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Thread: Jack Ma defends the 'blessing' of a 12-hour working day

  1. #1

    Jack Ma defends the 'blessing' of a 12-hour working day

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47934513

    15 April 2019

    The Chinese billionaire and co-founder of the online shopping giant Alibaba has continued to argue for a 9am to 9pm working day, and a six-day week.

    Jack Ma's backing for the so-called "996 system" is being hotly debated in the Chinese media.

    Last week, Mr Ma wrote that without the system, China's economy was "very likely to lose vitality and impetus".

    His stance was backed by fellow tech entrepreneur Richard Liu, the boss of ecommerce giant JD.com.

    On Friday, Mr Ma called the opportunity to work 996 hours a "blessing".

    Mr Liu said years of rapid economic growth in China had boosted the number of "slackers".

    The country has enjoyed economic growth averaging 10% for more than 25 years - from the late 1970s to the mid 2000s - but in subsequent years that has slowed to nearer 6%.

    The entrepreneurs' comments come amid reports this week that JD.com is cutting jobs.

    Mr Liu, who started the company that would become JD.com in 1998, recently wrote about his attitude to work, saying he used to set his alarm to wake him up every two hours to make sure he could offer his customers a full, 24-hour, service.

    He wrote: "JD in the last four, five years has not made any eliminations, so the number of staff has expanded rapidly, the number of people giving orders has grown and grown, while the those who are working have fallen.

    "Instead, the number of slackers has rapidly grown! If this carries on, JD will have no hope! And the company will only be heartlessly kicked out of the market! Slackers are not my brothers!"

    Mr Ma co-founded Alibaba, sometimes called China's eBay, in 1999 and has seen it become one of the world's biggest internet companies.

    The company's market value is now approximately $490bn (£374bn), and Mr Ma's personal wealth is estimated at around $40bn.

    Last year, he announced that he would step down as executive chairman in the near future.



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  3. #2
    Those hours would be an improvement over what I do now

  4. #3
    Slavery is good for business.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by VIDEODROME View Post
    Those hours would be an improvement over what I do now
    You driving a truck ?
    Do something Danke

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Slavery is good for business.
    I once ran an automotive stainless steel exhaust tubing manufacturing plant . We often worked 11 or 12 hour shifts and I cannot say the productivity was 10 or 20 percent improved over the ordinary ten hour shift on a regular basis. Basically I think the guys just subconsciously pace themselves to last what really became about a 14 hour day for them ( more for me ). Half hour drive , arrive half hour early , eat something ,drink some coffee, smoke some cigarettes , work 12 hours , add another 1/2 hour for lunch , half hour drive home .14 hours . Long day in the summer in a pr of wet steel toed boots and no AC . So often you are paying people more for less . Two hours of Time and a Half ( 30 percent increase ) for what should be twenty percent more work and might end up closer to Five percent . Not really all that gratifying to any party in the deal .
    Do something Danke

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    I once ran an automotive stainless steel exhaust tubing manufacturing plant . We often worked 11 or 12 hour shifts and I cannot say the productivity was 10 or 20 percent improved over the ordinary ten hour shift on a regular basis. Basically I think the guys just subconsciously pace themselves to last what really became about a 14 hour day for them ( more for me ). Half hour drive , arrive half hour early , eat something ,drink some coffee, smoke some cigarettes , work 12 hours , add another 1/2 hour for lunch , half hour drive home .14 hours . Long day in the summer in a pr of wet steel toed boots and no AC . So often you are paying people more for less . Two hours of Time and a Half ( 30 percent increase ) for what should be twenty percent more work and might end up closer to Five percent . Not really all that gratifying to any party in the deal .
    That's where Chinese employee disciplinary practices come in handy.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #7
    Own your own business and the hours are 24-7.

  9. #8
    If you do what you love and get paid, a 12 hour work day is heaven. If it is drudgery that you do for a paycheck, then it is soul crushing.



