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Thread: Illegal Aliens : Victimless Crimes ? A Call for Open Borders ?

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    The homeland that is the USA includes people with various traits from all the other nations of the world. It's not a distinctly white homeland, for example. The great majority of immigrants to America don't destroy anyone's homeland.

    But even if we start from the point you seem to be coming from, then what about those who immigrate here whom you believe to share the traits that you believe belong to the people of this homeland? Does their immigration here constitute a crime that has victims? Or does only the immigration of people with traits that differ from the people of this homeland constitute a crime with victims?

    If the former, then I don't see how your mention of those traits bears any relevance to the discussion. But if the latter, then it must not be the act of immigration itself that constitutes the crime, but some other factors.
    Two important traits:

    1 Believe in liberty
    2 Follow the rules (before you go anarchist on me just remember that the NAP is a rule)
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    I'm more trying to focus on the word "victim." And yes, I am working with a definition of "crime" as something that has a victim. This is the true sense of a crime defined by natural law, as opposed to a make-believe crime that is merely declared a crime by a government fiat, but is in fact a victimless non-crime.

    Something may be undesirable (which is subjective) without being a violation of anyone's rights, and thus, even if undesirable, is still victimless.



    But the USA doesn't have a people united in blood, language, or culture. Anybody from anywhere can immigrate here and find that there are already people here of the same blood, language, and culture as themselves.
    We do have a culture that is unique, liberty culture.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  4. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We do have a culture that is unique, liberty culture.
    Liberty culture is broad enough to encompass the cultures of people from all over the world that are vastly different from one another.

  5. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Liberty culture is broad enough to encompass the cultures of people from all over the world that are vastly different from one another.
    Only if they share a fundamental belief in liberty, few if any do.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    I'm more trying to focus on the word "victim." And yes, I am working with a definition of "crime" as something that has a victim. This is the true sense of a crime defined by natural law, as opposed to a make-believe crime that is merely declared a crime by a government fiat, but is in fact a victimless non-crime.

    Something may be undesirable (which is subjective) without being a violation of anyone's rights, and thus, even if undesirable, is still victimless.



    But the USA doesn't have a people united in blood, language, or culture. Anybody from anywhere can immigrate here and find that there are already people here of the same blood, language, and culture as themselves.
    Were there any victims of the colonization of North America by Europeans? Why or why not?

    You are wrong about the historical makeup of the population of the United States. See: the United States Naturalization Act of 1790.

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by AdamL View Post
    Were there any victims of the colonization of North America by Europeans? Why or why not?
    Not the colonization in and of itself, no. There were crimes committed in the process of colonizing the continent. But they can be separated from the mere act of coming here.

  8. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by AdamL View Post
    You are wrong about the historical makeup of the population of the United States. See: the United States Naturalization Act of 1790.
    That was naturalization, which is about citizenship, not just being present in the land.

    Nothing I've said in this thread about immigration has suggested that all immigrants should be citizens.

    Also, I never mentioned "historical makeup." When I referred to the bloods, languages, and cultures of America, I was obviously talking about what obtains today. I think the reason you brought up historical makeup is so that you could somehow translate the criteria of the 1790 Naturalization Act to 2019. But to do that you have to skip over what has come between then and now, including other acts related to naturalization, like the 14th Amendment. Now, like it or not, you're stuck with nonwhite citizens as an existing given. And the bloods, languages, and cultures of those nonwhites are just as much the blood, language, and culture of America as those of any whites are.

    ETA: Also, while the Naturalization Act of 1790 did use "blood" (in the sense that you clearly intend) to exclude some people from citizenship, like blacks, Asians, and American Indians, it still didn't recognize any unique "blood" as that of this country, and as far as I know also included no criteria at all limiting citizenship to people with one specific language and culture.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 03-09-2019 at 04:30 PM.

  9. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Not the colonization in and of itself, no. There were crimes committed in the process of colonizing the continent. But they can be separated from the mere act of coming here.
    The mere act of coming here ultimately resulted in the Indian tribes losing their homeland. Is that enough to constitute being a victim or is it not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    That was naturalization, which is about citizenship, not just being present in the land.

