "I shall bring justice to Westeros. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that."
    -Stannis Baratheon



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    I did...about two grand
    Cool..

    better than nothing.

    I have not filed in 13 years,, and not had enough income to pay tax on.
    I know your tribulation and poverty--but you are rich--and the blasphemy of those claiming themselves to be Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

    But I still pay massive amounts of tax.. Gasoline (Wa St,, 3rd highest in nation) Tobacco, Cannabis 37% and I haven't had a Beer in a While.

    understanding that verse=Priceless
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  12. #10
    I paid zero in Federal last yr , Zero this year but I do owe the state 76.00 somehow , I had a pretty good day though Sat at the coin show in Bloomigton so I can buy Pete a beer . Lunch at the fairgrounds was only 2.50 ( ham & cheese sandwich , chips & drink ) and breakfast ( coffee & donuts ) was free with the 30 dollar table fee .
    Do something Danke

  13. #11
    The average tax payer owed zero in net taxes last year. Unless they got more money back than they paid in, they didn't get a tax cut.

    For 2017, 45% owed no taxes. For 2018, it was 44%.

    https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/22/pf/...ner/index.html

    45% of tax filers will owe nothing in federal income taxes this year

    May 22, 2018
    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/81...why-2018-04-16

    More than 44% of Americans pay no federal income tax

    Published: Feb 26, 2019
    http://fortune.com/2019/04/15/trump-tax-day-2019-cut/

    The Trump administration said Monday that the average family of four with an income of $75,000 will get a $2,000 tax cut. Before the law was enacted, the White House Council of Economic Advisers estimated that the average household income would increase by at least $4,000 annually thanks to the tax law. They didn’t specify the size of the household.
    But $75,000 a year is not an average family.

    That’s despite an analysis by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center that two out of three taxpayers would see their taxes go down. The biggest benefits, though, go to the top 1 percent, who are projected to receive an average tax break of $62,000 in 2018, while the middle one-fifth of income earners got an average tax cut of $1,090 — about $20 per week.

    The law appears to have met a similar political fate as President Barack Obama’s stimulus package in 2009, in which most Americans received a one-year tax break but the incremental gains in paychecks were so small that most didn’t notice.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 04-16-2019 at 01:55 PM.
    "There is always a tweet. That has become accepted fact in the Trump presidency: For every pronouncement the President makes, there is at least one tweet from his past that directly contradicts his current view." -CNN

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  14. #12
    Surveys consistently show that what bothers Americans most about the tax system is not that they pay too much but that they think corporations and the wealthy pay too little
    The main taking point today on MSM is that “corporations don’t pay their fair share”. Heard it a couple of times.

    Divide and conquer, push class warfare, standard operating procedure for all variations of Marxists.
    Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    The average tax payer owed zero in net taxes last year. Unless they got more money back than they paid in, they didn't get a tax cut.

    For 2017, 45% owed no taxes. For 2018, it was 44%.
    If the shoe fits wear it, resident propaganda officer.
    Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  16. #14
    You didn't get a tax cut. Rising tariffs are taxes on everyone.
    “Maybe I forgot to mention something to you: I don’t believe in queens. You think freedom is something you can give and take on a whim. But to your people, freedom is as essential as air. And without it, there is no life. There is only darkness.” -Zaheer

    "A man chooses. A slave obeys."-Andrew Ryan

    "There are three things the parasite hates: free markets, free will, and free men."-Andrew Ryan

  17. #15
    Why GOP-MAGA wing was so shy to talk about this great accomplishment during midterms? Could have saved the House and kept control of various Congressional committees now creating Obstruction of Justice headaches if they had raised their voices forcefully to remind public of 'tax cuts' blessings.



    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    You didn't get a tax cut. Rising tariffs are taxes on everyone.
    Details like that can tarnish the neatness of an otherwise fantastic campaign slogan.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    You didn't get a tax cut. Rising tariffs are taxes on everyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post
    Details like that can tarnish the neatness of an otherwise fantastic campaign slogan.



    Why GOP was so shy to talk about during midterms? Could have saved the House if they had raised their voices to remind public of 'tax cuts'.
    Tariffs are a massive improvement over income taxes so even IF the cost of tariffs equals the income tax cut it doesn't matter.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
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  20. #17
    I got $1000 back.
    "Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."

    Calvin Coolidge

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Tariffs are a massive improvement over income taxes so even IF the cost of tariffs equals the income tax cut it doesn't matter.
    There was a presidential candidate at one time who wanted to abolish the income tax and instead have a flat tariff to fund a minimal Federal government...
    Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    There was a presidential candidate at one time who wanted to abolish the income tax and instead have a flat tariff to fund a minimal Federal government...
    What was his name?
    I can't seem to remember.

    Roger Peters or something?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Globalist View Post
    I got $1000 back.
    Probably time to think about putting 10.00 back to buy Oyarde a beer in the future .
    Do something Danke

  24. #21
    Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    The average tax payer owed zero in net taxes last year. Unless they got more money back than they paid in, they didn't get a tax cut.

    For 2017, 45% owed no taxes. For 2018, it was 44%.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    If the shoe fits wear it, resident propaganda officer.
    If you paid net zero taxes you are not a tax payer and shouldn't be counted in the denominator of tax payers.

    I paid significantly less income taxes in 2018 compared to 2017 despite a higher income and going to the standard deduction from itemized.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    What was his name?
    I can't seem to remember.

    Roger Peters or something?
    Good old TJ.

