"It Belongs To The People, Not The Bankers" - Italy Moves To Seize Gold From Central Bank

[Zippyjuan]

I'm starting to enjoy the example of ineptness. The horse example really is a decent one to use when comparing the stability of metal value and purchasing power vrs the fluctuation in value and purchasing power of currency because both have spanned the ages as stable in cost/value. It was shared with me years ago by a professional economist as an example in this very same discussion.

So you don't have any horse prices to share? You make a claim and cannot support it?

[Superfluous Man]

Absolutely... The two have correlated in stable value throughout time.

I have not found that to be the case.

Can you point to a source for that claim that someone can check?

Also, when you say "value" I think what you mean is relative price. Only prices can be correlated quantitatively. Values cannot, because, again, value is subjective by definition.

[ATruepatriot]

Did that economist point to the actual data, or just make the claim?

He wrote a long article showing all the historical references to the price vrs denomination vrs one once of gold in each era. With some historical research the formulation could be reproduced. The later two are relatively easy. When Gold was $20 an once a horse cost $20. Right now an once of gold at $1,200 will buy you the same grade of horse as with one once in the 1800s. I remember it was the same with the Roman times, but I do not remember the exact cost price and denomination comparisons for that once of Gold to purchase that horse.

[Zippyjuan]

He wrote a long article showing all the historical references to the price vrs denomination vrs one once of gold in each era. With some historical research the formulation could be reproduced. The later two are relatively easy. When Gold was $20 an once a horse cost $20. Right now an once of gold at $1,200 will buy you the same grade of horse as with one once in the 1800s. I remember it was the same with the Roman times, but I do not remember the exact cost price and denomination comparisons for that once of Gold to purchase that horse.

I can find gold prices but am having troubles with horse prices. By law, gold prices were roughly $20 an ounce from 1792- 1946. http://onlygold.com/Info/Historical-Gold-Prices.asp

I do find this:

https://www.quora.com/How-much-did-i...1850s-or-1860s

In the west US it was possible to buy a horse for as little as $10, but a decent riding equine cost around $150, with a range of $120 (1861) to $185 (1865). A pack horse for the Oregon Trail cost $25 in the US in 1850, but a riding horse would run you $75. A saddle with saddle bags cost $25 in 1850, a horse blanket $2, and hay only cost 4 cents a kilo.

To give you an idea of cost adjusted for inflation, in 1850 a production worker earned 6 cents an hour, and by 1860 this wage had zoomed to 8 cents an hour. So to earn the price of a ten dollar horse, a production worker in 1850 would have to work for 167 hours (figure a 10 hour day, that's more than 2 weeks).

So a decent riding horse (average $150 with gold at $20 an ounce) would be 7.5 ounces of gold. With gold at about $1300 an ounce today, that would be about $10,000.

Today?

https://www.equine.com/price-guide

In fact, listings can range from free horses to steeds costing upwards of $100,000 – and sometimes far more for an elite show. However, most pleasure riders can find a good-natured, healthy trail horse for less than $5,000.

Nothing close to one ounce of gold- then or today. And about half the price today as in the 1800's in terms of gold. Relative prices changed over time.

[Zippyjuan]

Things have value not because of some magic properties an object may possess but because people decide it is worth something to them. And that can change over time. Aluminum was once considered more valuable than gold- because it was shiny and considered relatively rare. Then it turned out there was lots of it and it was not so rare. Tulips once had value because people thought they wanted them (and could hopefully resell them to somebody who liked them even more than they did). Prices soared. People got bored and prices collapsed. Gold (now that it is free from being tied to money) also undergoes whims. It does have industrial usage but most price is driven by fad and fear. When economic times get tougher, they buy more of it. When times get better, they lose interest. If you are in a desert, water is valuable. If you are in the middle of a flood, you might be willing to pay not for more water but to make the excess go away. The value is relative and changes. Nothing has fixed value.

[Superfluous Man]

He wrote a long article showing all the historical references to the price vrs denomination vrs one once of gold in each era. With some historical research the formulation could be reproduced. The later two are relatively easy. When Gold was $20 an once a horse cost $20. Right now an once of gold at $1,200 will buy you the same grade of horse as with one once in the 1800s. I remember it was the same with the Roman times, but I do not remember the exact cost price and denomination comparisons for that once of Gold to purchase that horse.

Oh good. What's his name? I'll look that up.

[ATruepatriot]

I can find gold prices but am having troubles with horse prices. By law, gold prices were roughly $20 an ounce from 1792- 1946. http://onlygold.com/Info/Historical-Gold-Prices.asp

I do find this:

https://www.quora.com/How-much-did-i...1850s-or-1860s



So a decent riding horse (average $150 with gold at $20 an ounce) would be 7.5 ounces of gold. With gold at about $1300 an ounce today, that would be about $10,000.