    Nothing I've said in this thread about immigration has suggested that all immigrants should be citizens.

    Also, I never mentioned "historical makeup." When I referred to the bloods, languages, and cultures of America, I was obviously talking about what obtains today. I think the reason you brought up historical makeup is so that you could somehow translate the criteria of the 1790 Naturalization Act to 2019. But to do that you have to skip over what has come between then and now, including other acts related to naturalization, like the 14th Amendment. Now, like it or not, you're stuck with nonwhite citizens as an existing given. And the bloods, languages, and cultures of those nonwhites are just as much the blood, language, and culture of America as those of any whites are.

    ETA: Also, while the Naturalization Act of 1790 did use "blood" (in the sense that you clearly intend) to exclude some people from citizenship, like blacks, Asians, and American Indians, it still didn't recognize any unique "blood" as that of this country, and as far as I know also included no criteria at all limiting citizenship to people with one specific language and culture.
    OK, forget about history. The United States is still (barely) a majority white, English speaking country and I would like to keep it that way.



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  11. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    ALL of them? Every single one? Without exception?
    ?


    : )

  12. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Yes, and all those are crimes with victims.

    But what about illegal immigrants who don't commit those crimes and don't collect welfare, ...


    You know any ?

  13. #131
    Coming here without our permission is a crime, which is why I still call them Illegal Immigrants, not this Undocumented Citizen propaganda speak thats spouted by the Ministry of Truth.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  14. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Liberty culture is broad enough to encompass the cultures of people from all over the world that are vastly different from one another.
    No Korea , a wonderfully , splendid case in point....

  15. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Coming here without our permission is a crime, which is why I still call them Illegal Immigrants, not this Undocumented Citizen propaganda speak thats spouted by the Ministry of Truth.
    True, and it doesn't seem to bother the Open Society cabal that most illegals draw welfare , and that
    is just a tiny area of how they burden the US.

  16. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    True, and it doesn't seem to bother the Open Society cabal that most illegals draw welfare , and that
    is just a tiny area of how they burden the US.
    Yep. We can have open borders, or welfare, but not both. Right now, it seems that the US is Mexico's Welfare System. They dont send us their best and brightest, we get the "cream of the crap" not the "cream of the crop". If we didnt have our Welfare / Warfare State, I would be more accepting of totally Open Borders as that is what it means to be truly free. We just are not at that point yet. Right now, we are headed toward whats called the Cloward Piven Strategy, which, in short, embraces Socialism and full on Welfare. They pointed out that overloading a state's Welfare System can collapse that society, especially when the cultures are incompatible. The incompatibility that I think is currently taking place is that people migrating here do not have any value of our culture, only our welfare, thus, they import their own culture to the point where it systematically replaces our own culture. If we did not offer welfare, then those that wanted to come here would be coming because they wanted to be a part of our culture, not replace it with Welfare, which is what we are getting.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  17. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Yep. We can have open borders, or welfare, but not both. Right now, it seems that the US is Mexico's Welfare System. They dont send us their best and brightest, we get the "cream of the crap" not the "cream of the crop". If we didnt have our Welfare / Warfare State, I would be more accepting of totally Open Borders as that is what it means to be truly free. We just are not at that point yet. Right now, we are headed toward whats called the Cloward Piven Strategy, which, in short, embraces Socialism and full on Welfare. They pointed out that overloading a state's Welfare System can collapse that society, especially when the cultures are incompatible. The incompatibility that I think is currently taking place is that people migrating here do not have any value of our culture, only our welfare, thus, they import their own culture to the point where it systematically replaces our own culture. If we did not offer welfare, then those that wanted to come here would be coming because they wanted to be a part of our culture, not replace it with Welfare, which is what we are getting.
    We would still need some controls because they would come for our wealth without understanding what created it and try to enact welfare and socialism like the culture they were raised in.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  18. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We would still need some controls because they would come for our wealth without understanding what created it and try to enact welfare and socialism like the culture they were raised in.
    Thats reasonable. Just apply for citizenship. No waiting, reasonable limitations, such as no outstanding warrants in your home country, things like that. My frustration with our current situation is that is what is happening, they DO have outstanding warrants and come here to escape and avoid taking responsibility for their actions at home. Not that their countries are perfect, but if youre wanted for murder, why do they think they can just come here?
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.