  26. #23
    Fact is most people pd less tax and had less tax with held . Is that not a good thing for the people paying ? I would have appreciated it a great deal during the decades I was paying five figures in tax ea yr and feeding kids .
    Do something Danke

  27. #24
    Most people don't get a bonus, but for those who did, this year's bonuses were an averaged a whopping one cent more than last year's.

    https://www.pastemagazine.com/articl...e-cent-bo.html

    Trump's Tax Cuts Benefit Workers with a Whopping One-Cent Bonus


    Trickle-down economics don’t actually benefit the average worker. Surprise!

    Republicans heralded their Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017 as a boon to the typical American worker’s wages and/or bonuses. Companies released press statements shortly after the bill passed, declaring that they were able to dish out bonuses thanks to the tax cuts, a number of which were actually already going to happen before the legislation was enacted. Like most GOP fiscal policy, the TCJA was truly designed to benefit corporations, while superficial claims of financial gain for the middle class are easily refuted when you take a closer look at the numbers.

    Lawrence Mishel of the Economic Policy Institute writes that the average worker actually received a bonus of a whole dang penny between December 2017 and December 2018, according to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics’ Employer Costs for Employee Compensation. “The new data show that bonuses actually fell $0.22 between December 2017 and December 2018, and the average bonus for 2018 was just $0.01 higher than in 2017,” Mishel explains.

    He adds, “An examination of overall wage and compensation growth does not provide much in the way of bragging rights for tax cutters, especially given the expectation of rising wages and compensation amidst low unemployment.” Indeed, bonuses have become more popular in the last four years because, in the long term, they are cheaper than actual raises but provide the once-off morale-boost to keep workers placated. It’s the financial equivalent of handing someone a Flintstones band-aid when they really need a tourniquet and a whole roll of gauze.
    "There is always a tweet. That has become accepted fact in the Trump presidency: For every pronouncement the President makes, there is at least one tweet from his past that directly contradicts his current view." -CNN

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Tariffs are a massive improvement over income taxes so even IF the cost of tariffs equals the income tax cut it doesn't matter.
    Yes, because the income tax didn't take enough from people to fund your massive security police state. Only mass taxes on everyone and the central state seizing control of all economic activity could do that for you.


    Other than that, tariffs are stupid.

    Amiti et al (2019) report statistical evidence that the 2018 tariffs and retaliatory measures taken by U.S. trading partners have increased both input and final consumer prices, disrupted global supply chains, and resulted in deadweight loss of billions of dollars over and above the tens of billions of dollars in new taxes filling government coffers. Fajgelbaum et al (2019) reach similar conclusions about the volume of global trade and losses to the U.S. economy.

    ...Tariffs are sometimes politically easier to swallow than other tax increases because the costs seem indirect and diluted throughout the economy while the supposed benefits seem more direct and carry a degree of sympathy. Our analysis shows that this intuition is flat wrong. Tariffs cost American households and firms billions, and fail to provide help to ailing industries promised by their proponents.

    Read the full report.
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    https://www.aier.org/article/trade-w...fieRw.facebook
    You know, it occurs to me that tariffs socialize the cost of the State while hiding its true expense and harming everyone across the nation. No wonder you National Socialists love it.
    “Maybe I forgot to mention something to you: I don’t believe in queens. You think freedom is something you can give and take on a whim. But to your people, freedom is as essential as air. And without it, there is no life. There is only darkness.” -Zaheer

    "A man chooses. A slave obeys."-Andrew Ryan

    "There are three things the parasite hates: free markets, free will, and free men."-Andrew Ryan

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    There was a presidential candidate at one time who wanted to abolish the income tax and instead have a flat tariff to fund a minimal Federal government...
    His father was better.

    “Maybe I forgot to mention something to you: I don’t believe in queens. You think freedom is something you can give and take on a whim. But to your people, freedom is as essential as air. And without it, there is no life. There is only darkness.” -Zaheer

    "A man chooses. A slave obeys."-Andrew Ryan

    "There are three things the parasite hates: free markets, free will, and free men."-Andrew Ryan

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    Yes, because the income tax didn't take enough from people to fund your massive security police state. Only mass taxes on everyone and the central state seizing control of all economic activity could do that for you.


    Other than that, tariffs are stupid.



    You know, it occurs to me that tariffs socialize the cost of the State while hiding its true expense and harming everyone across the nation. No wonder you National Socialists love it.
    LOL
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    His father was better.

    Lower taxes

    Paul's campaign slogan for 2004 was "The Taxpayers' Best Friend!"[42] He would completely eliminate the income tax by shrinking the size and scope of government to what he considers its Constitutional limits, noting that he has never voted to approve an unbalanced budget; he has observed that even scaling back spending to 2000 levels eliminates the need for the 42% of the budget accounted for by individual income tax receipts.[20] He has asserted that Congress had no power to impose a direct income tax and supports the repeal of the Sixteenth Amendment.[43] Rather than taxing personal income, which he says assumes that the government owns individuals' lives and labor, he prefers the federal government to be funded through excise taxes and/or uniform, non-protectionist tariffs.[19]

    More at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politi...ns_of_Ron_Paul
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    uniform, non-protectionist
    You even bolded it for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Trump - accidentally killing a few children in the fight against Islamic extremism so Soros doesn't murder thousands of children
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Trump hasn't even been in 6 months, you can't call him a boondoggle President unless he has overseen a military boondoggle for at least a year or two.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    When Donald Trump talks about torture, I don't know what he really believes for sure, but he gets attacked on what he says unjustly by the media and many people here

  34. #30
    Extremely simple solution. Allow people to decide for themselves if they want to fill out & pay their taxes on the old system or the new one.

    If you like the old tax system you can keep the old tax system. If you want the new system you can use the new system!

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