Today?

I can buy a decent horse for $1,200 right now.

https://lite.qwant.com/?q=Horses+for...ent=opensearch

And this is what it REALLY says at that link...

"Robert Flowers, former RETIRED but Still a Cowboy at USMC & BOEING (1976-2015)
Answered 24w ago · Author has 993 answers and 207.5k answer views

After the Civil War, my Great-grandfather mustered out of the Confederacy with his horse and revolver, plus his parole pay. The horse was valued at $10 and the saddle $15, but was listed as “retained 1 horse and saddle” on his parole paperwork. He headed west to California after stopping to see his parents. In San Francisco, he boarded the horse at a local OK Corral with the option it and his saddle would be rented out to pay for feeding the horse, (which otherwise would cost him forty cents a day for hay). He checked into a hotel, turned in his laundry with the Chinaman, went into a saloon… and woke up on a clipper ship outside the entry to San Francisco Bay & headed for China. Being unemployed, “recently Confederate” and completely destitute, he went to the Orient and back as an able bodied seaman. About 18 months later, he was back in ‘Frisco with a new identity as a “former sailor”… He picked up his horse and laundry and moved back to Arkansas, with the story “he was from California”. (When I was told the story, it was inferred the laundry also went to China and back, as the Chinaman grinned and said, “good timing” when giving him the laundry.)

Most of the nineteenth century a trail horse was 10–15 dollars, a saddle 20–50 dollars. It always cost far more to feed a horse hay each year than the purchase price of the horse.

2k Views · View 4 Upvoters

[Zippyjuan]

I can buy a decent horse for $1,200 right now.

https://lite.qwant.com/?q=Horses+for...ent=opensearch

And this is what it REALLY says at that link...

"Robert Flowers, former RETIRED but Still a Cowboy at USMC & BOEING (1976-2015)
Answered 24w ago · Author has 993 answers and 207.5k answer views

After the Civil War, my Great-grandfather mustered out of the Confederacy with his horse and revolver, plus his parole pay. The horse was valued at $10 and the saddle $15, but was listed as “retained 1 horse and saddle” on his parole paperwork. He headed west to California after stopping to see his parents. In San Francisco, he boarded the horse at a local OK Corral with the option it and his saddle would be rented out to pay for feeding the horse, (which otherwise would cost him forty cents a day for hay). He checked into a hotel, turned in his laundry with the Chinaman, went into a saloon… and woke up on a clipper ship outside the entry to San Francisco Bay & headed for China. Being unemployed, “recently Confederate” and completely destitute, he went to the Orient and back as an able bodied seaman. About 18 months later, he was back in ‘Frisco with a new identity as a “former sailor”… He picked up his horse and laundry and moved back to Arkansas, with the story “he was from California”. (When I was told the story, it was inferred the laundry also went to China and back, as the Chinaman grinned and said, “good timing” when giving him the laundry.)

Most of the nineteenth century a trail horse was 10–15 dollars, a saddle 20–50 dollars. It always cost far more to feed a horse hay each year than the purchase price of the horse.

2k Views · View 4 Upvoters

Is $1200 the average horse price? Or did you just search that price point?

Using the first link from your link, https://www.equine.com/horses-for-sale

few are below $10,000.

[ATruepatriot]

Oh good. What's his name? I'll look that up.

It's been years how do I know? Since it is an absolute "life or death matter" for everyone to prove me a liar I will try to chase it down. If I hadn't actually read it and found it to be creditable I would have never said a damned thing.

I do have to tell you though that you are absolutely right about value being subjective. What that horse could be purchased for in one place could cost 500% more in another place based on supply and demand. But that has to do with the price of the product not the purchasing power of the metal.

[Zippyjuan]

It's been years how do I know? Since it is an absolute "life or death matter" for everyone to prove me a liar I will try to chase it down. If I hadn't actually read it and found it to be creditable I would have never said a damned thing.

I do have to tell you though that you are absolutely right about value being subjective. What that horse could be purchased for in one place could cost 500% more in another place based on supply and demand. But that has to do with the price of the product not the purchasing power of the metal.

Metals too have supply and demand effecting their value/ prices which are subjective.

[ATruepatriot]

Is $1200 the average horse price? Or did you just search that price point?

Using the first link from your link, https://www.equine.com/horses-for-sale

few are below $10,000.

Keep going... Those are premium bred status symbols.

$1,200 is a "good deal" price on an average horse. Of course breeding and what the horse will be used for is all a different story and changes the price of course. As it does with EVERYTHING. I can buy a horse right now from my neighbor that has no breeding history at all but he has been "worked off of" at a ranch. There are status symbols and basic average "Workhorses".