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  11. #9
    What is with all the counterfeit junk on ali babba ?
    Do something Danke

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    If you do what you love and get paid, a 12 hour work day is heaven. If it is drudgery that you do for a paycheck, then it is soul crushing.
    QFT
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    You driving a truck ?
    Yeah, still trucking 70hr weeks.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by ATruepatriot View Post
    Own your own business and the hours are 24-7.
    Ya , I worked 6 hours today . Thats it until next week though .
    Do something Danke

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    Ya , I worked 6 hours today . Thats it until next week though .
    Some businesses can be like that. lol

    I've had slow seasons where I only had to physically apply myself a few hours a week until business picked up. But... The Mind is always at work 24-7 trying to figure how to drum up more business, improve the business, cut overhead, stressing over the bills and challenges, Etc. There are very few minutes when you can just forget about it and get it out of your mind. You even dream about it and if you don't then you are not very serious about it.

  16. #14
    For someone in poverty who depends on that job for their and their family's survival, Jack Ma is right, of course. Any regulations that made it harder for employers and their employees to enter into that arrangement would merely be punishing people for trying to as work hard to survive to the same degree that most human beings throughout the history of the race took for granted. It would also punish all of us consumers who benefit from what that labor produces.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    For someone in poverty who depends on that job for their and their family's survival, Jack Ma is right, of course.
    Do you know anybody like that?

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Do you know anybody like that?
    I wouldn't talk about them if I did. But throughout the world there are many people like that. Over human history, they were the majority, and even today they are not nearly as rare in some parts of the world as they are in the US.

    And of course even if someone's motivation to work that many hours in a factory job is not just to make ends meet, whatever their motivation is, if they choose that over the alternatives they see available to them, then Jack Ma is still right about it being a blessing, and I'm still right about any regulations that impede their ability to get that job being unjust.



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  20. #17
    If someone needs to work 72 hours a week to "make ends meet" while working for a multi billion dollar company, it is no different than slavery. For every dollar of value these workers are providing to their company, they are getting a fraction of a fraction of a penny in return. But god forbid such companies be taxed, that would prevent them from expanding and creating more wageslaves!

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    I wouldn't talk about them if I did. But throughout the world there are many people like that. Over human history, they were the majority, and even today they are not nearly as rare in some parts of the world as they are in the US.

    And of course even if someone's motivation to work that many hours in a factory job is not just to make ends meet, whatever their motivation is, if they choose that over the alternatives they see available to them, then Jack Ma is still right about it being a blessing, and I'm still right about any regulations that impede their ability to get that job being unjust.
    All my Kids are in the medical field and work 12 hour shifts, it's pretty much a standard in the industry. One daughter and her husband have too, their monthly health insurance commitment out of their pay is $1,200 a month. their rent before utilities is only $900 a month. They make decent money and are still only living paycheck to paycheck working 12 hour shifts and picking up any extra days they can.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    If someone needs to work 72 hours a week to "make ends meet" while working for a multi billion dollar company, it is no different than slavery.
    It's totally different. By your definition of slavery, a self-sufficient homesteader living out in the wilderness is a slave.

    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    For every dollar of value these workers are providing to their company, they are getting a fraction of a fraction of a penny in return.
    I doubt that. But suppose it's true. How much the company makes from their labor only has relevance inasmuch as it affects the motivations of that company to pay them. If the situation is as you describe, then the employee ought to be able to demand more or they'll quit, and the company will agree to pay them more and still make plenty of money off them, or else a competitor will. If this is not the case, then it's because of some government intrusion into the market that stifles that competition. The solution to that situation is not to make it harder for companies to hire these workers at low wages, but to make it easier, and let their wages go up in response to the ensuing market realities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    But god forbid such companies be taxed, that would prevent them from expanding and creating more wageslaves!
    I hope this isn't sarcasm, because it's a true statement about what God really does forbid.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 04-18-2019 at 08:41 AM.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by ATruepatriot View Post
    All my Kids are in the medical field and work 12 hour shifts, it's pretty much a standard in the industry. One daughter and her husband have too, their monthly health insurance commitment out of their pay is $1,200 a month. their rent before utilities is only $900 a month. They make decent money and are still only living paycheck to paycheck working 12 hour shifts and picking up any extra days they can.
    I know what you mean, but depending on their specific jobs, in the cases you're talking about I suspect that some of those 12-hour shifts are on work schedules that only come out to 36 or 48 hours per week. It's probably not 12 hours a day for 6-7 days a week, and probably not even 5, or I suspect they would take home more. I don't know the specifics of your kids' situations, but from what I know about jobs in medical fields that sound like what you describe, that would likely be the case.