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  20. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by AdamL View Post
    The mere act of coming here ultimately resulted in the Indian tribes losing their homeland.
    No it didn't. Their loss of homeland required many other things beyond that, things that we can justly condemn as crimes without condemning the mere act of peacefully setting foot on some land in the Western Hemisphere.

  21. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Yep. We can have open borders, or welfare, but not both.
    If this is true, then it's a very strong point in favor of having open borders.

    That is, unless you like welfare.

  22. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Yep. We can have open borders, or welfare, but not both. Right now, it seems that the US is Mexico's Welfare System. They dont send us their best and brightest, we get the "cream of the crap" not the "cream of the crop". If we didnt have our Welfare / Warfare State, I would be more accepting of totally Open Borders as that is what it means to be truly free. We just are not at that point yet. Right now, we are headed toward whats called the Cloward Piven Strategy, which, in short, embraces Socialism and full on Welfare. They pointed out that overloading a state's Welfare System can collapse that society, especially when the cultures are incompatible. The incompatibility that I think is currently taking place is that people migrating here do not have any value of our culture, only our welfare, thus, they import their own culture to the point where it systematically replaces our own culture. If we did not offer welfare, then those that wanted to come here would be coming because they wanted to be a part of our culture, not replace it with Welfare, which is what we are getting.

    ''We are Mexico's welfare system''
    I love it, so true.

    Alex Jones had guests on some time back, or it may have been Mike Rivero, collapse the system
    through welfare, then rebuild in socialism etc......

    We can't have open borders though in my view, who has open borders that is a utopia today ?

  23. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    If this is true, then it's a very strong point in favor of having open borders.

    That is, unless you like welfare.
    The strongest 'points' in favor of open borders is ''third world shtholes'' and Globalist Socialism.

  24. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    ... the mere act of peacefully setting foot on some land in the Western Hemisphere.
    Doesn't that just give everyone a nice warm, fuzzy , puppy-dog feeling.

    You might want to give the parents a call and explain how this works.

    The last Mother's son in this video was shot/killed at a traffic stop by an
    illegal that had been convicted and deported 4 times prior.


  25. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    Doesn't that just give everyone a nice warm, fuzzy , puppy-dog feeling.

    You might want to give the parents a call and explain how this works.

    The last Mother's son in this video was shot/killed at a traffic stop by an
    illegal that had been convicted and deported 4 times prior.

    The screen cap says murder.

    Murder is a crime that directly harms victims.

    The people who are guilty of this crime are those who commit the murder.

    Someone who overstays a visa and doesn't murder anyone is not guilty of murder.

  26. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Thats reasonable. Just apply for citizenship. No waiting, reasonable limitations, such as no outstanding warrants in your home country, things like that. My frustration with our current situation is that is what is happening, they DO have outstanding warrants and come here to escape and avoid taking responsibility for their actions at home. Not that their countries are perfect, but if youre wanted for murder, why do they think they can just come here?
    Most of that carp is caused by the WoD- plus the WoT.

    Get rid of that & the welfare/warfare state & everyone would be fairly peaceful, overall.
    There is no spoon.

  27. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    No Korea , a wonderfully , splendid case in point....
    Which was caused- on purpose- by the US Empire.
    There is no spoon.



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  29. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Coming here without our permission is a crime, which is why I still call them Illegal Immigrants, not this Undocumented Citizen propaganda speak thats spouted by the Ministry of Truth.
    Everything you just said opposes liberty and the NAP.

    Just because the leftists breathe air does not mean that we should not. Just because communists eat food does not mean that we should not. Just because the opposition believes in the right to freely travel does not mean that we should not.

    Even RP has commented about the duopoly, which is meant to divide and pit.

    Liberty and the NAP support the right of freedom of travel.

    To "demand permission", or become "documented" by the state, otherwise one is termed "illegal", is nothing but STATIST rhetoric.

    Perhaps "Liberty 101" is not over certain individual's heads.