Now see... you are tying me up with silly semantics when I could be looking for my reference for you. Typical obstructionism.

[ATruepatriot]

Metals too have supply and demand effecting their value/ prices which are subjective.

No the purchasing power of the metal stays stable, the purchasing power of the dollar changes when it is not based on a metal standard.

[Zippyjuan]

No the purchasing power of the metal stays stable, the purchasing power of the dollar changes when it is not based on a metal standard.

So there was zero price inflation/ deflation going on when were were on a metal standard. The purchasing power was stable.

[oyarde]

I can find gold prices but am having troubles with horse prices. By law, gold prices were roughly $20 an ounce from 1792- 1946. http://onlygold.com/Info/Historical-Gold-Prices.asp

I do find this:

https://www.quora.com/How-much-did-i...1850s-or-1860s



So a decent riding horse (average $150 with gold at $20 an ounce) would be 7.5 ounces of gold. With gold at about $1300 an ounce today, that would be about $10,000.

Today?

https://www.equine.com/price-guide



Nothing close to one ounce of gold- then or today. And about half the price today as in the 1800's in terms of gold. Relative prices changed over time.

Avg pay for a good cowboy on a good ranch was around 30.00 a month . That would also buy a good cow pony . Those prices were fairly stable throughout the 1860's , '70's , 80's and 90's . Might have dropped a little later as people began using other modes more . Now , yes I could buy a horse with what an ounce of gold brings so it all seems fairly close .

[oyarde]

Horses are kind of expensive to stable if you do not have your own hay . Danke used to keep some retarded horses so I figured I could borrow one of his there , ride it home and then just eat it .

[ATruepatriot]

Avg pay for a good cowboy on a good ranch was around 30.00 a month . That would also buy a good cow pony . Those prices were fairly stable throughout the 1860's , '70's , 80's and 90's . Might have dropped a little later as people began using other modes more

Yep. Green broke or unridden $15 to $20.

[Swordsmyth]

ECB To Italian Government: Your Gold Is Ours

[Paul799]

I don't understand the point of the discussion.

The gold reserves of a country belong to its citizens, not to a private financial entity.
What is to discuss about?

Whom belong USA's gold reserves?
To the American people or to the FED?
To the American people or to the financial houses that control the FED?
To the American People or to the Central Bank of the Central Banks, the Bank for International Settlements?

What's the point of discussing about a rhetorical question?

[Zippyjuan]

I don't understand the point of the discussion.

The gold reserves of a country belong to its citizens, not to a private financial entity.
What is to discuss about?

Whom belong USA's gold reserves?
To the American people or to the FED?
To the American people or to the financial houses that control the FED?
To the American People or to the Central Bank of the Central Banks, the Bank for International Settlements?

What's the point of discussing about a rhetorical question?

Actually the US Treasury owns the US gold reserves.

[devil21]

^^^^^^^^
The corporation owns the assets of the corporation.

Some claim the Treasury is just a subsidiary of the IMF. Sounds about right.

[Paul799]

Actually the US Treasury owns the US gold reserves.

Exactly

So, while the US treasury is allowed to own the US gold reserves, why are you discussing if the Italian treasury should be allowed to own the Italian gold reserves?

Why some of you have no problem with the US treasury owning the US gold reserves, but have one with the idea of the Italian treasury owning the Italian gold reserves?

Am I the only one here sensing some hypocrisy?

[Zippyjuan]

Exactly

So, while the US treasury is allowed to own the US gold reserves, why are you discussing if the Italian treasury should be allowed to own the Italian gold reserves?

Why some of you have no problem with the US treasury owning the US gold reserves, but have one with the idea of the Italian treasury owning the Italian gold reserves?

Am I the only one here sensing some hypocrisy?

I don't have a problem with either. It is up to Italy to decide how they want to handle their gold.

[PAF]

^^^^^^^^
The corporation owns the assets of the corporation.

Some claim the Treasury is just a subsidiary of the IMF. Sounds about right.

Bingo and claim are two different words ;-)

[devil21]

Bingo and claim are two different words ;-)

The 1933 gold "confiscation" was actually a business sale, since those that turned in their gold were paid for it. Ripped off, yes, but paid nonetheless.

I don't know if Italians went through the same "confiscation" or not (Italy did declare sovereign bankruptcy after WWI just like the US did, along with most of the rest of the countries involved in WWI) but if they were paid in exchange for their privately held gold then it was also a business sale.

People need to wake up and realize there are no governments anymore. There are only corporations.

[Jamesiv1]

Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

[Swordsmyth]

Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

And trial by combat is the remaining 1/10th.

[devil21]

And trial by combat is the remaining 1/10th.

If by combat you mean fighting in a courtroom over who the judge bangs the gavel in favor of, then yes. That's the 1/10 that actually matters, legally.