    Or, they could be medical doctors in their residencies. In that case, they really do work ~80 hour weeks. But that's a temporary situation, and they will either find their hours going back down to something easier while their pay also goes up considerably once they finish their residencies, or else if they do continue to work those hours, it will be by choice, and still with much higher pay.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 04-18-2019 at 09:16 AM.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    It's totally different. By your definition of slavery, a self-sufficient homesteader living out in the wilderness is a slave.
    Are you really this stupid? Apparently so. A self-sufficient homesteader is reaping 100% of the benefits of their labor. For the most profitable companies, that percentage is far less than 100%... obviously. Much closer to 1% than 100%.

    I doubt that. But suppose it's true. How much the company makes from their labor only has relevance inasmuch as it affects the motivations of that company to pay them. If the situation is as you describe, then the employee ought to be able to demand more or they'll quit, and the company will agree to pay them more and still make plenty of money off them, or else a competitor will.
    Their competitors have the same exact goal, to earn as much money as possible for their shareholders. When the vast majority of jobs in an area are providing the bare minimum in compensation and long hours every week, how many options do workers really have? This "negotiate for more pay or get a new job" sounds good in theory, but it's pure fantasy for the vast majority of people in practice. But keep defending the desires of the ultra wealthy to extract as much money from their workers as possible, with as little compensation as possible.

    I hope this isn't sarcasm, because it's a true statement about what God really does forbid.
    No, it isn't. And if you find me another verse that indicates the opposite position, why does your god inspired book have contradictions? Because there is no good reason to believe your book or your god have any truth in them whatsoever.

    https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom%2013.6%E2%80%937

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    I know what you mean, but depending on their specific jobs, in the cases you're talking about I suspect that some of those 12-hour shifts are on work schedules that only come out to 36 or 48 hours per week. It's probably not 12 hours a day for 6-7 days a week, and probably not even 5, or I suspect they would take home more. I don't know the specifics of your kids' situations, but from what I know about jobs in medical fields that sound like what you describe, that would likely be the case.

    Or, they could be medical doctors in their residencies. In that case, they really do work ~80 hour weeks. But that's a temporary situation, and they will find either find their hours going back down to something easier while their pay also goes up considerably once they finish their residencies, or else if they do continue to work those hours, it will be by choice, and still with much higher pay.
    Here is the situation they find themselves in. Two Surgical assistants and two Registered Nurses. They are all "supposed" to be scheduled as you say weekly. But because companies are now forced to cater to the wimpy crybaby millennials or get sued there is always a situation of short staffing. Companies have been forced to adopt policies that put a priority on fitting work schedules around their lifestyles, rather than them fit their lifestyle around their work responsibilities. It's backwards and creates a very unproductive environment that puts an unnecessary load on those who do have good work ethics. Now here is the rock and hard place. until this last tax season there was too big of a jump in their tax bracket depending on the 36 hour week and a 5 or 6 day week with the overtime. The tax bracket it places them into for that pay period almost doubles their tax liability. While their take home net is indeed more to help pay the bills, it is not as much as it truly should be and doesn't give them the real boost it should for their extra effort and good work ethics. It almost punishes them for being hard workers. But if they did not the whole place would go down and no one including themselves would have a job. Being raised in a business environment they understand that someone has to be responsible and show up to work or the whole thing goes down. It is now productive workers taking up the slack for a whole lot of worthless unproductive workers. It is a real problem in the health industry right now and bolsters health costs for everyone.
    Last edited by ATruepatriot; 04-18-2019 at 09:11 AM.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    Are you really this stupid? Apparently so. A self-sufficient homesteader is reaping 100% of the benefits of their labor.
    That's irrelevant. That 100% is still the same amount as the sweatshop worker, it's barely enough to survive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    For the most profitable companies, that percentage is far less than 100%... obviously. Much closer to 1% than 100%.
    So it's not a "fraction of a fraction of a penny for every dollar"?

    Still irrelevant though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    Their competitors have the same exact goal, to earn as much money as possible for their shareholders.
    That's right. I was talking about what would happen when these competitors are trying to earn as much as possible.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 04-18-2019 at 09:12 AM.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    No, it isn't. And if you find me another verse that indicates the opposite position
    You didn't pay close attention to what the verse you cited says. It only commands the paying of taxes, not the levying of them.