    1. Have you read the Mission statement? 2. Do you REJECT the mission statement? 3. Why are you here on RonPaulForums?


    I can't stand when people shout at their top of their lungs STATIST solutions while using a timid undertone tell us welfare can't be ended or is and impractical solution.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

  30. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Coming here without our permission is a crime, which is why I still call them Illegal Immigrants, not this Undocumented Citizen propaganda speak thats spouted by the Ministry of Truth.
    ''You cannot give Reputation to the same post twice.''

  31. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    The screen cap says murder.

    Murder is a crime that directly harms victims.

    The people who are guilty of this crime are those who commit the murder.

    Someone who overstays a visa and doesn't murder anyone is not guilty of murder.



    Now its all about OVERSTAYED VISAS?



  32. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Everything you just said opposes liberty and the NAP.

    Just because the leftists breathe air does not mean that we should not. Just because communists eat food does not mean that we should not. Just because the opposition believes in the right to freely travel does not mean that we should not.

    Even RP has commented about the duopoly, which is meant to divide and pit.

    Liberty and the NAP support the right of freedom of travel.

    To "demand permission", or become "documented" by the state, otherwise one is termed "illegal", is nothing but STATIST rhetoric.

    Perhaps "Liberty 101" is not over certain individual's heads.

    1. Have you read the Mission statement? 2. Do you REJECT the mission statement? 3. Why are you here on RonPaulForums?


    I can't stand when people shout at their top of their lungs STATIST solutions while using a timid undertone tell us welfare can't be ended or is and impractical solution.
    I dont think it does. Change the scale and see if things change at all. Instead of country, lets try the scale of just a single persons home. Should a single person have Self Authority to say who they will or will not allow into their home? Should a person have the Self Authority to invite people into their home with some reasonable restrictions? Such as having a party and saying "please stay out of my office", or "introduce yourself when you come inside"?

    I dont think there is anything Aggressive about being Defensive. We arent going into their country telling them how to live; we are telling them there are some reasonable restrictions if they want to come into our homes. What is happening is that the Govt is declaring that you may not lock your front door, say no to them taking your food or other possessions, and, wants to give them Permission to Vote so they can vote on evicting you from your own house so they can live there for free at your expense. Why? Because we arent dumb enough to vote for them, but the immigrants that stand to prosper by stealing from you and I stand to gain immensely.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  33. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Everything you just said opposes liberty and the NAP.

    Just because the leftists breathe air does not mean that we should not. Just because communists eat food does not mean that we should not. Just because the opposition believes in the right to freely travel does not mean that we should not.

    Even RP has commented about the duopoly, which is meant to divide and pit.

    Liberty and the NAP support the right of freedom of travel.

    To "demand permission", or become "documented" by the state, otherwise one is termed "illegal", is nothing but STATIST rhetoric.

    Perhaps "Liberty 101" is not over certain individual's heads.

    1. Have you read the Mission statement? 2. Do you REJECT the mission statement? 3. Why are you here on RonPaulForums?


    I can't stand when people shout at their top of their lungs STATIST solutions while using a timid undertone tell us welfare can't be ended or is and impractical solution.
    I looked up NAP, all I got was Auto Parts and Hammocks, but I also took one .

  34. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    I dont think it does. Change the scale and see if things change at all. Instead of country, lets try the scale of just a single persons home. Should a single person have Self Authority to say who they will or will not allow into their home? Should a person have the Self Authority to invite people into their home with some reasonable restrictions? Such as having a party and saying "please stay out of my office", or "introduce yourself when you come inside"?

    I dont think there is anything Aggressive about being Defensive. We arent going into their country telling them how to live; we are telling them there are some reasonable restrictions if they want to come into our homes. What is happening is that the Govt is declaring that you may not lock your front door, say no to them taking your food or other possessions, and, wants to give them Permission to Vote so they can vote on evicting you from your own house so they can live there for free at your expense. Why? Because we arent dumb enough to vote for them, but the immigrants that stand to prosper by stealing from you and I stand to gain immensely.
    Anarchists don't believe in groups or group territory.................................except when it comes to foreigners, foreigners are allowed to have groups and group territory.
    They also believe it is better to live under a communist regime imposed by foreigners and complain than to establish a minimal government to keep the communists out.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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