    And even at that, notice that it strictly only commands to pay what you owe, not what you don't owe (though this qualification makes no difference to my main point here).

    Nothing in the verse actually gives anyone, including the powers to which it refers, moral permission to steal. By analogy, when Jesus told his disciples to turn the other cheek, he wasn't saying that the person striking them was being let off the hook in God's judgment. Their act of aggression is still prohibited by God's law, despite the fact that the way of Jesus was to submit to it.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    That's irrelevant. That 100% is still the same amount as the sweatshop worker, it's barely enough to survive.



    So it's not a "fraction of a fraction of a penny for every dollar"?

    Still irrelevant though.



    That's right. I was talking about what would happen when these competitors are trying to earn as much as possible.
    You keep claiming irrelevancy, yet you are not capable of distinguishing between the current wage-slave system and the slavery system of old in any way.

    Slaves picked cotton all day, their owner got all the rewards of the cotton, but provided some food, some clothes, and some shelter for the slave to continue working.
    Under such a 72 hour work week system, the worker will work all day, and the owner will get all the rewards of the work, but will provide the workers with enough money for some food, some clothes, and shelter and little else. The only difference I can see is that maybe the worker can seek a different employer, who may or may not be slightly better.

    The self sufficient homesteader, that you mentioned, is obviously not a slave. To whom would he be a slave? To his own survival necessities?

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    You keep claiming irrelevancy, yet you are not capable of distinguishing between the current wage-slave system and the slavery system of old in any way.
    Why do you think I'm not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    The self sufficient homesteader, that you mentioned, is obviously not a slave. To whom would he be a slave? To his own survival necessities?
    Exactly. Ergo, having to work 72 hours a week just to survive does not constitute slavery.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    You didn't pay close attention to what the verse you cited says. It only commands the paying of taxes, not the levying of them.

    And even at that, notice that it strictly only commands to pay what you owe, not what you don't owe (though this qualification makes no difference to my main point here).

    Nothing in the verse actually gives anyone, including the powers to which it refers, moral permission to steal. By analogy, when Jesus told his disciples to turn the other cheek, he wasn't saying that the person striking them was being let off the hook in God's judgment. Their act of aggression is still prohibited by God's law, despite the fact that the way of Jesus was to submit to it.
    No, you have no understanding whatsoever of the book you claim to be the word of god. You have warped the meaning of its passages to fit your own worldview. It's so obvious it's $#@!ing pathetic.

    This is what the chapter says:

    Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

    For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

    Those in authority are THE SERVANTS OF GOD. What is a servant? "a person who performs duties for others." The procurement of taxes by those in authority is thus done with the explicit endorsement of your god. Even if the one in authority demanded 100% taxation on your every belonging, then it is for your good, because rulers only bring punishment on the wrongdoer.


    The fact that ancap christians exist is honestly hilarious. Your book contains the most opaque endorsement of statism I have ever seen in my life.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Why do you think I'm not?



    Exactly. Ergo, having to work 72 hours a week just to survive does not constitute slavery.
    What does, in your opinion, constitute slavery? Not being able to choose who is your owner? It's a distinction without a difference
    Last edited by Influenza; 04-18-2019 at 10:02 AM.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    Those in authority are THE SERVANTS OF GOD. What is a servant?
    In the passage you're discussing, a servant is someone God uses to accomplish his own ends, in spite of the intentions of that agent. This is a special case of what the same book says a few chapters earlier, that God works all things (understood there to include evils) for the good of those who love him.

    This may sound odd to you, and I can't blame you if it does. But for those reading Romans with a background in the scriptures of Israel, as Paul took for granted from his audience, this is a completely normal position. God uses wicked rulers, even in their wicked deeds, as his servants. There are numerous similar claims all throughout the scriptures.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Jack Ma is a prime example of what gives “capitalism” a bad name.

    Anyone who works less than 12x6 is a slacker? A slacker is someone who plays video games all day and doesn’t have a job. There are plenty of them. Massive increases in productivity mean that the workweek can and should be reduced, for those who do not care to work more than a standard workweek. The US standard of 40 hours is arbitrary. It could easily be 36 (9x4).

    Those who want to work more would be free to, and as others have pointed out, business owners are on the job (or more accurately “on call”) all of the time.
    Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L
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